Early Christianity + Paganism = Modern Christianity

[sameer]

Understanding a religion is not the same as understanding God, St, Augustine has a famous quote:

"God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”

If u truly understand Islam then u would understand Gods revelations about himself among other things.

 

[Jayda]

If u truly understand Islam then u would understand Gods revelations about himself among other things.

...the New Testament is fundamentally God revealing himself to us. I know things about God, like he loves us and wants us to be free to choose salvation over sin, but to say i "understand God" or comprehend him physically is (from my religious perspective) blasphemous.

 

[duskiness]

St, Augustine has a famous quote

I knew this quote but didn't know who said it! Thx Jayda!!
n.

 

[QuranStudy]

^^ is Gdansk in Russia?

 

[Jayda]

gdansk is danzig... its in poland...

 

[sameer]

...the New Testament is fundamentally God revealing himself to us. I know things about God, like he loves us and wants us to be free to choose salvation over sin, but to say i "understand God" or comprehend him physically is (from my religious perspective) blasphemous.

So dont u comprehend jesus pyhsically ?

 

[Jayda]

So dont u comprehend jesus pyhsically ?

I comprehend that he was fully human and fully divine, but I dont understand how, or how exactly he is One with the Father, and there are many other aspects to Jesus I dont understand and never will.

 

[duskiness]

^^ is Gdansk in Russia?

gdansk is danzig... its in poland...

As Jayada said - it's Poland. It's also slavic country but we differ from russians ( for many poles it's offensive to be treated as russians ) And "Danzig" it's german name for my city, because for many centuries it was german. But it's normal in eastern europe (or "middle-estern europe" how we call it) for one place to have many names....
n.

 

[chitownmuslim]

I comprehend that he was fully human and fully divine, but I dont understand how, or how exactly he is One with the Father, and there are many other aspects to Jesus I dont understand and never will.

the statement above contains a huge contradiction. Im not a scholar or anything, but i can definitely tell you that God and humans are two totally different things. Your either a God or a human, when you say he is human and God, your contradicting yourself.

God is the almighty, the creator, who does not exist within the dimensions of time and space, God has always existed and will never cease to exist, his existence is neccessary for all creation, his nonexistence is impossible. among his attributes are omniscience and omnipotence.

Humans were created, and are bound by time and space, every human thats ever existed has died or will die. None of what I said about God can be applied to any human.

So one question remains, was Jesus human or a God? If he was some kind of God-human, how is that?

 

[Curaezipirid]

Jesus as the sacrificial lamb is a direct reference to the old Jewish custom of sacrificing animals as atonement of sin. That's exactly what Jesus did: paid for our sins, once and for all!

This is a good place to begin any discussion of Early Christianity and its relationship with Paganism and the birth of modern Christianity. In some ways the statement quoted epitomises all that is wrong in modern Christian attitude. However, first I want to blast this thread right out of the water. Off the topic is not so much the point as that each post is not speaking distincly enough to the overall topic; and the overall effect in reading it is that any person not already a believer in monotheist Religion could take from it that perhaps even Islam is just a trick of Pagans! So I thought that warrants me having my two cents worth.

In the first instance one of the questions asked is whether Satan tricked Christians. The answer is of course YES! They all fell down, not to Pagans; but to Satan himself! Remember Satan manifested to Jesus and Jesus refuted Him and immediately thereafter accepted Crucifixion. In teaching His disciples he told that each one must die to live in His example. Satan manifests to every person whom adopts a Christian identity and offers them to suppose that Jesus already died to attone their sins; but that is the temptation. They thereby began to imagine that perhaps they may not have to accept Allah. The original teaching of Holy Trinity was true, but already by the time Arch Angel Gabriel began to teach Qur'an to Mohammed; the Christians were falling into a temptation to suppose, that if Jesus could have died so that they might not have to, then maybe Jesus is Allah.

