erm.. fitrah?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

There's a difference between the World Affairs section and the Comparative Religion section. Debates concerning the evidential foundations of a faith belong in the latter.

Thanks.

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

"infidel", "heathen" and "kuffar" are not exactly neutral either.

You say "reverts" only applies to those who have embraced Islam. What then is the implication for those who haven't? What does it imply for those who have not returned to the natural state intended by the Creator? I don't expect you to change anything, just advising you I find it offensive. I am not going to lose any sleep over it but it does give me a vague unease that several hundred million people seem to think they are better than me and the other 3 or 4 billion people in the world. There is the possibilty for mischief there.

I have no implication whatsoever for those who haven't reverted. I don't go to my bank clerk and say give me my money you kaffir, nor is it a way I introduce my kuffar friends to my family ( I usually go by their given name)-- I wonder why you don't expect change, yet still pose the comments that you do?....

other people' state of belief or disbelief isn't something that I give much thought to or lose lots of sleep over.. save for my dear friends whose state of affairs obviously concerns me by virtue of our friendship... I find it rather paranoid on your part to have a "vague sense of unease" over what other people think... someone somewhere is bound to not like you or to think thoughts that don't appeal to you... do you also worry about that guy too?

 

[SirZubair]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

DishDash is one of the reverts mentioned...and Afroz Ali is SirZubair's teacher

Yes, DishDash, otherwise known as Sean McNulty. A good friend of mine, allhumdulilah, he is one of a kind.

As for Shaykh Afroz Ali, he is one of the BEST people i know. He is one of the most generous, kindest people around. And an excellent teacher and friend.

May Allah swt keep them both out of harms way.

Thanks for posting this article bro.

As for the convert/revert issue..

"We fail to see Islam as a religion, and in the 20th century, we have a lot of these semantic gymnastics. So we say, for example, we don't convert to Islam, we revert to Islam, without really thinking about what we are saying. You revert, or something reverts back usually to a previous known state unconsciously. So we say, "The child reverted back to his bad habits", so the child isn't conscious of what he's doing or what she's doing. Whereas conversion involves a conscious decision. This person converted to Communism, he or she studied it and then made a conscious decision to embrace it. So I came here and I was doing an interview, and the interviewer said "When did you revert to Islam?", I said "I never reverted to Islam, I converted to Islam, I made a conscious decision to become a Muslim and I didn't unconsciously revert back to a state that's not even known to me." How can you revert back to something you don't know. A person might say "Every newborn is born in a natural Islamic state". That might be true but he or she doesn't know that, isn't conscious of that. So the parents made that child a Jew, Christian or a Muslim, thats what they are conscious of. So they reverted back to that? So we get into these kind of semantic things that are designed to manifest our sophisication, but they are only making a mess for ourselves individually and collectively…"

- Imam Zaid Shakir

There you go,... i think i've just blown the whale out of the water... :blind:

 

[Cognescenti]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

I have no implication whatsoever for those who haven't reverted. I don't go to my bank clerk and say give me my money you kaffir, nor is it a way I introduce my kuffar friends to my family ( I usually go by their given name)-- I wonder why you don't expect change, yet still pose the comments that you do?....

other people' state of belief or disbelief isn't something that I give much thought to or lose lots of sleep over.. save for my dear friends whose state of affairs obviously concerns me by virtue of our friendship... I find it rather paranoid on your part to have a "vague sense of unease" over what other people think... someone somewhere is bound to not like you or to think thoughts that don't appeal to you... do you also worry about that guy too?

Purest;

You seem like a nice chap. I am here to tell you I find the use of the term "kuffar" offensive. I dont think I am the only one. Try "non-Muslim". I am gratified to hear you don't call your bank clerk a "kuffir' to her face.

As for my "vague unease"....formerly I could care less....then somebody declared war on the country in which I live.

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

I have always taken the term "born on the fitrah" to mean, that if something untoward should happened to that child, their destination by G-D's will is heaven... contrast that with the catholic church's ruling on the state of un-baptized children who end up in limbo? I believe there was even a whole topic in the news as of late, as the new pope reversed that old belief, with G-D like assurance...

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

Purest;

You seem like a nice chap. I am here to tell you I find the use of the term "kuffar" offensive. I dont think I am the only one. Try "non-Muslim". I am gratified to hear you don't call your bank clerk a "kuffir' to her face.

