Evidence that the Quran is the true world of Allah.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

To clarify some confusion here:

The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted.

There are a number of verses to note in this regard:


So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. [5:13-15]

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. [3: 77-78]

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. [3:187]

 

[جوري]

About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.

Hadeeth has a science behind it which is divided by 3 other sciences all of which connect to the mustalah of hadeeth on top of which some of the muhaditheen differed in certain points so a reference like an article or a book would better help you to introduce the basic matters of hadeeth and its acceptability

you can read of the entire process here:
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthread.php?2760-which-hadiths-are-saheeh
and here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/4987-uloom-al-hadeeth-basics-classification.html

Of course you're incorrect about the compilation of hadith as you're the content of the Quran, and venture so say that you should really look up things about Islam and Muslims before sharing them with Islam and Muslims.
A mazhab is not a 'regional grouping' nor does it differ in meaning or interpretation. It is merely another acceptable way of doing something. Does washing your face first matter or brushing your teeth first thing in the morning.. No Mazhab will say forgo one or both or emphasize importance of one over the other.. rather leaves it open that there's more than one way of reaching the same end correctly.

Now, why do you concern yourself with such specifics of which you are obviously familiar from zero to nill when you don't even believe that God exists? What is the point of a discussion of this nature?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Oh come on, you can do better than that. I am not assuming, am I, when I am asking a question. Oh goodness, what level of communication is this?

So your purpose of repeatedly asking the question although i've responded already?

Nope, just a curious question.

Thank you. That would explain it.

You are welcome.

Ooops, I don't fully understand. Are we talking about the contents of the revelation, the Koran? Do I believe the contents to be correct or that it is of divine origin, or both?

Do you believe the contents to be correct and of divine origin?

About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.

I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.
Or atleast where did you get this information from?

I sincerely hope during your stay here you can gain some knowledge, inshaa'Allaah..

All of this has been subjected to scholarly scrutiny over the centuries and has led to interpretations which differ in details and has led to regional madhabs and groupings, which differ in rituals, jurisprudence and interpretations of the meaning of sayings.

But surely there is an authentic source which refers back to the original, if all of these groups were to stick to this source they wouldn't lead to so many interpretations. Meaning the actual Qur'aan and the sayings of the prophet (saaws), where one will follow the actual meaning and not other's that differ from the original or actual teachings i.e. the revelation from God and the ahadeeth.

Perhaps you should study the 'madhabs' and increase in knowledge, they are not considered incorrect. Again sister منوة الخيال has provided you links in order to look into the topic.

Thank you for your understanding. I am not here to pass a knowledge test.

No, I asked the question in order to know whether you are aware of what your talking about.

You mention so and so, i wanted to know if you simply know the name of the cave,which is only little amount of information so everyone whose read the details in full should know this, to me that shows that one has some amount of knowledge and isn't just saying what they heard or read somewhere, but rather that they actually took time to read up themselves. Although not assuming your one whose done this.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

So basically the way it is told is that the Quran was put together after Muhammad died by the collection of hadiths and compiled into one book.

So basically it would be essential to provide some evidence.

The Qur'aan was memorized during the time of prophet (SAW) by numerous companions, not only that it was written down on whatever could be found.

The issue with this is that numerous ayat of Muhammad could have been not memorized since not many people memorize things in one turn and there is also the fact that things he said could have been mistranslated by one unimportant word. Along with the fact numerous companions of Muhammad died and with them any possible ayat they may have known.

Nope that's not completely the case, perhaps you shouldn've done some studying..

Is that really so? Have you not seen the 9 year olds and those much older who've memorized the whole book from cover to cover? What evidence do you have?

During the khilafa of Abu Bakr (in which the battle of Yamama took place) many Qurra' did die, but bear in mind that during the lifetime of Muhammad (PBUH) the Qur'aan was written down on whatever could be found, palmed stalks, thin white stones, and more. Zaid bin Thabit was a well known scribe who used write down all that which was revealed to the prophet (pbuh), so he was ordered (by Abu Bakr RA) to collect the Qur'aan as he was trusted and the right person to do so, therefore he Zaid collected all the fragments from all that it was written on and from those who had also memorized it. So once completed the complete manuscript remained with Abu Bakr (ra) untill he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, who then passed it onto his daughter Hafsa. Later during Uthman's RA khilafa, Hudhaifa came to Uthman RA during the war which waged between 2 groups (people of sham and iraq)read the rest in narration below, perhaps you'd gain some more understanding..If not feel free to ask..

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

The Quran is more obviously corrupted and contradictory then the Bible actually. I am not trying to hurt any Muslim but it is truthful. You can not put so much emphasis on any book or dogma because it all comes down to your worship of one god.

But you can say that the Torah, zabur, injeel and Qur'aan have many things in common? some of the teachings. You'll find that most of that which are agreement with the Qur'aan aren't disregarded.

