Do you want to live in a bubble?

[Thinker]

I completely agree with sister Malaikah. I had a job interview recently and I refused to shake the hand of my interviewer.

Thus, there is no distinction between muslim and non-muslim, whether young or old, western or not the ruling is the same. I'm sure you would not want other men to touch your wife, nor would you like a young school boy to touch any part of your daughter so lets not have double standards.

I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134270763-qur-hadith-scholars-2.html).

 

[Thinker]

Thank you all for replying to my post here.

It has been said that if we understand each other we will stand a better chance of living a peaceful and harmonious co-existence. If that is correct it goes both ways and that includes (in my humble opinion) all Muslims understanding the effect that the actions of a few fundamentalists have on the perceptions of their neighbours. It is also been said that ‘we shouldn’t judge a book by its cover’ but that’s been said because rightly or wrongly we DO judge people by the way we look and the way we act. And, I would suggest that because a westerner says he understands and respects your choice not to shake his hand it is because culturally our first priority is to be polite and avoid embarrassment; in reality they don’t understand a religion that forbids a gesture which means peace, goodwill and friendship. In going to such extremes (and in my opinion not shaking hands is extreme) you (again in my opinion) damage your own image and the image of Islam.

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’ I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door. Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers. And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

The other thing I am struck by here with you is the lack of humour. A couple of my deleted posts were (again in my opinion, harmless humour) and were deleted as unnecessary or in the wrong place and when I’ve asked for clarification I have been told humour is allowed but only in the appropriate section (a section of the forum for humour!!). I have read some posts where the contributors appear to be in a struggle to purge yourselves of anything trivial, fun or humorous less that takes you away from the pain you feel you must put yourself through to prove to God that you are earnest and serious. Of course there’s nothing wrong in that but is that the impression you want to portray?

Of course Muslims contributing here might not be representative of the Muslim community, I don’t know as I have no contact with any Muslims (other than my dentist).

All that said, I am pleased that so far my posts here haven’t been deleted and I am particularly pleased that many of the posts here show an understanding of the points I am trying to make.

Thanks again

Thinker

 

[Thinker]

And honestly, I can't believe you sat still calling us fundamentalists and acting like you are the victim here.

One of the points I have been trying to make is that (in my opinion) Islam is the victim because of the image given to it by those amongst you who pursue a fundamental and radical way of life.

 

[Uthman]

Hi Thinker,

I would just like to respond to one of your points.

I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

A couple of points to make here. Firstly, it's not like a refusal to shake somebody's hand is illegal in this country. It's perfectly possible to be a good British citizen whilst still observing religious practices. Secondly, you must understand that many people on the forum are quite young, so we aren't in this country by choice. Many of us are here simply because our parents decided to come to this country. Personally, I'm seriously considering moving (in the future) to a different country where it is easier to practise my faith.

Regards

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134270763-qur-hadith-scholars-2.html).

Islam forbids the things that lead to haram and regards them as being haraam too. So if something as little as a hand shake can provoke desires then this is forbidden because it's something that leads to something that is haram. So if either type of touching (which you mention) leads to something that is haram then it is without a doubt haram regardless of which one is more obvious.

One of the points I have been trying to make is that (in my opinion) Islam is the victim because of the image given to it by those amongst you who pursue a fundamental and radical way of life.

Islam is presented to you clearly, and there is no one here who is following this religion without evidences from al-Qur'an and sunnah.

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (i.e. Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much"

[al-Ahzaab 33:21]

Rather, I would urge you to look past your limited views to understand the Islamic perspective and not what corrisponds to ones own standards. After all, to err is human.

 

[glo]

Thinker, you may find that a certain amount of fun and banter returns to LI after Ramadan.
During the month of Ramadan Muslims are meant to focus on their spiritual path and try to abstain from things which may be a distraction from that (such as meaningless gossip, heated debates, and yes fun too). That's why several sections are closed at the moment.

