Does the Bible need a defense?

[Trumble]

Source: http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr17a.htm

Woodrow!

'March of the Titans - A History of the White Race'. Did you actually check that site? When I said credible source I meant a respected historian of early Christianity or a scholarly journal, not a bunch of neo-Nazi white supremicists!!

That is what I asked. Where are they? All we have is some Greek writings that say the Apostles said something. But, Where is the verification they said anything?

There is no 'verification'. Any more than there is verification that the Buddha said anything. Or that the the angel Gabriel spoke to Mohammed. In all three cases people believe those things happened because the religious teachings to which they were exposed make sense to them. It's about faith, not 'verification'.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow!

'March of the Titans - A History of the White Race'. Did you actually check that site? When I said credible source I meant a respected historian of early Christianity or a scholarly journal, not a bunch of neo-Nazi white supremicists!!




There is no 'verification'. Any more than there is verification that the Buddha said anything. Or that the the angel Gabriel spoke to Mohammed. In all three cases people believe those things happened because the religious teachings to which they were exposed make sense to them. It's about faith, not 'verification'.

I deliberatly selected that site as it definetly is not pro-Islam. This concept of current Christianity being astray from What Christianity was supposed to be is not an exclusive Islamic thing.

 

[Trumble]

I deliberatly selected that site as it definetly is not pro-Islam. This concept of current Christianity being astray from What Christianity was supposed to be is not an exclusive Islamic thing.

I never claimed that it was. But is that really the best you can do to support your claim? The issue is not who is, or is not, making that claim; it is whether the claim is true, or at least if there is any credible evidence to support it.

 

[Woodrow]

I never claimed that it was. But is that really the best you can do to support your claim? The issue is not who is, or is not, making that claim; it is whether the claim is true, or at least if there is any credible evidence to support it.

It is in agreement with what I have studied about Greek Mythology. I am trying to find some very short concepts about Greek and Mid Eastern Mythology. For those desiring to learn more about Greek mythology i suggest they take a course in it.


The similarities betwenn the mythological beliefs and Christianity are very hard to ignore.


the worship of Mithras and Mithraism is a study in itself. The link I gave although of dubious source did give a good synopsis of Mitraism ,

Here are some more links for further reading. It is hard to find any one link that is complete.

this first link does not show much more than the fact that Mithras was worshiped in Rome in the Year 208 and had a following.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm

some of the earlier mideastern practices of Mithraism

There was a hymn to Mithra in the Zarathustrian holy work, the Avesta. It is a beautiful hymn or Yast, and Ilya Gershevitch is right to lament that it is not more widely known. In it, Ahura Mazda addresses the prophet Zarathustra, saying that when he created Mithra, he made him as worthy of worship as himself. This accolade is given to no other Amenta Spenta or Yazata. Historians have argued that this distinction indicates only that the cult of Mithra was so important that Zarathustra had to give its god special concessions to convert its members. Some have even argued the popularity from the concessions. But there is another theological reason for the special attention given to Mithra by Zarathustra...

Mithra is a much more fully developed image than the rather ethereal Mitra. Unlike the Indian god, we actually have a relief of the Iranian deity. Reconstruction shows Mithra shaking hands with King Antiochus. It is Mithra's attire, however, that is important to the current study. Mithra wears the Phrygian cap, Persian trousers, and a cape. His hat is star speckled (from textual evidence his chariot is similarly decorated). Rays of light emerge from Mithra's head much like a halo. His choke collar is a serpent. This image, or one very like it, will appear again in Rome.

Source: http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/index.html


this next article does have some very good reference material to it's statements.

Mithra: The Pagan Christ

Mithra or Mitra is even worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun's disciples.... [The Sun's] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox--Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb....

Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm


the early Catholic Church gave a very good refutation to mirthraism. Although they claim Mithraism borrowed from Christianity.

Although it is an early refutation, it is interesting in that it acknowledgesA similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward. (1) Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past -- these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared. Our knowledge is mostly ingenious guess-work; of the real inner working of Mithraism and the sense in which it was understood by those who professed it at the advent of Christianity, we know nothing. (2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that areligion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar .....

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

the point of this being that in reference to the topic where the topic starter placed a challenge, I would say the Bible does need a defense. there is evidence that it is not unique and that the teachings in it are very similar to ancient pagan beliefs.

