Eating pork

[جوري]

Does the lack of a cysticercosis threat mean you're quite happy with a beef tapeworm infestation?
?

What exactly is your inquiry?
I like your gumption btw.. seems you grew a backbone upon my request for an account suspension~!

might do you some good by the way when you want to take me on, to read all I write?

as stated in my post.. you don't need to make a super genetically engineered clean pig to bypass God's law.. If you've built your faith on reason, then you'll accept the minor nuances that come with the territory -- I don't think we are missing much? Do you miss eating Giraffes or zebras? We have an abundance of everything else-- why do we always have to go for what is prohibited? Be that as it may-- you can get a series of worms that can set shop anywhere from ANY meat you eat, it is true-- but a B12 deficiency from Diphyllobothrium latum from a fish hardly compares to Neurocystericosis whatever the percentage!

peace

 

[Chuck]

What exactly is your inquiry?
I like your gumption btw.. seems you grew a backbone upon my request for an account suspension~!

might do you some good by the way when you want to take me on, to read all I write?

Welcome back sister

 

[جوري]

Welcome back sister

Allah yikhleek akhi.. Baraka Allah feek

 

[Zamtsa]

Eventhough we could find cleaner Pigs, we couldn't resist to offer thee the facts in National Geographic, about Bird Flu caused by Swine's meat.
The story was that a bat was infected by Virus and the bat ate a fruit and the fruit was being eaten by the Swine in a cage.
Proven that Viruses could live and multiply themselves easier in the Swine's body. This is the first factor.

2nd factor, we only eat animals who are Herbivores and they eat clean things. Rasulullah had forbid Muslim to eat land Carnivores and Himar (donkey) at Khaibar war. And he also forbade us to eat a **** eating camel.

3rd, He forbade us to eat something because it has bad characteristics which you could found on Swine which is unclean naturally and they liked to switch partners for sexual intercourses. The donkey also has a bad character, that was why Rasulullah forbade Muslim to eat it, because we'll eat part of their flesh, and that will soon unite to our own DNA and genes.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).

 

[Azy]

I like your gumption btw.. seems you grew a backbone upon my request for an account suspension~!

I haven't been all that active lately so I wasn't aware, but it would be such a dull place without you

For future conversations with residents of the UK, gumption is usually only taken to mean 'common sense' here. I like it, people should use the word more often.

What exactly is your inquiry?
might do you some good by the way when you want to take me on, to read all I write?

Probably, but it wouldn't have made much difference to my question. If T. solium infestation and the associated ailments are some kind of divine warning against eating pork, what then does T. saginata and it's negative effects tell us about beef?

Also, some people contributing to this thread think it is difficult to prevent but simply cooking the meat properly kills the parasites, so eradication of the tapeworm is not a big problem.
To quote the DEFRA Zoonoses Report 2007, "There have been no reports of the cysts of T. solium in pigs for many years in the UK."

T. solium is not a pig parasite that infects humans, it is a human parasite that most often uses pigs as an intermediate host. T. solium is also known to use sheep as an intermediate and can also propagate without spreading to other species at all. Since humans are the definitive host and therefore the parasite cannot exist without them, it seems strange that people are persecuting the pigs when it is us that infects them, not the other way round.

The general point you're making is that pigs are bad because they spread serious diseases, but no mention has been made of cattle. Approximately 1% of European infections of TB are bovine TB and farming regulations there are more strict than places like Africa. According to the WHO bovine TB has a higher mortality rate than other strains, is less responsive to treatment and may make up a "substantial fraction" of cases in developing nations.
Given that 1.6 million people a year die from TB it seems likely that at the very least 16,000 of those are from bovine TB and the actual numbers could be well into the hundreds of thousands.

Why is noone crying out about unclean cattle when they are responsible for so much disease and death?

Eventhough we could find cleaner Pigs, we couldn't resist to offer thee the facts in National Geographic, about Bird Flu caused by Swine's meat.
The story was that a bat was infected by Virus and the bat ate a fruit and the fruit was being eaten by the Swine in a cage.
Proven that Viruses could live and multiply themselves easier in the Swine's body. This is the first factor.

It's true that pigs can receive/transmit diseases from both birds and humans but that is not the case here. Both the WHO and CDC believe that the disease was transmitted by direct contact with infected birds.

The fact that a particular species can pass infection to another species does in no way prove "that viruses live and multiply easier in a swine's body".

2nd factor, we only eat animals who are Herbivores and they eat clean things. Rasulullah had forbid Muslim to eat land Carnivores and Himar (donkey) at Khaibar war. And he also forbade us to eat a **** eating camel.
3rd, He forbade us to eat something because it has bad characteristics which you could found on Swine which is unclean naturally and they liked to switch partners for sexual intercourses. The donkey also has a bad character, that was why Rasulullah forbade Muslim to eat it, because we'll eat part of their flesh, and that will soon unite to our own DNA and genes.

