Don't you think religion is important?

[justahumane]

Wow, I never knew that and I'm from that part of the world!

Its nothing strange, we often dont know everything. But its good that now U know the reality.

 

[glo]

It is important because religion is a fact. Personally, I don't believe the world is necessarily a better place because of the existence of religion though.

Hi KAding

Long time, no see!

Can I ask you if you believe that the world would be a better place without religion?

Peace

 

[glo]

No sister glo, hinduism is not a religion. Its a big misconception that hindu is a religion.

Thank you justahuman.
As you can see Tayyaba already provided an answer to my question in your absence.

So when you describe yourself as a Hindu, that's what you mean: the area you come from?

Peace

 

[- Qatada -]

Hmmmmm and rules of ppls work better than rules of GOD, its really strange but truth.

You cant say anyway, because the laws of man are for their own desires, whereas the law of Allaah is for equality and justness.


Peace.

 

[KAding]

Hi KAding

Long time, no see!

Can I ask you if you believe that the world would be a better place without religion?

Peace

Hello glo . I'm glad you decided to stay .

Actually, no. I don't believe it would matter all that much. I think every community will eventually reach somekind of workable 'equilibrium' in which some basic rules are enforced, either through social pressure or active policing. I think overall it won't matter that much, although religious communities are probably more likely to be collectivist and non-religious individualist. But overall, I don't believe in ideas such as: "if only we would all implement the sharia/communism then we'd have social harmony".

Humans have certain basic characteristics. There will always be those who want to have power and abuse it. There will always be a certain segment of society that are more likely to do immoral things. I don't think a religious society will be much better at taming those people than other societies. I actually believe history shows this to be true. Societies based on religion don't seem to have been particularly more succesful than those that didn't. The core issue is that even in a, say, Christian community there will be bad people and good people, just like in a non-religious community.

If everyone was a good Christian the world would probably be a better place. But that is fantasy. So I don't think it matters .

 

[KAding]

Political systems are a religion in themselves where the the rules of God are replaced by rules of people.

From your perspective, yes. From mine both are a human creation. Thus, it's best to make rules that fit the society now, instead of arab society some 1400 years ago.

But I understand why you would disagree .

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi Kading.


The rules of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) still fit into society today because that law can be applied from 1426years go, till the day of judgement. Infact their more suitable in the conditions that we're living in right now, and the injustice we see in society will be overcome if we apply them now.


If you really look into islamic history, you'll see its positive effects and the justice from that is given to the citizens.


Check this link out for islamic history insha'Allaah:

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


If you havn't seen the facts, then you can't judge an islamic state because your opinions are likely to be biased and also stereotyped.



Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

 

[KAding]

Hi Kading.

The rules of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) still fit into society today because that law can be applied from 1426years go, till the day of judgement. Infact their more suitable in the conditions that we're living in right now, and the injustice we see in society will be overcome if we apply them now.

If you really look into islamic history, you'll see its positive effects and the justice from that is given to the citizens.

Check this link out for islamic history insha'Allaah:

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12

If you havn't seen the facts, then you can't judge an islamic state because your opinions are likely to be biased and also stereotyped.

Allaah Almighty knows best.

Peace.

Thanks for the link Fi_Sabilillah.

I don't dispute that Islam might at that time have been beneficial to the Arabs. But I don't see how that proves that religion is somehow a necessity for the establishment of a positive and just social order. Was the pre-Islamic arab world secular? No, it was mostly polytheistic with some Christian and Judaic influences. So Islamic revolution in Arabia has little to with a shift from 'non-religious' to 'religious'. A better example would be the enlightment in Europe and the gradual secularisation that followed in the following centuries. Overall it has lead to an increase in science, development, and prosperity.