I hope you stick around.

 

[S_87]

Thank you all for replying to my post here.

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’ I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door. Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers. And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

The other thing I am struck by here with you is the lack of humour. A couple of my deleted posts were (again in my opinion, harmless humour) and were deleted as unnecessary or in the wrong place and when I’ve asked for clarification I have been told humour is allowed but only in the appropriate section (a section of the forum for humour!!). I have read some posts where the contributors appear to be in a struggle to purge yourselves of anything trivial, fun or humorous less that takes you away from the pain you feel you must put yourself through to prove to God that you are earnest and serious. Of course there’s nothing wrong in that but is that the impression you want to portray?

Of course Muslims contributing here might not be representative of the Muslim community, I don’t know as I have no contact with any Muslims (other than my dentist).



Thinker

To each their own to be honest, and muslims posting here are representitive to the muslim community because we ourselves are muslims. We are mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, husbands, wives, doctors, teachers, lawyers, students...and the list goes on. We are muslim with all that. We have limits within our actions. We laugh (yes we do) we cry, were serious and silly- we're human.

I know you may not mean to do so, but the way you talk makes it sound as if muslims are a different species.
So what if we dont know to shake a member of the opposite genders hand? its not the end of the world. if you think thats extreme then you dont know what extreme is. :?

 

[Najm]

Peace

Id like to point out, this is only my opinion...

Depends what the word bubble implies. Does bubble mean western way of life? Does bubble mean a society of britain?:?

Your bubble may not be the same as anyone's, neither may be mine.The only bubble that im living in, is the bubble of Islam: the divine way of life. It is whats best for humanity as a whole As humans we are weak, and we are learning to strive. Only the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) is the perfect man, and we should do everything we can to be like him. If he didnt shake hands with the opposite gender, then im not, if he didnt drink, then im not, if he didnt slander, then im not.....

When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) made drinking haram, there was a companion who was drinking, who just found out, what do you think he did?.....Do you think he questioned?....Of course not, he spat out what he was drinking. This is how we should be. This is what people will start to do when their deen is stronger.

Sometimes people have to just accept it, rather than understand, who are we to question our lord? When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) made pork haram, the companions didnt question it, even though all the people at that time loved have pork. They accepted it, through time, through science, we find out why pork haram.

A person chooses, what they want to do. They may do whatever they want in this world. If someone doesnt want to shake their hand thats fine, other things such as a greeting is suffices. If you are understanding, then you would know we are not trying to offend you.

This post is something i ask myself, and then you...:rollseyes

Lets not dwell on this issue any longer and move on

Forgive me , if i said anything incorrect, or didnt make sense. or offended anyone

Peace....
NAJM
P.s im deeply sorry for not being able to find the references:-[

 

[dilkadr]

Undoubtedly there will be some who do come across as wanting to live in a bubble, and to be honest it bugs me just as much as it bugs you. If they want to be insulting to the culture they live in, then that it isn't cool. However, if we refuse to shake hands with the opposite gender because they are the opposite gender, I think that is fair. We respect them all the same, we just wish to not shake their hand. I do shake hands / hug female non Muslims though, and as many already know, most of my friends are non Muslim.

This also happens to be a private run forum, and the admins created the rules, which have to be abided by. If your posts were deleted, then chances are they were deleted for a reason stated and if not stated then send a PM to the mod who deleted it and ask him/her why they did that.


I don't get that. :? What type of practical / modern ideas are being rejected?

You are lucky if you have not came across such situations...

Just look around in the Muslims' world especially in India-Pakistan-Afghanistan... Until now forced marriages are in practice; people are kill girl child for a numerous reasons - most horrible is honor killings. Not allowing women to drive or travel regardless of her specific situations and a lot of other things are there - and yes... until now [we] Muslim have not developed a financial system except blaming existing system of Riba...