To say Qur'aan is corrupt or either, is just putting yourself in a position where I can say, provide your evidence, it is simply an opinion you display there and nothing more.

Any ignorance on your part that cannot be helped will be forgiven. You cannot blame a paralyzed man for not making salah or a blind men for not "reading" the Quran or a mute person for not reciting it.

Your right, nor does the Qur'aan blame neither

 

[Perseveranze]

About 120 years after Muhammad's death ibn Ishaq wrote the first text about the events, the text of which was destroyed and is partially reproduced by ibn Hisham 80 years later. This is also when the first saying were recorded, which resulted in huge collections of what Muhammad was said to have said and done 200 or 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century. This is commonly known as hadiths, where 80% were deemed unauthentic and destroyed and we have 6 authentic or sahih collections and several less reliable ones. In between these we have the qudsi, which are said to have originated from a god, but were not included in the Koran as such.

1. The Islamic "hadith Sciences" is a far more advanced method of verifying historical data than the system western scholarship uses (to verify history), even till this very day.

So as far as historical reliability goes; it's extremely reliable.

2. Let me first see what you're referring to. Can you be specific on your claim, where were 80% of hadiths deemed unauthentic and destroyed?

 

[Perseveranze]

The issue with this is that numerous ayat of Muhammad could have been not memorized since not many people memorize things in one turn and there is also the fact that things he said could have been mistranslated by one unimportant word.

Given the amateur-ness of the argument, I'm guessing you're new to this.

Have a read;

---

Thus, if the Qur'an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as are seen in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as in the different transmissions of the original document of the constitution of Medina would be found. But neither is the case with the Qur'an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption. - Andrew Rippin (Ed.), Approaches Of The History of Interpretation Of The Qur'an, 1988, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 34.

---

And without wasting time; it should also be noted that even the majority of western Academic scholarship, believes that the Qur'an we have today, is the same Qur'an Muhammad(pbuh) preached.

ps. Your bible claim... a bit too far I'd say as far as reason and rational goes.

 

[StopS]

Hadeeth has a science behind it which is divided by 3 other sciences all of which connect to the mustalah of hadeeth on top of which some of the muhaditheen differed in certain points so a reference like an article or a book would better help you to introduce the basic matters of hadeeth and its acceptability

Of course you're incorrect about the compilation of hadith as you're the content of the Quran, and venture so say that you should really look up things about Islam and Muslims before sharing them with Islam and Muslims.
A mazhab is not a 'regional grouping' nor does it differ in meaning or interpretation. It is merely another acceptable way of doing something. Does washing your face first matter or brushing your teeth first thing in the morning.. No Mazhab will say forgo one or both or emphasize importance of one over the other.. rather leaves it open that there's more than one way of reaching the same end correctly.

Now, why do you concern yourself with such specifics of which you are obviously familiar from zero to nill when you don't even believe that God exists? What is the point of a discussion of this nature?

Thanks for the further information. I did not go into the methodology, just the hierarchy.

"of course" I am incorrect? If I am so incorrect, why don't you correct me? I am the Koran? I don't get it. Could you possibly manage to treat others like humans - even if they don't necessarily believe everything you do?

I am showing what I know and am asking for opinions/corrections/answers. You are providing none of that and just setting a bad example for Muslims. The Muslims I meet in real life are friendly, open and eager to discuss their belief and quite open about why they believe what they believe. You are none of that. You just criticise instead of providing constructive criticism. Why are you so uptight?

I put a map here showing the regional character of madhabs, but I am not allowed to show the source of my claim.


It seems you have your work cut out for a while as I don't make stuff up, but take it from reputable Islamic sources. Above is just an example.

All I said was "regional madhabs and groupings, which differ in rituals, jurisprudence and interpretations of the meaning of sayings" so what you are replying to is something you made up.

Why do you concern yourself with writing to me if you maintain I know nothing, am incorrect about everything I say and feel the need to school me about all sorts of things?

You see, you are a living negative.
When I first started showing interest in Islam I was told by Muslims: read the Koran. I did.
Then I was told: read the secondary texts. I tried.
Then I was told: read al least one tafsir. I did.
Then I was told: speak to an Imam. I did.
Then I was told: discuss this with a scholar. I did.
Then I was told: speak to Muslims who live this religion every day. I try and am treated like an outcast by some huffing and puffing Mr. high-'n-mighty.
Who the fuff do you think you are? What do you want? Are you here to help or do you prefer I get information about Islam from Jews or Christians? I think I am doing everything right and I think I deserve respect like any human does and which I show to you even though you did not earn it. Now either you shape up and engage in a friendly discussion or leave it.