Yet, communism has shown that a social order based on secularism can also be disastrous. It's all a matter of experimentation, see what works for a society at a specific time and place. Muslims have done this on a massive scale during the 20th century when they embraced ideologies like socialism and secularism. They did so because their old social order and political system appeared inadequate. The Turks didn't become die-hard secularists and abolish the caliphate because it was working great for them. They were falling behind the Europeans on virtually all worldly levels. While Islam was probably a good system in Mohammed's time, apparently it no longer sufficed for Muslims in the last few hundreds years.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i am a dedicated and very devout christian, but i don't feel that everyone needs religion, and i think sometimes religion can cause more problems then good.. maybe not in my personal life, but in life in general.

eace: and greetings thirdwatch512,

I was just wondering how someone who is devout in his religion can think that? You see i like to believe i practise islam even though i should be doing more but i can never think that islam creates more problems then good. Infact, islam creates nothing but good but those with weak faith or disbelief create a lot of problems.

So what makes you say this?

 

[united]

Hmmmmm and rules of ppls work better than rules of GOD, its really strange but truth.

well that is as matter of opinion.
but the glory years in saudi arabia for example, were the years of the Prophet s.
(no saudi does not use shariah today)

 

[KAding]

well that is as matter of opinion.
but the glory years in saudi arabia for example, were the years of the Prophet s.
(no saudi does not use shariah today)

Why did they stop using it if it worked so well?

 

[united]

well it doesnt satisfy those who have a love for greed and those who care only about themselves

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for the link Fi_Sabilillah.

I don't dispute that Islam might at that time have been beneficial to the Arabs. But I don't see how that proves that religion is somehow a necessity for the establishment of a positive and just social order. Was the pre-Islamic arab world secular? No, it was mostly polytheistic with some Christian and Judaic influences. So Islamic revolution in Arabia has little to with a shift from 'non-religious' to 'religious'. A better example would be the enlightment in Europe and the gradual secularisation that followed in the following centuries. Overall it has lead to an increase in science, development, and prosperity.

The pre-islamic period in arabia was mainly cultural and it had freedom of all religions. Therefore people could stick to their other beliefs (i.e. polytheism, agnostism, atheism, christianity, judaism etc.) the people never cared about what religion you followed as long as it didn't effect their power. [It was a tribal society and the people in power (the Quraysh) would take advantage of the other tribes for the benefit of money. I.e. you can't make an idol from your own cities rocks, but instead - you have to buy an idol from Makkah because this place is holy.

They never really focused it on the religios side (because idol worship was already forbidden by Ibraheem and his son Isma'eel [the father of the arabs] (peace be upon them) but instead, they only did some of the actions due to the cultural aspects.


There was also lots of oppression to women, continuous tribal warfare, the people higher in the hierarchy taking advantage of the people who are in the lower tribes, cheating in business transactions, alcohol, anything you can think of - it was a society which had all the negative aspects of life. If you think they were religious, realise that they even had brothels in public! They were truely so far from the true religion of islaam. In some ways even further away from the truth then what we may see in the west.

Therefore islaam would make a huge impact on the customs the pagan arabs were going through at there time. This is one of the reasons the pagan arabs were so severe and harsh against the believers.

Yet, communism has shown that a social order based on secularism can also be disastrous. It's all a matter of experimentation, see what works for a society at a specific time and place. Muslims have done this on a massive scale during the 20th century when they embraced ideologies like socialism and secularism. They did so because their old social order and political system appeared inadequate. The Turks didn't become die-hard secularists and abolish the caliphate because it was working great for them. They were falling behind the Europeans on virtually all worldly levels. While Islam was probably a good system in Mohammed's time, apparently it no longer sufficed for Muslims in the last few hundreds years.

The reasons why the muslims lost their caliphate was due to the fact that they turned away from islaam. Didn't you see how the ottoman empire was huge once upon a time? The only reason it ended was because they turned away from islaam.

Turkey isn't a superpower now, and it's a weak nation. Why is this? It's because when the turks had authority in the land while applying the islamic law - they prospered greatly. Instead of blaming them for their loss, realise that they had authority in the lands when they established the law of Allaah Almighty properly, we can say the same about Muslim Spain, or Iraq [in the Abbasiya dynasty] etc. The only time these parties were overthrown were when they gave up their islaam due to their excess love of this world due to the blessings that Allaah had bestowed upon them.



