Dublin imam takes on the fanatics

[AvarAllahNoor]

Why is it that just because he thinks the violence should end, he has been "paid off". Personally I wish Islam had more people like this guy, he seems smart..

:statisfie

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What does that mean?

Gee i didnt know i was hard to understand :X. i feel like bringing up the alien language again....:X

My point is if we want people to know what Islam is all about, show it in ur character. Dont just sit their behind the computer screen and talk.

Peace

 

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

first of all he uses the w a h a b i label, always a sign of an extremist sufi or modernist, though i admit not a proof but anyone who uses one of Allah's names as a means of denegrating and denouncing other characters is in my viewpoint misguided.

next, yes i agree with suicide bombings under certain conditions, i.e valid target, no other means to attack the enemy with the same effectiveness, a valid jihad etc.

the next point...
the man is obviously no fan of history or he would see that the west has constantly tried to battle and attack islam, and i have absolute faith that Allah knows what he is talking about when he says of the jews and christians in the Quran 'they will never like you until you are like themselves'

i have faith and conviction that the Quran is 100% true and correct, that the disbelievers do hate islam, that this is their way since the earliest days of mankind until the end days of mankind that the disbelieves will have hatred in the heart for the true believers, that some of them can be shown the truth but others will always hate and belittle and dislike.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

 

[SilentObserver]

i wonder how much he cost?

or is he one of the genuine misguided fools who believes this crap and spreads it to please the kuffar?

either way he speaks rubbish and is a clear enemy of Allah and of islam, may Allah swt guide him.

such people should put up or shut up, they should either present their case in debate about whether they represent the true islam or they should shut up because their daleel and views can usually be destroyed as the falsehood it is with ease by genuine scholars of islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Why? Suicide bombers are cool? Violence is cool? Hate and killing are cool?

Seems to me the 'true islam' that many muslims have presented to me, is a lot different from your 'true islam'. But there can only be one 'true islam'. So which is it? The peaceful, loving religion that Muezzin has presented? Or your hate filled, suicide bomber glorifying, war loving version?

I like Muezzin's version alot more.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Why? Suicide bombers are cool? Violence is cool? Hate and killing are cool?

Seems to me the 'true islam' that many muslims have presented to me, is a lot different from your 'true islam'. But there can only be one 'true islam'. So which is it? The peaceful, loving religion that Muezzin has presented? Or your hate filled, suicide bomber glorifying, war loving version?

I like Muezzin's version alot more.

did i use the words 'cool?'
i would not use such crass and crude language about such serious topics.

the truth is that the true islam is what was presented by Allah through the person of his messenger, saws, and that the best of interpretation of this comes from his companions and then the generations after them.

now did they hesitate to give their life if necessary to protect islam? no, though they didnt waste them either but nor were they affraid to die and were eager to meet death knowing their lord would be pleased with them if they did such.

now i dont love violence or war, but i recognise that if islam is under attack it should defend itself. we are peaceful with those who are peaceful with us, keep attacking islam and dont be suprised if some comes back the other way as we are not those who sit and take punishment without standing up and striking back.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Malaikah]

SilentObserver, just because you think he is presenting something, doesn't mean you really understood what either person is actually saying.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

next, yes i agree with suicide bombings under certain conditions, i.e valid target, no other means to attack the enemy with the same effectiveness, a valid jihad etc.

I have a huge problem with this line of reasoning, the human target of the bomber is also created by Allah. Why should Allah want part of his creation destroyed in this way?

It might be in the heart of the bomber that he wants to target another group of people, but how can the bomber know the 'target' is valid in the eyes of Allah?

i have faith and conviction that the Quran is 100% true and correct, that the disbelievers do hate islam,

I don’t hate Islam, I have a great respect for your beliefs, and also the beliefs of other faiths too. What I hate is violence and injustice even if it is from Christian origins.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

 

[skhalid]

True Islam:? :? :skeleton:
Is there such a thing these days?:?
True Islam existed wen Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) to lead Muslims through the right path!!!