 

[StopS]

Greetings,

To clarify some confusion here:

There are a number of verses to note in this regard:


So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. [5:13-15]

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. [3: 77-78]

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. [3:187]

Thank you for this compilation. Yes, this is my point. The examples above show that the topic is the usage of words and not the scripture itself. People are the cause of the corruption and later messengers were sent to rectify the people who had gone astray.

The Koran mentions books and people of the book several times. Islamic scholars are not in agreement, who the people of the book actually are (Nasr, Seyyed Hossein).
Similarly, 3:64 calls for tolerance in that "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you" and the Koran mentions in 22:17 "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists — God will judge them On the Day of Judgement" the solution.

This means that it is not the Koran itself which specifically mentions the alleged corruption, but the humans interpreting it.

 

[StopS]

Do you believe the contents to be correct and of divine origin?

Not without conclusive proof. The topic and decision is regarding my entire life here on Earth and then eternity in an alleged afterlife, so I would want to be very sure I take the right decision based on an informed opinion.

I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.
Or atleast where did you get this information from?

I sincerely hope during your stay here you can gain some knowledge, inshaa'Allaah..

Are you for real?

I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough - i can say that your indeed incorrect

If you have insufficient knowledge, what is your premise of concluding I am wrong???

I am looking to expand my knowledge, but so far, not a lot is forthcoming.

But surely there is an authentic source which refers back to the original, if all of these groups were to stick to this source they wouldn't lead to so many interpretations. Meaning the actual Qur'aan and the sayings of the prophet (saaws), where one will follow the actual meaning and not other's that differ from the original or actual teachings i.e. the revelation from God and the ahadeeth.

Perhaps you should study the 'madhabs' and increase in knowledge, they are not considered incorrect. Again sister منوة الخيال has provided you links in order to look into the topic.

And what? The Koran is just the pointer. It is rarely precise and contains very few hard facts, which is why scholars have been debating for centuries about the interpretation of sentences and what sign this is sending.

No, I asked the question in order to know whether you are aware of what your talking about.

You mention so and so, i wanted to know if you simply know the name of the cave,which is only little amount of information so everyone whose read the details in full should know this, to me that shows that one has some amount of knowledge and isn't just saying what they heard or read somewhere, but rather that they actually took time to read up themselves.

How is a detail like a name of a cave relevant to the knowledge a person has?

So you want some background?

Because there are no records of the angel talking to the messenger, humans have estimated this to be "approximately" "Monday night, 21. Ramadan, that is 10. August, 610 CE, with Muhammad aged exactly 40 years, 6 months and 12 days of age, that is, 39 Gregorian years, 3 months and 22 days". Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.

Muslims have also established the precise location: "3 km from Mecca, it was a small cave 3.5 m long and 1.6 m wide" and gave it a name: Hira.

Although not assuming your one whose done this.

Really? What makes you assume this? Stop being obnoxious, please. How do you think I know the rest of what I wrote? Which I did not look up, by the way, but wrote from the top of my head.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you for this compilation. Yes, this is my point. The examples above show that the topic is the usage of words and not the scripture itself. People are the cause of the corruption and later messengers were sent to rectify the people who had gone astray.

I am not sure I understand your point. Earlier you said, 'The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted'. Now you are saying corruption did take place, but it was through words only and by the people. Have you changed your argument?

The Koran mentions books and people of the book several times. Islamic scholars are not in agreement, who the people of the book actually are (Nasr, Seyyed Hossein).

It is best to refer to those scholars who are well-versed in Qur'anic exegesis. Moreover, it is quite clear from the context who is being referred to. In some verses, there is clear mention of Jews and Christians.

Similarly, 3:64 calls for tolerance in that "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you" and the Koran mentions in 22:17 "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists — God will judge them On the Day of Judgement" the solution.

This means that it is not the Koran itself which specifically mentions the alleged corruption, but the humans interpreting it.

What I see here is interpretation of the Qur'an by yourself. Why do you feel your interpretation deserves credibility over that of qualified scholars? You have quoted a scholar above when you feel it suits your cause. Why do you not refer to the words of scholars in other cases also?

 

[M.I.A.]

Greetings,

I am not sure I understand your point. Earlier you said, 'The Koran nowhere says: the Torah or Bible are corrupted'. Now you are saying corruption did take place, but it was through words only and by the people. Have you changed your argument?

It is best to refer to those scholars who are well-versed in Qur'anic exegesis. Moreover, it is quite clear from the context who is being referred to. In some verses, there is clear mention of Jews and Christians.

What I see here is interpretation of the Qur'an by yourself. Why do you feel your interpretation deserves credibility over that of qualified scholars? You have quoted a scholar above when you feel it suits your cause. Why do you not refer to the words of scholars in other cases also?

and sabiens, those resembling (in faith) jews and christians in part.