When the muslims applied the islamic law in Al-Andalus (spain), they advanced in many fields. What the muslims did in spain changed Europe in a way that could never be imagined.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622),

In his book titled, "Spain In The Modern World," James Cleuge explains the significance of Cordova in Medieval Europe: ​

"For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)​

​

"thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)[/quote]


​

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)​

In another of James Burke's works titled "Connections," he describes how the Muslims thawed out Europe from the Dark Ages. "But the event that must have done more for the intellectual and scientific revival of Europe was the fall of Toledo in Spain to the Christians, in 1105." In Toledo the Muslims had huge libraries containing the lost (to Christian Europe) works of the Greeks and Romans along with Muslim philosophy and mathematics. "The Spanish libraries were opened, revealing a store of classics and Muslim works that staggered Christian Europeans." (Burke, 1978, p. 123)

"The intellectual community which the northern scholars found in Spain was so far superior to what they had at home that it left a lasting jealousy of Muslim culture, which was to colour Western opinions for centuries" (Burke, 1985, p. 41)

​

"The subjects covered by the texts included medicine, astrology, astronomy pharmacology, psychology, physiology, zoology, biology, botany, mineralogy, optics, chemistry, physics, mathematics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, music, meteorology, geography, mechanics, hydrostatics, navigation and history." (Burke, 1985, p. 42)​

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=492&section=indepth&subsection=Islamic history






​

When the muslims turn away from the religion of Allaah, Allaah Almighty humiliates them so that they may turn back to Him, Almighty. When a person turns to Allaah, Allaah will bless them more in this world and the hereafter insha'Allaah. We have turned away from the religion of Allaah, and this is the reason for our humiliation today. Once we turn back to Allaah, Allaah will bless us and give us ease once again insha'Allaah.


I heard in a lecture that the world came as a woman to Jesus (peace be upon him.) He asked her, how much men have you decieved, she said millions and not one did i stick with forever. (Something similar to that.)





Anyway, Allaah Almighty knows best.






Peace.
​

 

[duskiness]

i think that there is one but BIG problem about Syilla's question - what does word "religion" mean. i was thought a year long many definiontions of this, just to be told in the end that in fact nobody knows.

Do you think religion is important?
Do you think human population can live without religion?

No, i think that homo sapiens is homo religious. One of my professor from ethnography wrote book about "proto-religious behavior" of primates. I'm far form claiming that such behavior exist, but i think that we are somehow biologically designed to believe (as a specie)

How they are going to setup a system without the reference of any kind of religion

i don't know. But i know that even so called "secular" system also uses religion - in broad meaning of this word. Fascism used it. Communism can be also treaded as a religion (paradise on earth, promise of salvation, worshiping the leaders, holy books). I think that we can escape are need of religion. Religion is a center of culture. And without "religion" (sensu largo!) there is no culture, no culture - no humans.

 

[justahumane]

Thank you justahuman.
As you can see Tayyaba already provided an answer to my question in your absence.

So when you describe yourself as a Hindu, that's what you mean: the area you come from?
Peace

Well yes. U see hindu has nothing to do with religion, anyone living in India is a hindu, but nowadays it is referred to as only religion which is technically wrong.

Regards.

 

[justahumane]

You cant say anyway, because the laws of man are for their own desires, whereas the law of Allaah is for equality and justness.


Peace.

Well brother, I differ as usual, . For instance we see more justice in places where laws of man are being implemented. Although Laws of ALLAH are not being implemented anywhere but a very few places. Still we can see the difference.

Regards

 

[justahumane]

Brother Fi_Sabilillah, I have no reason to disbelieve U when U tell us about the glorious past of muslims. But the question still stands, why muslims chose to implement their own laws and disobey ALLAH? I find no muslim who wont tell me that Shariyah laws are best for humanity......not a single one. But U can urself see the end result which really matters. laws of ALLAH being disobeyed shamelessly virtually in evey muslim nation, and at the same time the drama of reciting and parroting the laws continues.

Now who can we say is honest with his or her views or who is not?

Regards.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

There could be many reasons why some may not like it, whether its for their own gain, if they simply do not understand it or know nothing about it. As we know, the Shariah forbids any sinful act. I'm sure those who do follow Islam, won't even say that, just like the ones here on this forum.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hi bro justahumane.