Your gratification is my top one priority... Now, I think you should re question why this term bothers you so? considering it was pope Urban II who coined the term "infidel" as a declaration against Muslims.
Also as per dictionary it means an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion-- which I believe is really more a description like your appointed state of Atheism or Agnosticism -- I am sorry I didn't have time to read what you chose for yourself, however that is what you should contrast it to. Simply the state of not being Muslim--- or in times of Crusades, the state of not being a Christian-- do you really have a need to belong to a category? does not belonging to that category bother you? if it bothers you, you should deal with it in a more constructive manner!

As for my "vague unease"....formerly I could care less....then somebody declared war on the country in which I live.

That is very serious... you need to barricade yourself in-- and make sure you build some sturdy bomb shelter (stock up on food)... what are you doing entertaining us in such a high tech way--when you sound like you are in mortal danger?

peace!

 

[Cognescenti]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

I have always taken the term "born on the fitrah" to mean, that if something untoward should happened to that child, their destination by G-D's will is heaven... contrast that with the catholic church's ruling on the state of un-baptized children who end up in limbo? I believe there was even a whole topic in the news as of late, as the new pope reversed that old belief, with G-D like assurance...

Limbo is a good idea for a dance. It never was good theological concept. As for the Pope...you may chose to ridicule a religion which attempts to adapt with the times (sometimes inexpertly) but you do realize Islam used to have a Kaliphate? What did the guy in charge do? Manage the stock portfolio?

 

[Malaikah]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

What does the Kaliphate have to do with anything? The Caliphe is nothing like the pope, he is very much a political leader of ALL the Muslims, he doesn't have the same status of the pope (who is seen to be almost prophet-like).

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

Limbo is a good idea for a dance.

How about purgatory --a warm afternoon on a hammock?

It never was good theological concept

There is no theology behind it... one self appointed man of G-D on a gloomy day decided the fate of the mischievous/light believers as well as un baptized children should be somewhere in limbo... I believe it is universally accepted that children are innocent regardless of religion!

As for the Pope...you may chose to ridicule a religion which attempts to adapt with the times (sometimes inexpertly)

G-D's law is a constant and not subject to tides of change... it frightens me a little to think some scribes can interpret at whim, this isn't a constitution to amend ... I believe it a bit harsh to believe that un baptized children are doomed to hell which undoubtedly led many to bomb abortion clinics... (this is a whole other topic I don't wish to get into, on any level) just an observation as per an article I have read of the recent amend of Benedict XVI

but you do realize Islam used to have a Kaliphate? What did the guy in charge do? Manage the stock portfolio?

Really? for honest and for truth?-- What does that mean to you? With any luck Insha'Allah the khilafah shall be re-established.. a Khalif governed by G-D's law it was very successful for centuries.... I have no reason to believe it won't be once the Muslim empire gets back on its feet.

peace

 

[Cognescenti]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

Your gratification is my top one priority... Now, I think you should re question why this term bothers you so? considering it was pope Urban II who coined the term "infidel" as a declaration against Muslims.

I am pretty sure he didn't ask my permission. It was a bad idea then. It remains a bad idea now.

Also as per dictionary it means an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion

The historical slang term for African Americans is in the dictionary too. That doesn't mean it is a good idea to use it.

do you really have a need to belong to a category?

Do you?

..does not belonging to that category bother you?

Only if others base their actions on my membership in that category.

That is very serious... you need to barricade yourself in-- and make sure you build some sturdy bomb shelter (stock up on food)... what are you doing entertaining us in such a high tech way--when you sound like you are in mortal danger?

peace!

Ah ridicule! Nicely done. It appears my assessment of your benevolence was premature. I have no need for a bomb shelter. I do have concerns over what might happen over the next decades if efforts are not made to heal the Islam/Non-islam (or as you would say, Kuffar) rift in many parts of the world.

Keep using words that are perceived as hateful by others. It really worked out well for Urban II.

Peace (The use of this noun is purely rote and does not in any way inply goodwill. Readers should not infer any good intent from its use. The managemtn assumes no responsibility for lost or stolen articles)

 

[Cognescenti]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

There is no theology behind it... one self appointed man of G-D on a gloomy day decided the fate of the mischievous/light believers as well as un baptized children should be somewhere in limbo... I believe it is universally accepted that children are innocent regardless of religion!

I have previously stated the concept of orignal sin is troubling to me. It seems to me these are artifices to deal with the problem of defining redemption before a child can make properly informed decisions. In that sense, I find the Muslim concept superior. The problem for me comes when the child reaches a level of cognitive maturity to make a decision, but has been raised in <religion X>. How has he done wrong by not accepting Islam?