I strongly doubt the alleged origin of todays bible and that it is not what Christianity taught.

Now it is up to the Author of the topic to ofer evidence that what is called the Bible is not a re
rewriting of pagan beliefs and a pagan version of Christianity.

 

[Redeemed]

What pro and cons are you talking about? It is a given that the Bible is not textually reliable (even the Catholic Church admits this). It is also a fact that the Bible consists of forged verses (ex. Mathew 6:13 and John 7:53 to 8:11).

Also, you need to realize that there are over 4200 religions in the world. Why do you think Christianity is the truth?? You cannot follow a pre-medieval dogma that has absolutely no evidence backing it whatsover.

Also, human beings progressed through reason, not by faith. Furthermore, your pilot analogy is flawed since instruments are empirical. Is faith empirical?? Why do you believe in Jesus and not Zeus?? Like Carl Sagan said, "I don't want to believe, I want to know."

Warmest regards

Peace to you:
Let me explain. It is not flawed. It is a known fact that pilots can get disoriented when flying. In other words, their feelings may tell them they are flying straight and right side up, but their instruments are may be telling them telling something else that they are upside down. They need to trust the instruments, which is tantamount to putting your faith in the word of God. There is an old Chinese proverb that says: He that flies upside down cracks up. :rollseyes

 

[Kashnowe]

my humble opinions is that it would be nice if the bible had physical proof like an aunaltered digital video recording showing everything that is written. it would be nice but not going to happen. it would be nice if the quran had a video too. it would be nice if we didn't have to depend on heresay for both of these books but in fact that is what people are doing. yet each religion relies on faith that their religion's basis for their beliefs is fact

the muslims say angel gabriel spoke to mohammed. well how do you know that? were you there when this happened? no. oh but close followers of mohammed knew this to be true. and a lot of reputable people said so. well how do you know these people's reputation? they could have been liars. (don't mean to insult anyone) and how is that? and every exact word that mohammed spoke was remembered for a few hundred years before someone decided to write it down. this leaves muuuuuuuuuuuch room for words to get tangled.

the same with the bible. everything is written by the hand of a person. and then rewritten and so on and so on. of course there will be some inconsistencies. if you read charlotte's web and see a few typos where the pig is called a cow but 98% of the time hes called a pig then you can infer that the is in fact a pig and someone made the mistake of typing cow. (my examples make me :giggling: )

forgive me if this is confusing but i have a baby and i was just singing this to him and it made me think of this example.

"twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are..."
gets passed on throughout generations then someone slips and says it wrong. just an honest mistake but the context changes dramatically
"twinkle twinkle little star how i know what you are..."

 

[Woodrow]

my humble opinions is that it would be nice if the bible had physical proof like an aunaltered digital video recording showing everything that is written. it would be nice but not going to happen. it would be nice if the quran had a video too. it would be nice if we didn't have to depend on heresay for both of these books but in fact that is what people are doing. yet each religion relies on faith that their religion's basis for their beliefs is fact

the muslims say angel gabriel spoke to mohammed. well how do you know that? were you there when this happened? no. oh but close followers of mohammed knew this to be true. and a lot of reputable people said so. well how do you know these people's reputation? they could have been liars. (don't mean to insult anyone) and how is that? and every exact word that mohammed spoke was remembered for a few hundred years before someone decided to write it down. this leaves muuuuuuuuuuuch room for words to get tangled.

the same with the bible. everything is written by the hand of a person. and then rewritten and so on and so on. of course there will be some inconsistencies. if you read charlotte's web and see a few typos where the pig is called a cow but 98% of the time hes called a pig then you can infer that the is in fact a pig and someone made the mistake of typing cow. (my examples make me :giggling: )

forgive me if this is confusing but i have a baby and i was just singing this to him and it made me think of this example.

"twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are..."
gets passed on throughout generations then someone slips and says it wrong. just an honest mistake but the context changes dramatically
"twinkle twinkle little star how i know what you are..."

Now you are going to make me work.

and every exact word that mohammed spoke was remembered for a few hundred years before someone decided to write it down. this leaves muuuuuuuuuuuch room for words to get tangled.

Actully it was written down while Muhammad(PBUH) was alive and he approved of ever word as it was read back to him.

Now, at the moment I am brain dead as to where i saw the verification of that.

I'll try to remember and come back and post it.