 

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;



I have a huge problem with this line of reasoning, the human target of the bomber is also created by Allah. Why should Allah want part of his creation destroyed in this way?

It might be in the heart of the bomber that he wants to target another group of people, but how can the bomber know the 'target' is valid in the eyes of Allah?



I don’t hate Islam, I have a great respect for your beliefs, and also the beliefs of other faiths too. What I hate is violence and injustice even if it is from Christian origins.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

peace eric,

i do not mean you personally, but i mean as a group of people the disbelievers will never accept our ways, dislike them and many of them if they could would see them destroyed.

the point of martyrdom operations is that the person doing it is not intending on killing themselves, this is a by-product, but their intention is to kill the enemies of Allah, according to the islamic law on who is or isnt a valid target in war, and having no other means available offers up their body as a means of delivering the explosive into the heart of the enemy position.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

 

[Abdul Fattah]

assalaamu alaykum,

I would like to discuss these matters some more in depth.

first of all he uses the w a h a b i label, always a sign of an extremist sufi or modernist, though i admit not a proof but anyone who uses one of Allah's names as a means of denegrating and denouncing other characters is in my viewpoint misguided.

I can see why you find that term inappropriate, but it is a recognized group, so it's kind of difficult going around that. How can you discuss something without saying it's name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
EDIT: due to auto-censorship I cannot write the correct URL, just replace the stars with Wa ha bi (without the spaces of course)

next, yes i agree with suicide bombings under certain conditions, i.e valid target, no other means to attack the enemy with the same effectiveness, a valid jihad etc.

How can an act of terrorism cannot be considered as striving in the way of Allah (s.w.t.) when by this act you revolt against the very rules of Allah (s.w.t.)?

1. The Qur’an states that killing an innocent person is like killing the whole of humanity. The ayah is:
   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. (Qur’an 5:32)
   And regardless the target of an act of terrorism it’s hard to imagine that not a single innocent bystander gets killed by it. It becomes especially challenging when you keep in mind the difficulty of establishing guilt of a person beyond reasonable doubt. In fact the only valid targets would be an army at the very time that they are attacking.
2. Even if victims aren’t that innocent. Jihad is still only allowed during oppression as a form of self-defense or to defend defenseless people. It cannot be an act of vengeance and retaliation; nor can people become oppressed trough it. Neither can one force non-believers to believe.
   Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Qur’an 2:256)
3. Suicide is a major sin, regardless the cause. And it’s even worse because even if a person believes, during the time of committing a sin he is considered a disbeliever. So during the act of suicide one dies as a disbeliever. The Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.) said: “Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Hell-fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever.” (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim)
   Kindly show me a single verse or hadeeth that shows that jihad makes this an acception. When the sahabis fought in battles, did they purpesly walk into swords to become martyrs? No, even though they wanted it very bad they fought 'till their last breath and tried not to get killed.
4. It is forbidden for Muslims to kill by fire according to the following Hadith: Punishment by fire does not behove anyone except the Master of the Fire. (Reported by Abu Dawud)
   Explosion is the same as fire, it's just such an intense fire that it looks differently, but physically and chemically speaking it's the same thing.

the next point...
the man is obviously no fan of history or he would see that the west has constantly tried to battle and attack islam, and i have absolute faith that Allah knows what he is talking about when he says of the jews and christians in the Quran 'they will never like you until you are like themselves'

You mean this verse right?
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah. (Qur'an 2:120)
It's true, and a sad thing indeed, I have felt it myself from within my own environment as a revert. However this verse does not justify attacking them, it's only a warning to us that we shouldn't give in to their desires for the sake of peace. And yes; looking at history is sad to, but it's no excuse for a violent future either. Two wrongs don't make a right. Funny that you mention that verse, are you aware of this one? It comes 50 verses after the one you reffered to:
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:192-193)
So that means we can not look at the past, we can only look at the actions of the present.

i have faith and conviction that the Quran is 100% true and correct, that the disbelievers do hate islam, that this is their way since the earliest days of mankind until the end days of mankind that the disbelieves will have hatred in the heart for the true believers, that some of them can be shown the truth but others will always hate and belittle and dislike.