There is a common answer to all such things - Islam is not responsible for individual actions. I agree Islam is the best system, but [we] followers of Islam are not the best people.

 

[dilkadr]

I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134270763-qur-hadith-scholars-2.html).

Interesting, BTW on what grounds,,, In Sura Tauba it is told Non-Muslims should be expelled from the Holy City of Makkah... But on what ground Muslims can behave like this - it is pretty mush shocking to me... I wonder how narrow minded are we... Islam is peace and love, isn't it???

 

[S_87]

You are lucky if you have not came across such situations...

Just look around in the Muslims' world especially in India-Pakistan-Afghanistan... Until now forced marriages are in practice; people are kill girl child for a numerous reasons - most horrible is honor killings. Not allowing women to drive or travel regardless of her specific situations and a lot of other things are there - and yes... until now [we] Muslim have not developed a financial system except blaming existing system of Riba...

There is a common answer to all such things - Islam is not responsible for individual actions. I agree Islam is the best system, but [we] followers of Islam are not the best people.

whats wrong with a woman needing a mahram to travel?

 

[جوري]

whats wrong with a woman needing a mahram to travel?

Nothing is wrong.. but one might not always be readily available..

 

[Chuck]

Why shaking hands is such a big issue? End of the world is coming?

 

[Malaikah]

In going to such extremes (and in my opinion not shaking hands is extreme) you (again in my opinion) damage your own image and the image of Islam.

We aren't going to change Islam just to make you happy (especially not over something as simple as a hand shake!!).

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’

Tolerant? You certainly aren't showing that side here.

I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door.

And now you are wrongly accusing us. Judgemental, much? Who gave you the power of being able to see into the hearts of others?

Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers.

That is so not true I don't even know what to say. And it certainly doesn't apply to the hand shaking issue - especially since the majority of Muslim scholars have always deemed it to be forbidden.

And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

Judgemental again. Where do you want us to go? To the Muslim lands, where people as un-Islamic as they are in the West? We have every right to live in this country - many of us were born here. Disagreeing with some practises does not mean we have to leave.

 

[Muslima Islam]

I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.

So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?

I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?

Okay, Thinker...

you may believe or “come to a conclusion” that all the Muslims at LI.I want to live in a bubble. But I for one personally cant stand when people assume, also jump to conclusions. It is not that we (Muslims) don't like being asked questions. Of course people are curious and are going to ask questions when they want to learn more about another religion. But it is the fact hat you ask them in an impolite way that offenses people. You should not go on with arrogance because no one likes that. I totally understand you are just questioning certain things, but you have to realize that people are passionate about their religion.

“So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?”

(With all do respect) Don't flatter yourself. For many years our religion has been nit picked by many others and have portraiture a negative reputation. So when someone like you comes along its not “Threatening” or “disturbing” its just played out. I hope you change your ways and realize that kindness is the key to getting people to open up to you.

 

[doorster]

We aren't going to change Islam just to make you happy (especially not over something as simple as a hand shake!!).



Tolerant? You certainly aren't showing that side here.



And now you are wrongly accusing us. Judgemental, much? Who gave you the power of being able to see into the hearts of others?



That is so not true I don't even know what to say. And it certainly doesn't apply to the hand shaking issue - especially since the majority of Muslim scholars have always deemed it to be forbidden.



Judgemental again. Where do you want us to go? To the Muslim lands, where people as un-Islamic as they are in the West? We have every right to live in this country - many of us were born here. Disagreeing with some practises does not mean we have to leave.

Bravo! and jazakillah khair

by the way do you remember him butting into the thread about an Iranian not believing in Islam because some mulah was allegedly insulting him?

and how insulting he was to our dead of Indian wars?

now all he has to do is to play the victim of "unfair" mods who delete his posts, and all the approval seeking creeps crawl out of their hidey holes and start apologising to him.

 

[Mikayeel]

Thread closed, I will reopen it after ramadan if the thread opener wants so.