Does Evilness around the World disprove God?

[aamirsaab]

Ok I'm going to simplify this as best as I can:

Due to humans lack of knowledge, we at times in our life have what we define as a choice i.e. to take action X or action Y. At this moment in time, we have a choice.

God, being all-knowing and all-seeing, KNOWS for a fact that I will take action X out of the two possible actions in this particular case. Since, however, humans are not all-knowing, we are convinced that we have a choice in the matter.

Since choice relies on perception, and our perception as humans is miniscule compared to God, we have what is defined as a choice. Regardless of what God has foreseen, we still make choices - we do not know what action God has forseen until we instigate or initiate the action. Thus our choice is not affected by God's knowledge, thus we have choice.

With a greater perception, we would not be under an illusion of choice - instead it would be one action or one choice. However, as stated before, our perception is limited. Therefore, God is indeed all-knowing but, this does not affect our ability to chose since we do not know what God has forseen. Our ability to chose ends after an action (or choice) has been taken - it is then and only then do we know what action God had forseen, but by then it doesn't matter since the action has occured.

 

[Trumble]

You seem to be denying free will in saying that the degree of illusory 'choice' decreases with increased perception? Surely free will cannot be dependent on the extent of our perception? If it does the logical conclusion must be that a being with perfect perception (i.e omniscience, i.e God) must therefore have zero free will?!

 

[Skavau]

SKAVAU

this thread is gna get nowhere unless u listen to me and everyone else and understand that omniscience has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEEING...he hasnt seen our lives before..

God being omniscient has seen our lives before.

why wont u accept that???

Why won't I accept that there is no contradiction between Omniscience and Free-Will or that "omniscience has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEEING"?

If you mean the actual contradiction though - I have not been given sufficient reason to believe there is no contradiction.

scared?

Not at all.

Why would I be?

i agree...but my friend skavau constinusly states that 'all seeing' and 'all knowing' are equal and the same...hence his arguments tumble...

No I don't.

I say that God's infallible foreknowledge (and general knowledge) undermines the idea of free-will. I do not even say anything about 'seeing'.

this implies that we hav lived our lives twice...

No it doesn't. It implies that God has the infinite capacity to merely have knowledge of our lives.

do u really expect anyone to believ that we are living our lives for the second time?

No. That would be illogical.

then how does that explain that he has seen our lives and future before,,,

You are essentially disputing God's omniscience.

An interesting standpoint, but it would remove the contradiction.

he has not seen our future...

Being proclaimed as omniscient, I would indeed say otherwise.

With a greater perception, we would not be under an illusion of choice - instead it would be one action or one choice. However, as stated before, our perception is limited. Therefore, God is indeed all-knowing but, this does not affect our ability to chose since we do not know what God has forseen.

You're still asserting an illusion of choice.

 

[aamirsaab]

You seem to be denying free will in saying that the degree of illusory 'choice' decreases with increased perception?

Indeed, since choice is perceptive. From God's point of view, what humans consider as choice is not a choice.

Surely free will cannot be dependent on the extent of our perception? If it does the logical conclusion must be that a being with perfect perception (i.e omniscience, i.e God) must therefore have zero free will?!

Free-will is the ability to think i.e make choices. To God, it is not a case of choice, it is a case of knowing everything thus there is no choice in that sense. Since we do not know the full logic behind His actions (at most, we may know pieces), I cannot state whether or not He has free-will simply because my own perception is limited.

You're still asserting an illusion of choice.

Because you are still asserting that God's omniscience denies free will. If that is the case, then there cannot be a choice, only an illusion of choice or if you really want you can call it destiny.

 

[sevgi]

and something that hasnt happened yet isnt 100% knowable.

yes...we are speaking abt two differnt attributes...omniscience embraces the future.but he does not have to see it to know it...he created the future remember???(to us)

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

may Allah reward aamirsaab and MD Mashud for their patience, the repetition of some members on this thread has put me off from replying, i think its put Mashud off aswell ;D

 

[sevgi]

God being omniscient has seen our lives before.


Why won't I accept that there is no contradiction between Omniscience and Free-Will or that "omniscience has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEEING"?