Oh, they hate and belittle and dislike us, so let's nuke 'm? Just swallow it in and be the bigger person; but don't get all violent because of this.

 

[MTAFFI]

the point of martyrdom operations is that the person doing it is not intending on killing themselves, this is a by-product, but their intention is to kill the enemies of Allah,

here is the problem i have, the suicide bomber is not the only "by-product", which by the way is a disgusting way to regard human life. These guys kill themselves along with all the people around them and I guarantee you that some if not many of the people around them are not at war with Islam. So why is it martyrdom and not murder to you? Innocent people die because of a war were you cant even effectively identify the enemy. If they are American or from the west then that is just good enough, well to me it sounds like Islam wants to destroy the west, so why shouldnt the west destroy all of Islam? What would you say if instead of the west concentrating on a certain group of people who share your religion they just said any muslim in the US is to be put to death, and then proceeded to bomb and destroy all muslim countries. This would probably happen if all Muslims thought like the extremist do, and thank God they dont and for people like this man.

I am not trying to pick a fight with you or Islam, I am just saying that this sort of violence is not the way. Not only that bad it has given your people a really bad name, that is not deserved. You can try to justify these acts of violence all you want but to me and many others you are just using your religion as a sheild or excuse to kill those that do not believe the same as you. It is sad and may God guide you onto the right path

 

[FBI]

Explosion is the same as fire, it's just such an intense fire that it looks differently, but physically and chemically speaking it's the same thing.

I strongly disagree with this, using explosives is common warfare, there is a diffrence as using a naked flame to burn someone intentionally and using C4 to take out a tank.

 

[aamirsaab]

I strongly disagree with this, using explosives is common warfare, there is a diffrence as using a naked flame to burn someone intentionally and using C4 to take out a tank.

Just a point I'd like to mention: any form of explosive is considered haram with regards to Islamic warfare due to it's indiscriminate splash damage and the fact that that it affects the environment adversely.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I strongly disagree with this, using explosives is common warfare, there is a diffrence as using a naked flame to burn someone intentionally and using C4 to take out a tank.

Just because it's common doesn't make it ok for us.
If it's common for soldiers to sodomize prisoners of war as a scare tactic, should we do the same?

If it's common to serve soldiers pork since it's cheaper, should we do the same so they don't have a economical advancement?

Just because they do it doesn't make it right for us, right?
We still have our religion to abide by.

 

[FBI]

Just a point I'd like to mention: any form of explosive is considered haram with regards to Islamic warfare due to it's indiscriminate splash damage and the fact that that it affects the environment adversely.

The issue of 'ijtihad' would applied, what we to do fight with swords against armoured vehicles, if it applies to jihad then it's permissable as such other things as lying becomes permissable then.

 

[Skillganon]

assalaamu alaykum,

I would like to discuss these matters some more in depth.

I can see why you find that term inappropriate, but it is a recognized group, so it's kind of difficult going around that. How can you discuss something without saying it's name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
EDIT: due to auto-censorship I cannot write the correct URL, just replace the stars with Wa-ha-bi

Assalamu alaikum, brother go to the "sect and devision" section and read the article on W'ahhabi myth first. It is a degetory label from the enemy of the Islam.
It is named after a scholar of Islam.

How can an act of terrorism cannot be considered as striving in the way of Allah (s.w.t.) when by this act you revolt against the very rules of Allah (s.w.t.)?

Secondly no one's advising something that is against the Quran and the Sunnah, although one must note that retaliation(Jihad) is allowable in Islam. I do not exactly agree with suicide methods, something that has to be advised against.

Not everything they do in the name of fighting terrorism is as such as they claim, and not everything they claim that it is extremism is as such. They probably will call our prophet as such.

Secondly one should note that this geezer made such claims that does not stand up to any viable scrutiny. It is a standard rethoric, same rethoric even by those who hate Islam.
Nothing new in Islam.