I think you need to find out more about how digestion and genetics work, your food does not unite with your DNA.

As Woodrow said, pigs are quite clean in their natural environment, tending to eat plants, nuts, berries, worms and insects when they're available.

Personally I find chickens to be rather ill-tempered but I doubt that would prevent anyone from eating them. However, they are omnivores like pigs, not herbivores. When not in captivity they eat worms and insects, and are quite fond of lizards and frogs when they can get them. Chickens are also known to occasionally hunt smaller birds for food. Does anyone here eat chicken?

 

[aamirsaab]

... Does anyone here eat chicken?

I had part of a chicken for lunch. Yummy, yum in my tum-tum.

Thing with chicken is you can actually drain its blood without destroying the corpse - you canne do that with a piggy. (see my first post on this thread) and thus pig is forbidden (well, one of the reasons anyway)

 

[Dawud_uk]

Hi,

I note that Muslims and Jews don’t eat pork. As there is no rational reason not to eat pork I presume that there is something written in the scriptures of both religions forbidding the eating of pork? I suspect that a couple of thousand years back pigs were full of all manner of worms etc., and there was a good reason to steer people away from pork and that’s how it might of got itself into Jewish scriptures but how did it get into Islamic teachings?

if you thought like we did, accepted a creator, accepted rationally that he had sent us a book then the only rational thing for such a person to do would be to obey his creator, to do otherwise wouldnt be rational at all.

but to anyone outside of this belief, the actions in following that faith seem to lack ration. understand?

 

[Dawud_uk]

just about everyone here has fallen into the classic trap when it comes to eating pig, this is why knowledge is important or you just keep repeating the mistakes of the past.

we don't not eat pork because it is dirty or carries diseases etc, we don't eat pork as Allah swt has told us not to, this is our position as Ahlus sunnah.

let me explain,

in the early days of islam there was a sect called the Mu'tazila, who believed everything comes from ration and in many ways elevated ration above revelation, they put their aql before their naql.

for example they said the Quran is the creation of Allah not the word of Allah, because words require a voice and a voice requires a throat and a diaphram to push out the air and lungs and this is putting a human body on the creator so the Quran must be a creation of Allah not the word of Allah.

see how messed up they are? Aql before naql and by doing so can take you outside of islam when you start to say things about Allah and his messenger (saws) and the shariah of Allah you have no right to say.

now one day a kaffir comes up and asks one of them why they don't eat pig, so the mu'taziyite scholar says because it is filthy, unclean, all the reasons used above in this thread.

so the non-muslim goes away, takes a piglet, raises it purely only eating vegetation, keeping it clean and then when it is ready to be eaten comes back to the mu'tazilite and asks him to eat it as is now pure, vegetarian, hasnt been kept in filth.

the mu'tazilite is totally destroyed in his arguments, his ration has lost to the ration of the kaffir.

but when the same trick is tried on a scholar of ahlus sunnah he says he doesn't eat it as Allah has forbidden it,

after this we can then go into a discussion on what is revelation and give da'wah to the non-muslim, explain our way of life and why we follow the Quran and sunnah, submitting only to Allah swt and calling to Tawheed. every single issue the kuffar come at us with to do with the particulars of islam can be turne this way to a discussion on tawheed.

 

[i_m_tipu]

just about everyone here has fallen into the classic trap when it comes to eating pig, this is why knowledge is important or you just keep repeating the mistakes of the past.

we don't not eat pork because it is dirty or carries diseases etc, we don't eat pork as Allah swt has told us not to, this is our position as Ahlus sunnah.

let me explain,

in the early days of islam there was a sect called the Mu'tazila, who believed everything comes from ration and in many ways elevated ration above revelation, they put their aql before their naql.

for example they said the Quran is the creation of Allah not the word of Allah, because words require a voice and a voice requires a throat and a diaphram to push out the air and lungs and this is putting a human body on the creator so the Quran must be a creation of Allah not the word of Allah.

see how messed up they are? Aql before naql and by doing so can take you outside of islam when you start to say things about Allah and his messenger (saws) and the shariah of Allah you have no right to say.

now one day a kaffir comes up and asks one of them why they don't eat pig, so the mu'taziyite scholar says because it is filthy, unclean, all the reasons used above in this thread.

so the non-muslim goes away, takes a piglet, raises it purely only eating vegetation, keeping it clean and then when it is ready to be eaten comes back to the mu'tazilite and asks him to eat it as is now pure, vegetarian, hasnt been kept in filth.

the mu'tazilite is totally destroyed in his arguments, his ration has lost to the ration of the kaffir.

but when the same trick is tried on a scholar of ahlus sunnah he says he doesn't eat it as Allah has forbidden it,

after this we can then go into a discussion on what is revelation and give da'wah to the non-muslim, explain our way of life and why we follow the Quran and sunnah, submitting only to Allah swt and calling to Tawheed. every single issue the kuffar come at us with to do with the particulars of islam can be turne this way to a discussion on tawheed.