"Those who believe, those who became Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabians - any who believe in God and the Last Day, and performs good deeds - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Al-Maidah 5:69)

quickly Google'd it, not sure who they were exactly or how they fitted in with the jews "with history"

 

[جوري]

They were followers of the prophet yahya (John the baptist) most Jews stop at Zacharia, Mandeans and Sabeans who are a few left in Iraq stop at prophet Yahya as the last messanger!

best,

 

[True-blue]

Uffffff!!! Are you guys seriously arguing with someone like StopS whose comments are mostly wayward assertions?

Do not waste your precious time if you have any other things to do. He will persistently make sooooo many wayward assertions (He is an expert on this) that it will mostly waste your time. This guy is an Islam haters who are collecting information to distort them and make Youtube videos to mock Islam. He is known for attacking Islam and Muslims through his videos and also his comments. Just check Youtube and other Islamic forums.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace StopS,

Not without conclusive proof. The topic and decision is regarding my entire life here on Earth and then eternity in an alleged afterlife, so I would want to be very sure I take the right decision based on an informed opinion.

All the best in finding the right path.

Are you for real?
I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough - i can say that your indeed incorrect
If you have insufficient knowledge, what is your premise of concluding I am wrong???
I am looking to expand my knowledge, but so far, not a lot is forthcoming.

I have no premise, so take back what I said. Although what I should've initially said is that I disagree.

Also, it would be nice to provide references to your statements.

I'm not going to discuss the historical background of the Hadeeth as I do not deem myself knowledgeable enough, but i can say that your indeed incorrect in this statement.

However, I do believe the ahadeeth to be reliable source, and well your comment did not add up, perhaps from what i've read and listened to in regards to ahadeeth in the past, perhaps that's why I chose to say you are incorrect, but what I should've said is that I disagree. Maybe you'd like to watch this, there are 8 parts to it, since you want to expand your knowledge.

An introduction to hadeeth - by Jordan Brown

--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZQ8mwWwwDY&feature=related <---

You mentioned the hadeeth was said to have said and done 200 and 300 years earlier, by people who had a chain of narrative all the way to the early 7th century, can you provide evidence for this?

Also where were 80% ahadeeths deemed unauthentic and destroyed?

It would be really helpful if you could provide references to your statements.

And what? The Koran is just the pointer. It is rarely precise and contains very few hard facts, which is why scholars have been debating for centuries about the interpretation of sentences and what sign this is sending.

In all due respect, I disagree.

How is a detail like a name of a cave relevant to the knowledge a person has?
So you want some background?
Because there are no records of the angel talking to the messenger

I only asked a simple question to which you did not wish to respond to earlier. You mentioned details in regards to the cave, so I wondered if you knew the name, that's all. Your right it isn't relevant. I hope we can move on from this.

This narration below does show the angel talking to the messenger (SAW), and not the only case.

Volumn 009, Book 087, Hadith Number 111.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous... up to... that which he knew not." (96.15)

humans have estimated this to be "approximately" "Monday night, 21. Ramadan, that is 10. August, 610 CE, with Muhammad aged exactly 40 years, 6 months and 12 days of age, that is, 39 Gregorian years, 3 months and 22 days". Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.

Out of curiousity, do you have a source for this?

Muslims simply declare this, knowing it is just as imaginary as the birth date of Jesus.

For what purpose exactly do you make such a statement, i'm sure you know well muslims do not regard the birth of Jesus nor Muhammad (PBUTA) as imaginary.

Really? What makes you assume this? Stop being obnoxious, please. How do you think I know the rest of what I wrote? Which I did not look up, by the way, but wrote from the top of my head.

Have I caused offense to you in any way? or have been hateful towards you?

All I want is a pleasant discussion.

I'd like to clear it up myself if it has seemed that way from my posting, I have no intention to come across as obnoxious, if I have, then I apologise.

Peace

 

[StopS]

Uffffff!!! Are you guys seriously arguing with someone like StopS whose comments are mostly wayward assertions?

Do not waste your precious time if you have any other things to do. He will persistently make sooooo many wayward assertions (He is an expert on this) that it will mostly waste your time. This guy is an Islam haters who are collecting information to distort them and make Youtube videos to mock Islam. He is known for attacking Islam and Muslims through his videos and also his comments. Just check Youtube and other Islamic forums.

Do you have proof for a single one of your preposterous claims?

 

[StopS]

Hi,

Sorry if I have seemed unfair to you. I have been met with such hate and culling of my posts that I can't have a civilised discussion here. You raise some interesting points, but I can't answer as my views are deleted or modified. It seems I am too straight and honest. Sorry.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings StopS,

The posts I deleted were those which were not pertaining to the discussion, and were in response to another member whose posts were also removed. I have not removed any of your replies to sister Ghareebah.

 

[StopS]

Greetings StopS,

The posts I deleted were those which were not pertaining to the discussion, and were in response to another member whose posts were also removed. I have not removed any of your replies to sister Ghareebah.

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds a lot better now.