If you mean the actual contradiction though - I have not been given sufficient reason to believe there is no contradiction.


Not at all.

Why would I be?


No I don't.

I say that God's infallible foreknowledge (and general knowledge) undermines the idea of free-will. I do not even say anything about 'seeing'.


No it doesn't. It implies that God has the infinite capacity to merely have knowledge of our lives.


No. That would be illogical.


You are essentially disputing God's omniscience.

An interesting standpoint, but it would remove the contradiction.


Being proclaimed as omniscient, I would indeed say otherwise.


You're still asserting an illusion of choice.

there is too much contradiction in ur replies...it hurts my brain...

all seing and all knowing are essentially seperate and have nothing to do with eachother...

please read my debate with isambard...where he left is where we stand...

so God is omniscient and there is free will in islam.

the choices we make are not pre-determined by god....they are pre meditated though...god knows but doesnt see them.and doesnt intervene....we make judgements and choices for ourselves.

tahst all....

 

[Skavau]

there is too much contradiction in ur replies...it hurts my brain...

That's a shame.

What contradiction would this be?

all seing and all knowing are essentially seperate and have nothing to do with eachother...

Omniscience means to know everything infinitely. If you know everything then you therefore also know all events. A human choice is an event.

If you are saying that God does not know our future and therefore loses omniscience then you do remove the contradiction with free-will. You also though undermine God's ability.

 

[sevgi]

That's a shame.

What contradiction would this be?
i cnt be bothered really...they are contradictions to me bt not to u...i dnt wana go into it...nt trying to put u off....

Omniscience means to know everything infinitely. If you know everything then you therefore also know all events. A human choice is an event.

yes...but u dnt need to see it to know it...thats where the attributes are seperate.

If you are saying that God does not know our future and therefore loses omniscience then you do remove the contradiction with free-will. You also though undermine God's ability.

he knows it...hasnt seen it...doesnt have to see it..he can know it by jst being omniscient...his attribute of seeing doesnt need to assist him.

 

[Skavau]

he knows it...hasnt seen it...doesnt have to see it..he can know it by jst being omniscient...his attribute of seeing doesnt need to assist him.

His infinite foreknowledge of what will happen means then that nothing can happen contrary to what he has seen. You're just arguing the mechanism in how God knows what we will do. You're not actually disputing it.

 

[sevgi]

His infinite foreknowledge of what will happen means then that nothing can happen contrary to what he has seen. You're just arguing the mechanism in how God knows what we will do. You're not actually disputing it.

u used seen again.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Atheists argue as if God exists He actually owes us something i.e. His existence and whatnot. Like He is supposed to do something for the mess that actually we caused in the first place. They think life is just for frolic.

They've seen Clash of the Titans and old Greek myth movies wherein the gods need mortals to worship them just to survive and exist, too many times and they're trying to drag us into the same mental quagmire they're in.

 

[Skavau]

u used seen again.

Right. Let me get this straight.

You have said, and I quote: "he knows it...hasnt seen it..." (I am assuming the context is referring God's knowledge concerning our future. The fact that you claim God knows it is no different really whatsoever than God having seen it. You are just playing with words here.

The contradiction still exists whether God has seen or knows. For purely practical reasons I do not distinguish between either words concerning God's omniscience because they both have the same result.

If God has seen infallibly all of our choices, then it is false that we could act contrary to such foresight (gained from 'seeing' our choices).

If God knows infallibly all of our choices, then it is false that we could act contrary to such knowledge (gained from being omniscient)

There is no different in the end result and the contradiction still exists.

What are you arguing about again?

Atheists argue as if God exists He actually owes us something i.e.

No. People who contest the traditional conception God argue according to the self-proclaimed definitions asserted to be of that God.

His existence and whatnot. Like He is supposed to do something for the mess that actually we caused in the first place.

Assuming of course that we did even have any ability to not cause the mess we 'caused' - which is what we are contesting right now.

Although being omniscient and omnibenevolent - why would God not?

They think life is just for frolic.

Considering a good portion of Atheists (I would imagine) consider this to be the only life - it is wise to make the very best of it.

They've seen Clash of the Titans and old Greek myth movies wherein the gods need mortals to worship them just to survive and exist, too many times and they're trying to drag us into the same mental quagmire they're in.