 

[Kashnowe]

i saw on previous posts that the quran wasn't written down until 800 years later. it was memorized by mohammed's fans rather.

the quran is long. i myself have a wonderful memory and i know people who remember all the words to many of their favorite movies.......but the true nature of humans is that we make mistakes. so in my opinion both muslims and christians base every single thing they believe in on faith from heresay a couple thousand years old.

mormons too. sheesh.

no they are not christians!!!

 

[Woodrow]

i saw on previous posts that the quran wasn't written down until 800 years later. it was memorized by mohammed's fans rather.

the quran is long. i myself have a wonderful memory and i know people who remember all the words to many of their favorite movies.......but the true nature of humans is that we make mistakes. so in my opinion both muslims and christians base every single thing they believe in on faith from heresay a couple thousand years old.

mormons too. sheesh.

no they are not christians!!!

I wont deny that my memory is not what it used to be. But, I'll look a bit further before giving up that I had seen it was written while Muhammad(PBUH) was alive

 

[Woodrow]

I still can't find the exact stuff I had seen before. But I did find this in Wiki:

First written accounts

Sahaba began recording suras in writing before Muhammad died in 632. Written copies of various suras during his lifetime are frequently alluded to in the traditions. For example, in the story of the conversion of Umar ibn al-Khattab (when Muhammad was still at Mecca), his sister is said to have been reading a text of sura Ta-Ha. At Medina, about sixty-five companions are believed to have acted as scribes for him at one time or another. The prophet would regularly call upon them to write down revelations immediately after they were revealed to him. However, Muhammad's revelations were not bound into one single book during his lifetime.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur'an

And the Hadith written at that time:

Volumn 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 117.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara : When the Verse: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home)" (4.95) was revealed, Allah Apostle called for Zaid who wrote it. In the meantime Ibn Um Maktum came and complained of his blindness, so Allah revealed: "Except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame..." etc.) (4.95)


Volumn 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 118.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara : When the Verse: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home)," (4.95) was revealed, the Prophet said, "Call so-and-so." That person came to him with an ink-pot and a wooden board or a shoulder scapula bone. The Prophet said (to him), "Write: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." Ibn Um Maktum who was sitting behind the Prophet then said, "O Allah's Apostle! I am a blind man." So there was revealed in the place of that Verse, the Verse: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury, or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." (4.95)

 

[Redeemed]

my humble opinions is that it would be nice if the bible had physical proof like an aunaltered digital video recording showing everything that is written. it would be nice but not going to happen. it would be nice if the quran had a video too. it would be nice if we didn't have to depend on heresay for both of these books but in fact that is what people are doing. yet each religion relies on faith that their religion's basis for their beliefs is fact

the muslims say angel gabriel spoke to mohammed. well how do you know that? were you there when this happened? no. oh but close followers of mohammed knew this to be true. and a lot of reputable people said so. well how do you know these people's reputation? they could have been liars. (don't mean to insult anyone) and how is that? and every exact word that mohammed spoke was remembered for a few hundred years before someone decided to write it down. this leaves muuuuuuuuuuuch room for words to get tangled.

the same with the bible. everything is written by the hand of a person. and then rewritten and so on and so on. of course there will be some inconsistencies. if you read charlotte's web and see a few typos where the pig is called a cow but 98% of the time hes called a pig then you can infer that the is in fact a pig and someone made the mistake of typing cow. (my examples make me :giggling: )

forgive me if this is confusing but i have a baby and i was just singing this to him and it made me think of this example.

"twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are..."
gets passed on throughout generations then someone slips and says it wrong. just an honest mistake but the context changes dramatically
"twinkle twinkle little star how i know what you are..."

I am not sure what your point is.:? Are you trying to say that because of this you don't need to be accountable to God?

 

[Umar001]

my humble opinions is that it would be nice if the bible had physical proof like an aunaltered digital video recording showing everything that is written. it would be nice but not going to happen. it would be nice if the quran had a video too. it would be nice if we didn't have to depend on heresay for both of these books but in fact that is what people are doing. yet each religion relies on faith that their religion's basis for their beliefs is fact

the muslims say angel gabriel spoke to mohammed. well how do you know that? were you there when this happened? no. oh but close followers of mohammed knew this to be true. and a lot of reputable people said so. well how do you know these people's reputation? they could have been liars. (don't mean to insult anyone) and how is that? and every exact word that mohammed spoke was remembered for a few hundred years before someone decided to write it down. this leaves muuuuuuuuuuuch room for words to get tangled.