The picture that is drawn of the triangle that says Father is not Son is not Holy Ghost, and each of is God, is not the real belief of a real actualised Christian, but only that belief of the occultists whom sustain the modern perversions to Christian teaching that dominate the Catholic church and all churches subservient to it. The actual teaching, as Jesus intended it, began in an understanding that we each learn to stablise our belief in reality through our Fathers. So Father is a symbol of Faith. Then Son is the Symbol of Hope, the denying and passive quality of matter. And Love is symbolised by Holy Spirit and the undoubtable reality of Jesus resurrection; that is the outstanding legacy of His teaching which none can deny.

So, where Pagan belief structures enabled Satan, then surely it is that Paganism mixed with the real and truthfully grounded Faith in Jesus that early Christians sustained; but Paganism is symbolic of so many different beliefs. Just as there are today many Christians whom retain actual Faith in One God, who is Allah, and whom never doubted the reality of Jesus; there have also always been self decent Pagans sustaining Faith in Allah.

So Judge no system of belief except that it can sustain any individual alone and unique in Allah. As for what a culture is, why surely we must hold the definition of culture by that same regard. If there is no comprehension of reality in Allah, then insanity is all that can exist. So a Religion is only different in that it provides a quality of structure of sets of the same sequences in mental associations that can work in many different persons minds, so as to sustain unity in Allah. Religion is Taqleed and in that unity in Ummah. Surely Paganism implied only that there were many various little Ummah, rather than any large unified Ummah? There may have been, and still now be, tribes of Pagans whom sustain no Faith in Allah, and other tribes who can and are sustaining Faith in Allah, and within one larger Ummah. Islam has considerably more success in permanently converting such persons into a permanent position of Faith in Allah, than could Judaism or Christianity, though clearly Christianity has been far more successful than Judaism.

But it is also that once in full Faith in Allah, and with Qur'an and ahadith learned; there could readily exist persons manifesting their Islam within contexts that seem to be Pagan.

So it need to be said that it is important to be more specific about verbal expression. Insha Allah, the worth in the discussion in this sort of thread can be drawn out by making more explicit the actual belief of each person posting. There is no point in engaging in discussion when beliefs have no accordance because they only manifest as blind attempts at entrappment of each other's belief; so unless you have either a direct question, or a certainty of belief that is able to be clearly expressed, then why post? And if it is only to seek fault in others, then discussion waffles off into nonsensical speculation that bears little relation to either actual Religion or any other manifestations that express a culture sustaining to true belief. Now I might here add that this particular thread is only quite slightly heading in that direction, but I stumbled into it while in a state of mind of being fed up with such matters, and so unable to continue to support without speaking my mind. When speculation is that which tempts folk into a position in which they learn that they need to sustain Faith in Allah, then it is matter of worth, but when such waffles about in respect of the importance of believing in One God, whom is Allah, then there is no possibility of the discussion being useful.

What is clear cut in the initial post is that there is a question about whether early Christianity was thwarted by contact with persons whom had no belief in One God, or whether it was thwarted by Satan. Both are true. The answer is that as Christianity grew Satan tempted persons whom were converting so as to begin to seperate whom would fall into the Synagogue of Satan (manifiesting these days as the Catholic Church while ever it supports any belief in Rosicrucianism and other occultist falisfications of Jesus); from who is truly able to sustain real belief in their own redemption, and thereby accept following Jesus. Jews are those whom are enabled to sustain their Faith in Allah with enough strenght of conviction that they can live true to Jesus example without needing Gospel. But take the caution seriously that there are many whom believe and manifest as like a pagan. There exist, for example, true believers within Masonic Lodges. Also Wicca is an example of a Religious Faith in which Islam has been sustained.

Perhaps my point should be only that when a discussion such as this commences, there is a need to consider the massive breath of population that such forums are accessible to, and so to establish in each thread a shared comprehension of word meanings?

Mu'asalam.