Except we're doing the opposite, we're considering the exact characteristics of the traditional theistic and then considering them. The fact that the Gods as you describe above need mortals to survive completely preclude them from any discussion - because that would certainly not be infinite or omnipotent.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Assuming of course that we did even have any ability to not cause the mess we 'caused' - which is what we are contesting right now.

Excuse me but on which world are you living in right now? There are people who cause problem and there are people who do not cause problem and there are people who solve problems.

Although being omniscient and omnibenevolent - why would God not?

I am even more surprised suddenly we can lay off all our problems and irresponsibilities at God's feet. Evil people murder innocent people and suddenly it's God's fault.

Considering a good portion of Atheists (I would imagine) consider this to be the only life - it is wise to make the very best of it.

I would hardly say frolic = best. That would be like flunking your tests just because you were tired having been boozing and organizing orgies all night and you say that is making best of your life. That kind of irresponsible behavior leads to the the attitude of Atheists when saying, "If God really exists why didn't He do such and such?"

Except we're doing the opposite, we're considering the exact characteristics of the traditional theistic and then considering them.

Traditional theistic means old dead Greek religions in this context. Please exclude Islam because we don't believe that God needs us just to survive and exist. Rather, we need Him because He created us and sustains us.

 

[sevgi]

Right. Let me get this straight.

You have said, and I quote: "he knows it...hasnt seen it..." (I am assuming the context is referring God's knowledge concerning our future. The fact that you claim God knows it is no different really whatsoever than God having seen it. You are just playing with words here.

no im not...there is a big difference between seeing and knowing...but isnt that the essential diff. between theists and atheists...we know what we dnt see...but atheists wont believ without seeing....
so i guess what is vital is yet again lost, even in this minor debate.if u cud diffrenciate these terms, u wud see this topic in a whole new light.

The contradiction still exists whether God has seen or knows. For purely practical reasons I do not distinguish between either words concerning God's omniscience because they both have the same result.

see above

If God has seen infallibly all of our choices, then it is false that we could act contrary to such foresight (gained from 'seeing' our choices).

see above


If God knows infallibly all of our choices, then it is false that we could act contrary to such knowledge (gained from being omniscient)

why? he doesnt intervene...him knowing it(not seeing) makes no difference to our choice making...

There is no different in the end result and the contradiction still exists.

does it really? i think this contradiction is in ur head only...and any other atheist right? so why dnt u try and be a little less unbiased, and look at it the way we look at it...then the contradiction will dissapear.

What are you arguing about again?

God is omniscient and respectively and independently all-seeing, and islam still has free will regardless.QUOTE]

peace

 

[Skavau]

Excuse me but on which world are you living in right now? There are people who cause problem and there are people who do not cause problem and there are people who solve problems.

This much is true.

I suggest you actually read some of my previous posts regarding the Islamic world view and free-will to gain some context of my statement.

I am even more surprised suddenly we can lay off all our problems and irresponsibilities at God's feet. Evil people murder innocent people and suddenly it's God's fault.

If God exists and if God is as described by Muslims/Christians then it is very much God's fault.

I would hardly say frolic = best.

I did not mean it in a literal sense.

That would be like flunking your tests just because you were tired having been boozing and organizing orgies all night and you say that is making best of your life.

Of course, deliberately misinterpreting what I meant is fine. I did not mean any of what you described above.

Traditional theistic means old dead Greek religions in this context. Please exclude Islam because we don't believe that God needs us just to survive and exist. Rather, we need Him because He created us and sustains us.

When I say 'Traditional Theistic' I am referring to the Christian, Islamic and Judaic conceptions of God.

no im not...there is a big difference between seeing and knowing...

Yes there is a difference between seeing and knowing.

But there is no difference in the end result of God's knowledge of our future, whether God be all-seeing or all-knowing. In either situation he knows or has seen (both infallibly) our future.

The contradiction therefore still exists.

so i guess what is vital is yet again lost, even in this minor debate.if u cud diffrenciate these terms, u wud see this topic in a whole new light.