I hope that helps.

 

[FBI]

Just because it's common doesn't make it ok for us.
If it's common for soldiers to sodomize prisoners of war as a scare tactic, should we do the same?

If it's common to serve soldiers pork since it's cheaper, should we do the same so they don't have a economical advancement?

Just because they do it doesn't make it right for us, right?
We still have our religion to abide by.

I never mentioned any of the above did I? Yes thats why muslim need to arm them selfs to defend our lands, ijtihad would be applied. we're being attacked what do u want us to do fight with stones.

 

[Skillganon]

I never mentioned any of the above did I? Yes thats why muslim need to arm them selfs to defend our lands, ijtihad would be applied. we're being attacked what do u want us to do fight with stones.

Probably bend your nexk in subserviant to them and their way's. I do not think brother steve meant it that way or probably miss-understood him. He meant we should not do anything against the Quran and the sunnah no matter but rather by what it is prescribed. i.e. not to trangress.

 

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

I would like to discuss these matters some more in depth.

I can see why you find that term inappropriate, but it is a recognized group, so it's kind of difficult going around that. How can you discuss something without saying it's name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
EDIT: due to auto-censorship I cannot write the correct URL, just replace the stars with Wa ha bi (without the spaces of course)


How can an act of terrorism cannot be considered as striving in the way of Allah (s.w.t.) when by this act you revolt against the very rules of Allah (s.w.t.)?

1. The Qur’an states that killing an innocent person is like killing the whole of humanity. The ayah is:
   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. (Qur’an 5:32)
   And regardless the target of an act of terrorism it’s hard to imagine that not a single innocent bystander gets killed by it. It becomes especially challenging when you keep in mind the difficulty of establishing guilt of a person beyond reasonable doubt. In fact the only valid targets would be an army at the very time that they are attacking.
2. Even if victims aren’t that innocent. Jihad is still only allowed during oppression as a form of self-defense or to defend defenseless people. It cannot be an act of vengeance and retaliation; nor can people become oppressed trough it. Neither can one force non-believers to believe.
   Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Qur’an 2:256)
3. Suicide is a major sin, regardless the cause. And it’s even worse because even if a person believes, during the time of committing a sin he is considered a disbeliever. So during the act of suicide one dies as a disbeliever. The Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.) said: “Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Hell-fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever.” (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim)
   Kindly show me a single verse or hadeeth that shows that jihad makes this an acception. When the sahabis fought in battles, did they purpesly walk into swords to become martyrs? No, even though they wanted it very bad they fought 'till their last breath and tried not to get killed.
4. It is forbidden for Muslims to kill by fire according to the following Hadith: Punishment by fire does not behove anyone except the Master of the Fire. (Reported by Abu Dawud)
   Explosion is the same as fire, it's just such an intense fire that it looks differently, but physically and chemically speaking it's the same thing.

You mean this verse right?
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah. (Qur'an 2:120)
It's true, and a sad thing indeed, I have felt it myself from within my own environment as a revert. However this verse does not justify attacking them, it's only a warning to us that we shouldn't give in to their desires for the sake of peace. And yes; looking at history is sad to, but it's no excuse for a violent future either. Two wrongs don't make a right. Funny that you mention that verse, are you aware of this one? It comes 50 verses after the one you reffered to:
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:192-193)
So that means we can not look at the past, we can only look at the actions of the present.



Oh, they hate and belittle and dislike us, so let's nuke 'm? Just swallow it in and be the bigger person; but don't get all violent because of this.

assalaamu alaykum,

if you wish to discuss the topic of suicide bombings / martyrdom operations then please start a new thread i think rather than hijack this one thanks.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I never mentioned any of the above did I? Yes thats why muslim need to arm them selfs to defend our lands, ijtihad would be applied. we're being attacked what do u want us to do fight with stones.

I said no explosion, that doesn't mean all you got left stones and swords, there's still a million of weapons left. Just pick your battles smart.