The majority of the muslims have turned away from the religion of Allaah due to their lusts and desires, or their fear of this world over the fear of disobeying Allaah Almighty. This is common when the majority are ignorant of the true teachings of islaam, some read the Qur'an without even trying to understand what it means, others don't choose to obey some commandments even though we should enter into islaam whole heartedly. [I've spoke about this to you before in other posts so i'll leave it at that for now insha'Allaah.]



Whenever the muslims are living in this world, from the time of the Messenger of Allaah - Muhammad (peace be upon him.) The muslims can compare their situation to the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)




I'll clarify this abit insha'Allaah. When the message was first revealed, the muslims gave da'wah (invitation) to islaam privately. There were a few muslims who accepted here and there, but it wasn't too popular. After this, the divine revelation was revealed to start inviting people to islaam in public.



As time progressed, the amount of muslims was increasing. When the power at that time (the Quraysh) realised that islaam was a threat to their authority, they started to bribe the muslims to turn back to their ignorant ways. The muslims wouldn't obey them, and the government realised the number increased as time progressed. Now they were really confused, scared that they would lose their authority. What option did they have? They started spreading propaganda about them, slandering the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) and saying that the believers have given up the religion of their forefathers for a new religion. [Even though this was a contradiction because the Muslims were just following the religion of Ibraheem (Abraham) and Isma'eel (Ibraheem's son - Ishmael)


Still, the muslims stayed firm in their faith and still the numbers increased. What can they do now? They started persecuting the believers.




The muslims had no place to run to because there was no islamic state. Some of them moved to Abysinnia (present day Ethiopia) because the king was a just ruler there (Al-Najashi [Negus]), so they were allowed to practise their religion there.



However, some muslims remained in Makkah while the torture continued. After some time, the idea of moving to Yathrib (present day Medinah) was agreed upon. The muslims moved there and this is where they practised their religion, along with the inhabitants of Medinah who had also accepted the religion of islaam. [the two tribes of Al-'Aws and Khazraj (of Medinah) [Known as Al-Ansaar (The Helpers) had accepted islaam due to the fact that they had recieved the message at hajj (the pilgrimage in Makkah, and they had become muslim before the muslims of Makkah moved to Medinah. (The Muhajiroon)]


One of the last people to move to Medinah was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and this was the beginning of the first Islamic State.



From there, try taking a guess, what stage are we in?




Realise that the muslims in spain ruled for many centuries, and the time they gained authority was when the muslim leaders were just, so Allaah sent upon them many blessings. They had the blessed kingdom of Al-Andalus because they applied the law of Allaah, and they strived hard to be just and fair. However, due to the blessings that Allaah Almighty had bestowed upon them - the muslims fell into a big trap. They started preferring this life over the life of the hereafter, which meant they were likely to go against the law of Allaah and disobey Him.



After some time, a land which was blessed by Allaah was removed from the hands of the muslims. Ever since then, the great, blessed empire of Al-Andalus has fallen. The only reason for this is because the muslims turned away from the religion of Allaah.





The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

Rejoice and hope for what will please you! By Allah, I am not afraid of your poverty but I am afraid that you will lead a life of luxury as past nations did, whereupon you will compete with each other for it, as they competed for it, and it will destroy you as it destroyed them. (Bukhari)
​

We're in the stage of the Makkan period when the muslims were tortured. The one's who speak out are arrested, tortured and abused.


But those who fall into the traps of the attacking regimes may be spared in this world, but the life of this world is only temporary, and Allaah Almighty will judge between us all on what we did.



We will see an islamic state insha'Allaah, but nothing can ever be accomplished except by striving hard to earn that. If we die on the way, insha'Allaah we will see the blessings of the hereafter. If we live long enough, we will see the fruits of our hard work insha'Allaah in this world aswell as the hereafter.

Verily, with every difficulty there is relief. (Qur'an Surah Inshirah 94:6)


​

Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
​

 

[syilla]

^^^

The majority of the muslims have turned away from the religion of Allaah due to their lusts and desires, or their fear of this world over the fear of disobeying Allaah Almighty. This is common when the majority are ignorant of the true teachings of islaam, some read the Qur'an without even trying to understand what it means, others don't choose to obey some commandments even though we should enter into islaam whole heartedly.