G-D's law is a constant and not subject to tides of change... it frightens me a little to think some scribes can interpret at whim, this isn't a constitution to amend

So, who is right then, the Sunni or the Shia?

... I believe it a bit harsh to believe that un baptized children are doomed to hell which undoubtedly led many to bomb abortion clinics... (this is a whole other topic I don't wish to get into, on any level) just an observation as per an article I have read of the recent amend of Benedict XVI

Good neither do I..though I generally agree with you on this point.

 

[Cognescenti]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

What does the Kaliphate have to do with anything? The Caliphe is nothing like the pope, he is very much a political leader of ALL the Muslims, he doesn't have the same status of the pope (who is seen to be almost prophet-like).

Yes, yes. I know that, but the Pope also had real political power at one time.

The Pope is not usually portrayed as prophet-like..after all...he is voted in by Cardinals. Prophets dont usually run for office.

Sometimes Popes make big mistakes...sometimes they get it right. (The elimination of most Latin in services for eg.)

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

I am pretty sure he didn't ask my permission. It was a bad idea then. It remains a bad idea now.

this affects me how?

The historical slang term for African Americans is in the dictionary too. That doesn't mean it is a good idea to use it.

That is a very poor analogy.. The term isn't meant in a derogatory sense-- meant as someone who doesn't believe.. just like some consider it an insult to be a Muslim.

Do you?

No I can't say I do.. I am happy where I am...holding on to my own moral compass as mandated by G-D-- whether I am on an island of infidels or one full of believers. Ultimately I'll be held in pledge of my own deeds, not those of the entire community...

Only if others base their actions on my membership in that category.

Therein lies your problem then... I perceive this as a severe form of paranoia

Ah ridicule! Nicely done. It appears my assessment of your benevolence was premature. I have no need for a bomb shelter. I do have concerns over what might happen over the next decades if efforts are not made to heal the Islam/Non-islam (or as you would say, Kuffar) rift in many parts of the world.

You know, I thought I'd spare you a long story on the account that I have a throbbing headache, but think it amusing nonetheless, as it really reminds me of the state of current predicament that England and the U.S find themselves in.. the story starts off innocuously enough with an old lady moving in to a quaint little town, on the account that her old town was full of murderous fools who were after the innocent for no apparent reason other than jealousy and resentment.. she started working in the library, and people were very sympathetic to her, she had a kind demeanor, always spoke with such conviction and appeared somehow fragile, thus making everyone want to protect her...

she would lock in the doors a thousand times to make sure no murderous fools would steal her money and rob her of her freedom, would constantly attest that you can't trust those youngens -- people often caught her browsing the accident page, and were terribly concerned as she heightened their awareness at the new state of affairs these constant murders and senseless killings...

one day as she was locking up the library and her young friend comes in to check on her to make sure she was alright-- and the old lady was taken aback in fear, so she takes out her knife and starts stabbing her young friend 33 times to death... the next scene starts with the little old lady in a new town, talking about the senseless murderers that cause her to move from one town to the next in pursuit of safety... moral of the story... paranoia and fear and hatred, will breed nothing, but paranoia, fear and hatred plus murder of innocent people and confusing everyone along with you as to how things spiraled so far out of hand.

Keep using words that are perceived as hateful by others. It really worked out well for Urban II.

this isn't leprosy why don't you calm down?

Peace (The use of this noun is purely rote and does not in any way inply goodwill. Readers should not infer any good intent from its use. The managemtn assumes no responsibility for lost or stolen articles)

Indeed.. it is a generic term, I enjoy using it in closure

peace!

 

[جوري]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

I have previously stated the concept of orignal sin is troubling to me. It seems to me these are artifices to deal with the problem of defining redemption before a child can make properly informed decisions. In that sense, I find the Muslim concept superior. The problem for me comes when the child reaches a level of cognitive maturity to make a decision, but has been raised in <religion X>. How has he done wrong by not accepting Islam?.