 

[Curaezipirid]

assalamalaikum, oops, I forgot to wrap it back up into the quote at the start:

That such a quote has come to represent modern Christianity, as though no follower of Jesus need suffer since He has for us, is that belief that mixed with early Christianity to form the modern version of a shaytan only variety of Christianity. Truly Jesus suffered for us, to give us His example, that a Man (or woman) will survive even the fire of Hell. So if the word Pagan means that belief of a route out of ones own accountablity in Allah, then the initial position is correct; so what is a Pagan anyway? I hear that modern Pagans gad about dressed up in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways, but whether they believe in One God, whom is Allah, they are not letting on, and therefore, we must not Judge them as though they are non-believers. Assuming of each other that Faith is stable in One God and that it is faults that must be proven rather than real belief in Allah, is also actual expectation of safety in expressing Faith in Allah. So what can this reveal about this thread, and about Pagans? And is it that we manifest alike to Pagans only by discussing them?

mu'asalam

 

[duskiness]

the statement above contains a huge contradiction. Im not a scholar or anything, but i can definitely tell you that God and humans are two totally different things. Your either a God or a human, when you say he is human and God, your contradicting yourself.

Faith that God became man ("Word became flesh") is the very core of christian faith! We know that it's "a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23) but we believe that Jesus was both God and man. Fully God, fully man.

I can't put it better than it's said in polish carol:
"God is born, power is terrified
Lord of heaven is naked!
fire is freezing, light is dimming
the One who is boundless has limits
spurned and glorified
mortal king of ages
and the Word became flesh"
n.

 

[Curaezipirid]

alaikumassalam

word became flesh does not mean that God became flesh

God is not the word, but the cause of

mu'asalam

 

[Jayda]

alaikumassalam

word became flesh does not mean that God became flesh

God is not the word, but the cause of

mu'asalam

actually it does mean that... at the beginning of John it says "and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

 

[sameer]

actually it does mean that... at the beginning of John it says "and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

:? how does that translate to god became flesh?

 

[Jayda]

:? how does that translate to god became flesh?

John continues to say "and the word became flesh"

Here I will just post the whole thing...

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

 

[bluesky83]

Interesting read on how Christianity evolved:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm

It's a huge article, but here are the main headings:

Similarities between Paganism and Christianity

Reasons for the similarities

My comments: The most reasonable reasons seems to be the Christianity copied pagan rituals. Another theory was that Satan did it to decieve. If that is indeed the case, then almost all Christians are under influence of Satan, as evident through paganist rituals during Christmas, Easter, and other holy events. Another good reason is that Christians found paganistic rituals as the literal truth. This idea is gaining widespread popularity. However, under historical evidence, a good reason may be forgery, where this "god-man" theory has become a hoax. From my understanding, there were numerous individuals before Christ who claimed divinity.

Implications of the similarities

My comments: Conservative Christians in the Middle East and other holy regions (the minority) consider the Bible as the one and only truth and completely disregard paganistc rituals. Some theorists claim that "miracles" such as the virgin birth, miraculous healings, crucifixion, ascension etc. were all paganistic ideas during Christ's time. Thus many of the Christian beliefs are not original. Personally, I find Christianity as paganism with a monotheistic god-man/man-god.

As someone who used t ostudy paganism (i.e. Wicca), this is very true. The reason Christians used Pagan holidays as their own was because it would make it easier to convert the Pagans. Historically I THINK (think being the keyword) it has actually been proven that Jesus was not born in December. Christmas falls on the Pagan's Yule, Easter falls on the Pagan's Ostara. Most Pagan holidays are placed around the changing of the seasons and equinoxes (hence the reason for their dates). The trinity is also a Pagan concept (Mother, Goddess, Crone) which is a representation of the full, waxing, and waning moons. I don't know if Christians borrowed that, I don't want to claim that they did. Besides the Bible's trinity and the pagan trinity seem to be two entirely different things. Just a little info =)

 

[Curaezipirid]

Alaikumassalam

indeed the word is with Allah:

The word, is "Allah"

mu'asalam