Maybe your doubts comes from misinformation i.e. people remembering the words of muhammad for few hundreds of years before writing it down.

the same with the bible. everything is written by the hand of a person. and then rewritten and so on and so on. of course there will be some inconsistencies.

The compilation of the Bible and the Qu'ran are totally different cases. For example, the Qu'ran was compiled and written within the life time of it's deliverer, the Bible was compiled a while later, were the books of the Bible even selected by disciples who walked with Jesus, furthermore, the bulk of the NT is written by someone who didnt even meet Jesus, and the Gospels are likely to have had been influenced by his teachings, this and more makes the compilation of the Qu'ran and the Bible very different.

i saw on previous posts that the quran wasn't written down until 800 years later. it was memorized by mohammed's fans rather.

the quran is long. i myself have a wonderful memory and i know people who remember all the words to many of their favorite movies.......but the true nature of humans is that we make mistakes. so in my opinion both muslims and christians base every single thing they believe in on faith from heresay a couple thousand years old.

Well actually it was written down within the life of Muhammad and compiled into one book within a year or so of his death.

Furthermore ther are people who not only memorise the whole Qu'ran but other books ontop of that, including some hadith literature, and this is inthese days, imagine in the earlier generations where the success of muslims was higher, add to this that it was not one or two people but many all cross checking each other, add to that the fact that there were also written materials.

Anyhow,

Regards,
Eesa.

 

[Kashnowe]

i'll have to look back at other posts....i'm sure i read somewhere that the quran wasn't written down until 800 years later....hrm.

my point was saying that we all rely on faith in the end.

 

[Umar001]

i'll have to look back at other posts....i'm sure i read somewhere that the quran wasn't written down until 800 years later....hrm.

my point was saying that we all rely on faith in the end.

Faith, but the difference is how we choose where to place the faith, right?

Some just guess where they put their faith, other place it because they are born in a religion and others chose various other reasons.

 

[Redeemed]

Faith, but the difference is how we choose where to place the faith, right?

Exactly, those that guess what religion to put their faith in especially if they guess Christianity are the ones who easily revert to other religions. On the other hand, when someone responds to God drawing him or her to Christ, they begin to develop an actual relationship with the Lord on a personal level; that is what is missing in Islam. When one is rooted and ground in Christ they become oaks, and out of them flow rivers of living water. That is why the Bible says to know Him is to have eternal life. To have a Religion and not relationship is death; it is a drug that keeps its adherents addicted to it. It appeals to the senses, which is a work of the flesh that is confused for a spiritual relationship with God. God is love and you cannot have more love than to lay down your life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. He shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Without the shedding of Blood there is no forgiveness for our past, present and future sins. That doesn’t mean we can live in sin, NO heaven forbid, but it does mean we have been set free from them. Anyone who continues to live in sin is a slave to it and God is not mock. That person will reap as he sows. It is written: He that has the Son has life; he that does not has not life, but the wrath of God is on him or her.

 

[Woodrow]

Faith, but the difference is how we choose where to place the faith, right?

Exactly, those that guess what religion to put their faith in especially if they guess Christianity are the ones who easily revert to other religions. On the other hand, when someone responds to God drawing him or her to Christ, they begin to develop an actual relationship with the Lord on a personal level; that is what is missing in Islam. When one is rooted and ground in Christ they become oaks, and out of them flow rivers of living water. That is why the Bible says to know Him is to have eternal life. To have a Religion and not relationship is death; it is a drug that keeps its adherents addicted to it. It appeals to the senses, which is a work of the flesh that is confused for a spiritual relationship with God. God is love and you cannot have more love than to lay down your life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. He shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Without the shedding of Blood there is no forgiveness for our past, present and future sins. That doesn’t mean we can live in sin, NO heaven forbid, but it does mean we have been set free from them. Anyone who continues to live in sin is a slave to it and God is not mock. That person will reap as he sows. It is written: He that has the Son has life; he that does not has not life, but the wrath of God is on him or her.

I'm just curious about this part.

they begin to develop an actual relationship with the Lord on a personal level; that is what is missing in Islam.