JajakAllah bro..

 

[Azy]

I had part of a chicken for lunch. Yummy, yum in my tum-tum.

Thing with chicken is you can actually drain its blood without destroying the corpse - you canne do that with a piggy. (see my first post on this thread) and thus pig is forbidden (well, one of the reasons anyway)

To be quite honest I didn't think chicken was haram (otherwise every muslim I know would be in trouble), it was just a response to Mr Thayyib's assertion that Islam permits one to eat only herbivores.

edit: Seems to be something to do with a hadith prohibiting fanged beasts and birds of prey, not specifically carnivores or omnivores.

 

[Zico]

Isn't there a saying "You are what you eat"? If so then thank God I dont eat pig lol

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Isn't there a saying "You are what you eat"? If so then thank God I dont eat pig lol

Why not, pigs are supposed to be highly intelligent and social and when properly cared for, one of the cleanest domesticated species.

 

[Zico]

Why not, pigs are supposed to be highly intelligent and social and when properly cared for, one of the cleanest domesticated species.

If you call eating discusting things and literally bathing in them intelligent, then I don't know what to say!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If you call eating discusting things and literally bathing in them intelligent, then I don't know what to say!

When they're not properly cared for, they will resort to many things, just like humans actually.
If I should ever stop eating pork, it will be because of the pigs themselves rather than my health.

 

[Zico]

When they're not properly cared for, they will resort to many things, just like humans actually.
If I should ever stop eating pork, it will be because of the pigs themselves rather than my health.

It's you're body, you're rules!!

 

[جوري]

I haven't been all that active lately so I wasn't aware, but it would be such a dull place without you

I see you are just a persistent verruca?

For future conversations with residents of the UK, gumption is usually only taken to mean 'common sense' here. I like it, people should use the word more often.

in America is means Fortitude and determination.. I like it too, hence I used it.. in the negative sense though!

Probably, but it wouldn't have made much difference to my question. If T. solium infestation and the associated ailments are some kind of divine warning against eating pork, what then does T. saginata and it's negative effects tell us about beef?

Perhaps it would do you some good to re-read what I have written instead of modifying your meaning on every response back to me as I have pretty much covered it all!
let's break it down again perhaps the systematic approach will stick with you?
1-Every meat has potential for a worm infestation (COVERED CHECK)
2-All worms are not created equal, evidenced by my writing 'B12 deficiency from Diphyllobothrium latum for instance can't be made to compare to Neuro-Cysticercosis (it isn't a mere tinea this or tinea that) (COVERED CHECK)
3- HERE IT COMES NOW DRUM ROLLS ******* THERE NEED NOT BE A WARNING AGAINST WHAT WASN'T PROHIBITED, AS THERE NEED NOT BE A SCIENTIFIC REASON BEHIND A PROHIBITION ( I did cover that) all the reason there needs be for a prohibition is that Allah swt willed it so. These are the commandments which don't need to concern you, as I have also stated and linked to the fact that Worm infestation isn't a very rampant ordeal and we actually have meds not when it gets neurological but nonetheless if caught early enough...

my original post shall be the cure to your oh so frequent memory lapses

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134275270-eating-pork-2.html#post1059069

Also, some people contributing to this thread think it is difficult to prevent but simply cooking the meat properly kills the parasites, so eradication of the tapeworm is not a big problem.
To quote the DEFRA Zoonoses Report 2007, "There have been no reports of the cysts of T. solium in pigs for many years in the UK."

See above reply and the previous page for the worm cycle as it is--mere contact with fecal matter is enough for infestation!
Also, not previously mentioned but Contact with pigs associated with high prevalence of Toxoplasma gondii, it isn't merely a cat feces disease folks but how many areas must I cover?..I don't have the whole day to give you the medical compendium in two paragraphs or less.. and I am really the wrong person to argue this with, because whenever you are done, I'll throw something else your way that will have nothing to do with worms or tineas all together-- I suggest you read before you cut/paste me third party sources.

T. solium is not a pig parasite that infects humans, it is a human parasite that most often uses pigs as an intermediate host. T. solium is also known to use sheep as an intermediate and can also propagate without spreading to other species at all. Since humans are the definitive host and therefore the parasite cannot exist without them, it seems strange that people are persecuting the pigs when it is us that infects them, not the other way round.

you should focus your efforts really.. as my previous posts discusses Cysticercosis and NeuroCysticercosis as a detrimental manifestation of tinea solium so you won't waste your efforts chasing waldo.. when waldo wasn't the focus of the discussion..
LIFE CYCLE AND TRANSMISSION*—*Cysticercosis is transmitted by ingestion of T. solium eggs shed in the stool of a human tapeworm carrier (show figure 1). Following ingestion, embryos (oncospheres) hatch in the small intestine, invade the bowel wall and disseminate hematogenously to brain, striated muscles, liver, and/or other tissues. Over a period of three to eight weeks, tissue cysticerci develop; these consist of membranous walls filled with fluid and protoscolices (composed of rudimentary bodies and heads with suckers and hooks). Localization of cysts to the brain results in neurocysticercosis; humans with cysticercosis are incidental dead end hosts.