I don't know... that is too general a term... Besides judgment is more about justice than anything. I have written extensively before about this topic before... and quoted from the Noble Quran

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}​

[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}​

[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


further making notation that though Abu Lahab was destined for hell from his evil deeds, he shall be granted respite on Mondays for it was the day he spared a slave girl, on the account that he had a new born male nephew... That is just one minor example... I have never really been big on who shall receive what... everyone's judgment is with their creator

So, who is right then, the Sunni or the Shia?.

see previous reply... further we are told G-D is with the majority and 90% of Muslims are sunni.. sunni is the path of the prophet... I don't know why people create faction... to make this a bit clearer for you... if you have learned through netters anatomy that the brachial plexus is an arrangement of nerve fibres (a plexus) running from the spine (vertebrae C5-T1-- but you insist that it belongs to (S1-S4) though all evidence and research attests that S1-S4 is where sacral plexus lies, then who is right and who is wrong? Some people want to rename things... it doesn't make it correct... If you have the law laid down, there is no reason to create factions on whims... especially when we were excessively warned against sectarianism.. again I say each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds... being ignorant doesn't exempt you, especially if you are literate, to just go read and learn for yourself instead of following the whims of your forefathers.

Good neither do I..though I generally agree with you on this point.

Great then-- maybe we can call it a night!

peace

 

[SirZubair]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

ONCE again, i just want to bring a post to the attention of everyone that is banging on about Children being born in the state of fitrah and reverts :

http://www.islamicboard.com/725185-post30.html

 

[snakelegs]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

the way i understood the article is that people are realizing that they do not have to choose between being religious or being educated and part of the modern world and are realizing they can be both. they do not have to be marginalized.
i think that's a good thing and in the long run, it will have a positive effect.

 

[Joe98]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

A---h's law is a constant and not subject to tides of change...

If there is a g-d he is not precise with his laws. Within each religion there are different interpretations.

Which can only mean there is no g-d.

 

[Uthman]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

Greetings Ruggedtouch,

You raised a lot of points in your post, but I will only attempt to address those which are relevant to the topic being discussed. For the rest of your points which I find very interesting, I advise you to create a new topic in the Comparative Religion section if you wish to discuss them.

Exploration, experimentation and testing are the hallmarks of science.

I don't doubt that they are, but has any of this been done to test this concept of Fitrah?

Well, we certainly don’t see primitive South American tribal cultures embracing any of the widely followed polytheistic or monotheistic religions. Neither does the Eskimo culture, American Indian, etc., etc. The list goes on.

Oh, I see where you're coming from. I feel the need to clarify because I think there has been some miscommuncation on my part. To that end, when we say that mankind is born upon the Fitrah, we do not mean that they are born having automatically been subscribed to the religion of Islam. We are talking about the underlying principles upon which Islam is based i.e. Tawheed. Specifically, Tawheed-ur Ruboobeeyah (Unity of Allah's Lordship) and Tawheed-al-eebadah or Tawheed-al-Uloohiyyah (Unity of Allah's worship). The concept of Tawheed is explained in detail here

Regards

 

[Uthman]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

Greetings Cognescenti,

Nothing like the dawn of a new day, huh? Ok, it is past mid-day but I had a lie-in.

It is really the implication of a descent from a state of purity or naturalness that is offensive.

I see. The emphasis really is on the purity of the Muslims rather than the 'impurity' of the non-Muslims. That said, I can understand why the word 'impure' would be offensive. Yes, they are said to have digressed from their natural state but It is not like they are looked down upon and pitied because at the end of the day (i.e. the day of judgement) the non-Muslims will be judged on their piety and good action while the Muslims will be judged on how well they followed Islam.

It seems to me, this would lead to a patronizing view of the "Kuffar" among Muslims. That such a view exists among many Muslims I think has been amply demonstrated.

Well, I can only speak for myself. I believe in the Fitrah but I am not aware of any prejudice towards the Kuffar on my part. I really don't think this is the reason.

According to the link you provided...we are to be forgiven for this unfortunate detour until we can speak for ourselves (around puberty it seems)..but then we are in big trouble.

(emphasis mine)

Why are you in big trouble?

I am willing to admit the concept of "redemption" among Christians could also be offensive to non-Christians but, in general, I think the West is over the Manifest Destiny phase.

That is the honest belief of the Christians and I do not believe they can be blamed for believing something that their religion tells them to believe. For that reason, I am not offended by it. I agree that the West is over the 'Manifest Destiny' phase for now, but just wait until...http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/38808-islam-could-become-europe-s-dominant-religion.html

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Regards

 

[Uthman]

Re: The Australian face of Islam

and Greetings to the non-muslims,

With regards to the discussion about the use of the term Kafir, there was a discussion about it in this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/21502-use-infidel-kafir.html

The point about the slang term for the African-Americans was also discussed (and it turns out that it wasn't a derogatory term originally)

and Regards