There are quite a few people in this world, in fact about 1.5 Billion who will say that is not missing. Do you not understand that every Muslim enters into personal conversation with Allah(swt) at least 5 times a day and we feel his presence even more than we feel the presence of our Parents or children. He is with each of us on a very close personal level.

That is a very naive statement or you actually believe people will willingly surrender their lives to the service of Allah(swt), give up all to follow him and have every thought and deed dedicated to him, unless they they personally know his presence.

 

[Redeemed]

I'm just curious about this part.



There are quite a few people in this world, in fact about 1.5 Billion who will say that is not missing. Do you not understand that every Muslim enters into personal conversation with Allah(swt) at least 5 times a day and we feel his presence even more than we feel the presence of our Parents or children. He is with each of us on a very close personal level.

That is a very naive statement or you actually believe people will willingly surrender their lives to the service of Allah(swt), give up all to follow him and have every thought and deed dedicated to him, unless they they personally know his presence.

:hmm: Sorry about that. I am still learning. I got the impression from others (Muslims) that they weren't sure what their eternal destiny was going to be (heaven or hell). That Allah will make that call on their last day. I know where I am going, and I didn't know you feel the same about yourself. The only problem, however, is that according to the Qur'an, I am judged unworthy, and according to the Bible, you are too. You pray 5 times a day in communion with God; we are told to pray without ceasing!!^o)
peace

 

[Redeemed]

The question is though, is that you place your faith that the Biblical writings are accurate accounts of what Jesus said, so the question is why? Is there a logical reasoning for believing this, if so, then what is it? And if not then how does this make you different from a follower of any other religion who follows it for no reason but a desire.



You dont have to do anything, but if someone says something it would be cool to back it up, else all we would have on this forum is:

Muslim: Quran is right...
Christian: Bible is right...
Jew: Torah is right...
and when asked why they believe those claims they say ' I dont have to back it up, I just unleash it'

And you keep saying about the reliability, and again noone claims that being free from change = being Gods word, but being free from change is a prerequisite of being Gods word.

Its existances does not neccesitate existance, but its non exsitances neccesitates non existance.




You are skipping possabilities, it's not just two options, either Jesus is right or Jesus is wrong, there is a third option you fail to recognise, i.e. that the Scripture representing Jesus is wrong but not Jesus himself!

If I say, Alapiana says 'I am Muslim!' does this mean that you are Muslim? No it just means that I, the person writing have written a wrong account, similarly, I believe that Jesus is not wrong, but those who have written on him are!



What's your good advocate, please reveal that to me.

I understood you perfectly; I don't beleve that there are any errors in the recorded words of Jesus. I believe that the devil would want people to believe that there is, because he hates God's creation and wants them destroyed. My advocate is none other than Jesus before the Judge. I am guilty, but when Jesus comes to my defense, I will not have to give an account for all my sins; I would have already been justified. That is what Muslims are missing.:nervous:

 

[Umar001]

Exactly, those that guess what religion to put their faith in especially if they guess Christianity are the ones who easily revert to other religions. On the other hand, when someone responds to God drawing him or her to Christ, they begin to develop an actual relationship with the Lord on a personal level;

But they do not have any actual logical reason for that, they just 'feel' God calling them, just as a Muslim has had the feeling, Just as a Jew has had that feeling, I have spoken to people from all three and all of them tell me, and by far the most amazing one was the Jewish testimony where my friend claimed God kissed him when he went to the temple.

Does this mean that because he 'feels' he has a relletionship with God he is right, no! Just becaue one THINKS or Feels he is having a reletionship with God doesnt mean he is, for all he knows he could be dancing with the devil!!

This is why I prefer not to go on feelings alone, specially since we know that satan can effect us in that area.

that is what is missing in Islam.

No my friend, this is what you feel is missing in Islam!!

:hmm: Sorry about that. I am still learning. I got the impression from others (Muslims) that they weren't sure what their eternal destiny was going to be (heaven or hell).

Let me ask you a question, can God chose to send you to hell?

I know where I am going, and I didn't know you feel the same about yourself. The only problem, however, is that according to the Qur'an, I am judged unworthy, and according to the Bible, you are too. You pray 5 times a day in communion with God; we are told to pray without ceasing!!^o)
peace

Mistake after mistake,

1. You think you know where you going, let me give u an example, if someone gives me a bus time table, the bus time table says the bus is taking me such and such a place, and I sit at the bus stop SURE I am going to that place, but in reality for all I know the Bus Time Table could be wrong.