Humans become T. solium tapeworm carriers by ingesting undercooked pork containing cysticerci in muscle tissue. Once ingested, the protoscolices are released from the cysts and attach to the human small intestine by their suckers and hooks. Subsequently, maturation into an adult tapeworm occurs over a period of two to four months. Adult tapeworms can reside in the small intestine for years; they may develop up to 7 m in length with each proglottid segment containing 50,000 to 100,000 eggs.

again see previous page or link above!

The general point you're making is that pigs are bad because they spread serious diseases, but no mention has been made of cattle. Approximately 1% of European infections of TB are bovine TB and farming regulations there are more strict than places like Africa. According to the WHO bovine TB has a higher mortality rate than other strains, is less responsive to treatment and may make up a "substantial fraction" of cases in developing nations.

Actually that isn't the point I have made at all and I quote myself from post number 25

Also as a general rule there need NOT be any scientific reason for a prohibition-- if it is brilliant in part and you have come to accept it, then by same token you'll accept the whole, even if it doesn't make much sense to you...

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134275270-eating-pork-2.html

.. I know, I know, It is the point you wish I had made so that your insta google search can make you pound hard on your chest .. I am sorry to have to do this

you don't need all that air anyway =)

Given that 1.6 million people a year die from TB it seems likely that at the very least 16,000 of those are from bovine TB and the actual numbers could be well into the hundreds of thousands.

You should take that out with your govt.
I have always felt the brits to be a little bit mad indeed..
I have avoided the madness and the cows when I visited last!
again, your point is lost to me? If you have an outbreak of mad cows and mad brits you should do something to control it?

Why is noone crying out about unclean cattle when they are responsible for so much disease and death?

You are not crying now?
be that as it may you can be your new cause.. you can be an anti-bovine advocate!
I suspect you'll have a wide following with the peta folks...


As for the rest.. I have no time to entertain outpourings of nonsense.. perhaps you can avoid yourself and everyone else all of this if you'd merely read before you write? what do you think?..
Two times I have un-subscribed from this thread, as what I have written and provided from the scientific journal is quite adequate..
Don't keep baiting me with the same question phrased in hordes of colorful ways!

You are not skilled enough to take me on!

cheers

 

[Zico]

^ Go sis!! Jazaki Allah Khiar

 

[جوري]

^ Go sis!! Jazaki Allah Khiar

This is the same fellow who was arguing with me the benefits of carrying sickle celled trait . and every article thence on he'd find some perverted way to make it fit with his intents although he has no understanding whatsoever of the science behind it.. and contradicts himself frequently as is usually the case when you have learned something five minutes ago and then come paste it on a forum!

I don't want to start another argument but it does seem like you're being purposefully evasive because it's clear what his point is.

The first line of the page you posted states :
"Sickle cell trait usually is not regarded as a disease state because it has complications that are either uncommon or mild. Nevertheless, under unusual circumstances serious morbidity or mortality can result".

If it provided benefit in 99% of cases and was detrimental in 1% it's obvious that it would persist.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134268109-being-atheist-13.html#post991934


to which I have replied

Indeed, and Malaria is a dz state --schizont infected Rbcs which like afore mentioned causes -- such as hypoxia, acidosis, high altitude etc cause the RBC's to go into a state similar to that of fulminant sickle cell.. i.e disabling the schizonts from surviving.. thus substituting one disease state for another doesn't confer immunity or superior genetics.. else we'd all be lining up at pfizer asking for vectors to transoform our normal hemoglobin to the carrier trait in case we desire a leave of absence to the Serengeti!
It is serendipitous that folks already in an ailing state not succumb to a superimposed infection..

He must enjoy the public abasements as I can see no logical reason to engage a topic when you have no clear understanding of it?

sob7an Allah
as is in the Quran
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA]
[/FONT]

[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA] وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا {54}[/FONT]​

[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 18:54] ----- but man is more than anything contentious.[/SIZE][/FONT]



anyhow, with that I hope we are done with this!

 

[Woodrow]

I have yet to figure out why there is such an obsession with pigs, pork chops and swine. I believe this has become the most posted subject on the Forums.

I will close this one with the ending I closed the others with.

We do not eat pork because Allaah(swt) has forbidden it to us. That is a sufficient reason for us not to eat it.