I just did. The differentiation has absolutely no difference concerning this particular topic.

why? he doesnt intervene...him knowing it(not seeing) makes no difference to our choice making...

We've been through this. His infinite capacity to know our future means that we could not do contrary to such knowledge, therefore constraining free-will to only what God knows will happen.

does it really? i think this contradiction is in ur head only...and any other atheist right?

I know that you believe it is in my head. It is however not an exclusive criticism conducted by me or other Atheists. It is an old dilemma which has been discussed before.

so why dnt u try and be a little less unbiased, and look at it the way we look at it...then the contradiction will dissapear.

I just did. The way you look at it provides only word games. It does not actually remove the contradiction.

God is omniscient and respectively and independently all-seeing, and islam still has free will regardless.

So now you're asserting that God is all-seeing?

 

[sevgi]

Yes there is a difference between seeing and knowing.

But there is no difference in the end result of God's knowledge of our future, whether God be all-seeing or all-knowing. In either situation he knows or has seen (both infallibly) our future.

thats true...i wasnt arguing that anyway.
i just dnt agree that he has seen our future coz it bares no logic what so ever...its fairy tale talk to me....

The contradiction therefore still exists.

as long as u think that god uses these attributes to intervene...yes it does...
but to me...no.

I just did. The differentiation has absolutely no difference concerning this particular topic.

see above

We've been through this. His infinite capacity to know our future means that we could not do contrary to such knowledge, therefore constraining free-will to only what God knows will happen.

weve been through this before...and i keep asking...why?...why cant we do contrary to what he knows when he exerts no effort to intervene...?

I know that you believe it is in my head. It is however not an exclusive criticism conducted by me or other Atheists. It is an old dilemma which has been discussed before.

definitely...yes...i know...i just didnt think i needed to be that encompassing with my generalisation...sorry.

I just did. The way you look at it provides only word games. It does actually remove the contradiction.

i admire your unbiased effort

So now you're asserting that God is all-seeing?

i have been all along...did my mind skip a beat?

 

[Skavau]

i just dnt agree that he has seen our future coz it bares no logic what so ever..

It is completely logical. God is omniscient. If God is omniscient, God knows everything infallibly. God therefore knows my past, present and future.

as long as u think that god uses these attributes to intervene...yes it does...

No.

As long as God has omniscience.

why cant we do contrary to what he knows when he exerts no effort to intervene...?

Simple. I've posted how many times.

1. I have a choice between A and B.
2. God has seen that I will choose B.
3. I cannot not choose B because that would be contrary to God's knowledge and God cannot be wrong.
4. Therefore I can only 'choose' B.

Read through some of my earlier posts for similar explanations.

 

[sevgi]

It is completely logical. God is omniscient. If God is omniscient, God knows everything infallibly. God therefore knows my past, present and future.

yes...i was talking about 'seeing'..being illogical..nt knowing...

No.

As long as God has omniscience.

lol...im gettn sick of this...

Simple. I've posted how many times.

1. I have a choice between A and B.
2. God has seen that I will choose B.
3. I cannot not choose B because that would be contrary to God's knowledge and God cannot be wrong.
4. Therefore I can only 'choose' B.

Read through some of my earlier posts for similar explanations.

yes yes yes..i feel like im in my first year philo lectures again..look..i could pull out a whole lot of aquinas to throttle all that away..its philosophy...u can dispute all day...and prove and disprove anything....its a matter of 'playing with words'...
gods knowledge encompasses what we will choose...he is not wrong in knowing what we will choose...

i dnt see how that undermines his omnisc. or our free will..
maybe im dumb....

 

[Md Mashud]

Skavau and others, as you can see, this arguement does go in circles and circles.

However, I did watch some debates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j0a4Tkjwps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aiAtnTJxRo

It should be noted, that one of the atheists, who had indepth knowledge of Physics/sciences, did actually mention at one point on this 2.5 hours lecture

"I don't disagree that freewill and omniscience can work in harmony, my question is to do with ..."

Which went on to go about, why God does not stop evil and accountability - but the point was, even though this guy was atheist, believed in multiverse, evolution from apes to humans, he had the logical capability to see that, freewill and omniscience do not contradict.

To say it does, seems to be a primitive arguement, even for atheists!