In a same way, you are here sitting saying 'I know where I am going' because of what you 'feel' and what the Bible says, but in reality your Bible could be, and in reality is wrong!!


2. You misunderstand Islamic Salaah with your prayer, your prayer is a non ceasing invocation or talking with God, actually in Islam we do have that 24/7 too!! Our prayer is something extra, so in reality, we have the never ceasing part, and on top we have 5 extra mandatory appointments with God to keep us in check.

I understood you perfectly; I don't beleve that
there are any errors in the recorded words of Jesus.

And what makes you derive to the conclusion that there are not any errors in the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life?

I believe that the devil would want people to believe that there is, because he hates God's creation and wants them destroyed.

Anyone can say that about any book/scripture.

My advocate is none other than Jesus before the Judge. I am guilty, but when Jesus comes to my defense, I will not have to give an account for all my sins; I would have already been justified. That is what Muslims are missing.:nervous:

Jesus aint coming to your defense and when God asks you why you believed he would you will claim that you believed in a text which was written by people you dont even know the life of, and a text which had contradictions in it, blatant additions, and causes of worry within it, yet you chose to take this text anyway.

A child who plays with fire will get burnt, saying 'I thought these gloves were fire proof' even though everything before hand indicated that they were not will not help you but rather be a witness against you!!

As for what Muslims are missing then you surely havent heard of Allah's mercy!!

 

[Redeemed]

But they do not have any actual logical reason for that, they just 'feel' God calling them, just as a Muslim has had the feeling, Just as a Jew has had that feeling, I have spoken to people from all three and all of them tell me, and by far the most amazing one was the Jewish testimony where my friend claimed God kissed him when he went to the temple.
The things of God and our faith have nothing to do with feelings or logic; it is my faith that is the substance of the things I hope for and the evidence of the things not seen as it is written.

Does this mean that because he 'feels' he has a relletionship with God he is right, no! Just becaue one THINKS or Feels he is having a reletionship with God doesnt mean he is, for all he knows he could be dancing with the devil!!Again I say to you it has nothing to do with feelings or logic. Feelings, logic and good intentions pave the way to hell.

This is why I prefer not to go on feelings alone, specially since we know that satan can effect us in that area. I agree with you here.



No my friend, this is what you feel is missing in Islam!!




Let me ask you a question, can God chose to send you to hell?
Not when I am covered by the blood of the Lamb. :happy:
Mistake after mistake,

1. You think you know where you going, let me give u an example, if someone gives me a bus time table, the bus time table says the bus is taking me such and such a place, and I sit at the bus stop SURE I am going to that place, but in reality for all I know the Bus Time Table could be wrong. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean I can't! That is your limitation not mine. I have the faith to back up my statements or I wouldn't say them. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin!
In a same way, you are here sitting saying 'I know where I am going' because of what you 'feel' and what the Bible says, but in reality your Bible could be, and in reality is wrong!! Have you not heard and haven't I told you from the begining, I go by faith not feelings. The just shall live by faith!!!
2. You misunderstand Islamic Salaah with your prayer, your prayer is a non ceasing invocation or talking with God, actually in Islam we do have that 24/7 too!! Our prayer is something extra, so in reality, we have the never ceasing part, and on top we have 5 extra mandatory appointments with God to keep us in check. We have nothing mandatory put on us. We are free to love and serve God. Our God doesn't want us to be compliant automatons. His youke is easy and His burden is light.

And what makes you derive to the conclusion that there are not any errors in the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life? It is what I choose to believe and the Bible needs no defense!

Anyone can say that about any book/scripture.



Jesus aint coming to your defense and when God asks you why you believed he would you will claim that you believed in a text which was written by people you dont even know the life of, and a text which had contradictions in it, blatant additions, and causes of worry within it, yet you chose to take this text anyway.
I can say that Allah aint coming to your defense and when God asks you why you believed he would you will claim that you believed in a text which was written by people you dont even know also for sure, and a text which has reliability, but where is the validity when it contradicts the Bible?A child who plays with fire will get burnt, saying 'I thought these gloves were fire proof' even though everything before hand indicated that they were not will not help you but rather be a witness against you!! There is no thought about it; it is what I know because God said so!
As for what Muslims are missing then you surely havent heard of Allah's mercy!!

You haven't heard God's justice!
Peace to you