Evolution and Islam are mutually exclusive

[Cpt.America]

^ Is this a muslim argument against free will? Allah determines all so we have no real free will?

Muslim belief is that Allah determines all, but we are allowed free will.

This means that if I choose to do something Allah allows me the power to go through with whatever actions I choose even if they may be actions that are contrary to what is pleasing to Him.
So if I choose to steal or murder, Allah allows me to do so. But if Allah had not allowed me to do so, then no, it would have been impossible for me to go through an action of my choosing.

It is the Muslims belief that this is the test that is life (after first recognizing the existence of a Perfect and Merciful Creator):

With the free will and power that Allah has allowed me, will I choose to align my will with that which is pleasing to Him, out of my own independent choice.
Or will I choose to follow my baser desires.

On the day of Judgement we will be made answerable for our crimes we committed on this earth, and how we used our power of free will, and how we handled the responsibilities we were given.

 

[Serinity]

Basically, everything is willed and decreed by Allah SWT, and Allah SWT willed whatever we will. Allah SWT gives us the choice to either accept or deny, etc.

we aren't compelled by Allah SWT to do anything.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Ok, but this..

Cause the only One who determines and decides is Allah SWT, not chance, ever.

does seem to conflict with this...

we aren't compelled by Allah SWT to do anything.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

As a believer Serenity's post made sense to me..

If I choose to walk down Market St or High St, I will still get to Tesco, my final destination. Whether I choose to do things my way for a few years on this Earth, or I strive to do as Allah commands, I will at some point stand before God, this destination is not left to chance.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[Serinity]

Ok, but this..does seem to conflict with this...

but it doesn't. Allah SWT granted you free will, He SWT willed before hand for you to have freewill. Your choice He SWT willed, etc. essentially everything is created by Allah SWT. Allah SWT even says in the Quran that whosoever wills a way to their Lord, let him have his way, whosoever wills disbelief, then that is what he chooses. Both The Qur'an and Real Life confirms this. Allah SWT is All-knowing, so He SWT already knows what you'll do, so He SWT wills, creates and decrees whatever you do. Where you find yourself when you die - that is where you'll find what Allah SWT has decreed for you. With Allah SWT's infinite knowledge and wisdom He SWT grants you free will, but whatever you will, Allah SWT willed. We are all subject to Allah SWT's will, we can not will unless Allah SWT wills. this does not contradict free will. Bear in mind Allah SWT is all-knowing. It isn't wise to dwelve too much into Destiny. Just know that whatever happens Allah SWT willed, and that you have free will. Allah SWT won't do the least of injustice.

Allah SWT lets stuff to happen, wills it, but He SWT never forces us to do stuff, that'd violate free will, but Allah SWT doesn't force us. He SWT simply willed what we will.

 

[~ Sabr ~]

With Allah SWT's infinite knowledge and wisdom He SWT grants you free will, but whatever you will, Allah SWT willed. We are all subject to Allah SWT's will, we can not will unless Allah SWT wills. this does not contradict free will

:ermm: Ouch....my head :hiding:

 

[Serinity]

:ermm: Ouch....my head :hiding:

Well, it makes sense to me.

We are all subject to Allah SWT's will, and Allah SWT Himself granted us free will. Yet we can not move a finger unless Allah SWT willed it.

Allah SWT willed us to have free will, get it? So whatever we will, Allah SWT willed, cuz He SWT willed us to have free will.

This is too complex and we can never understand the power of Allah SWT totally.

A) We have free will.
B) our will is subject to Allah SWT's will. Our free will is subject to Allah SWT's will, but He SWT never forces us.

 

[Serinity]

Muslim belief is that Allah determines all, but we are allowed free will.

This means that if I choose to do something Allah allows me the power to go through with whatever actions I choose even if they may be actions that are contrary to what is pleasing to Him.
So if I choose to steal or murder, Allah allows me to do so. But if Allah had not allowed me to do so, then no, it would have been impossible for me to go through an action of my choosing.

It is the Muslims belief that this is the test that is life (after first recognizing the existence of a Perfect and Merciful Creator):

With the free will and power that Allah has allowed me, will I choose to align my will with that which is pleasing to Him, out of my own independent choice.
Or will I choose to follow my baser desires.

On the day of Judgement we will be made answerable for our crimes we committed on this earth, and how we used our power of free will, and how we handled the responsibilities we were given.

This bro describes it nicely.

Allah SWT wills doesn't mean Allah SWT forces. Allah SWT lets it happen, and He SWT is in full control of it, but He SWT doesn't force. As that goes against free will.

May Allah SWT forgive me if I said wrong. Ameen. And Allah SWT knows best.

 

[Serinity]

I believe that the creation of man from clay mentioned in the Quran is symbolic, to refer to us a "nothing special" and to describe the elements of which we're made

Any daleel? Or are you speaking without knowledge? I've seen no evidence saying such. All you say is "in my opinion" "i think" etc. etc. Bring proof from scholars, otherwise I won't take your word for it.

Prophet Adam AS was created from altered mud, which mostly contain water, etc. And no it isn't symbolic. Bring proof if you are truthful.

I warn you not to speak of your own opinions regarding Islam. Gain knowledge and speak, don't speak of that which you've no knowledge about. you can ask questions, sure. But to speak without daleel from Quran, isn't going to get you far.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Curious side question: How does one recognize a legitimate Islamic Scholar, as opposed to somebody who just thinks they are one or are pretending to be one?

 

[Cpt.America]

Curious side question: How does one recognize a legitimate Islamic Scholar, as opposed to somebody who just thinks they are one or are pretending to be one?

First and foremost you look at their manners.
Even if the content of the knowledge is legitimate, if the scholar in question is not living a righteous lifestyle and not treating others with good manners, than that is a person (scholar or otherwise) who is distant from Allah. If a man is insulting, noninclusive, self centered, egotistic, and inflammatory, he may be in possession of a wealth of knowledge (as was Iblees (Satan)) but he is certainly not in the tradition of any of the Prophets (who were exemplary in their manners.)

Secondly you look to the content of their rhetoric.
If the speakers words go against some fundamental beliefs, like the Oneness of Allah, the finality of the message of and the finality of the prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, whether the speakers statements contradict examples of clear cut indisputable halal and haram (such as if they are stating usury, homosexuality, premarital sex, etc.) are allowed, and whether they are inviting their listeners to turn to any intermediary (such as themselves, some deceased person, talismans and amulets, 'Saints') as a source of holy intercession instead of leading the follower to turn directly to God alone. Basically is the scholar compromising the religion to appease any person or gain popularity? And also is the speaker seeking to form a cult of personality?

And you you must look to the credentials that said scholar provides of course.
Where did they study and under whom did they study.
Islam has a strong scholarly tradition wherein a persons scholarship can be verified and traced through a lineage of scholars to provide the veracity of the speakers qualifications.

 

[Serinity]

First and foremost you look at their manners.
Even if the content of the knowledge is legitimate, if the scholar in question is not living a righteous lifestyle and not treating others with good manners, than that is a person (scholar or otherwise) who is distant from Allah. If a man is insulting, noninclusive, self centered, egotistic, and inflammatory, he may be in possession of a wealth of knowledge (as was Iblees (Satan)) but he is certainly not in the tradition of any of the Prophets (who were exemplary in their manners.)

Secondly you look to the content of their rhetoric.
If the speakers words go against some fundamental beliefs, like the Oneness of Allah, the finality of the message of and the finality of the prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, whether the speakers statements contradict examples of clear cut indisputable halal and haram (such as if they are stating usury, homosexuality, premarital sex, etc.) are allowed, and whether they are inviting their listeners to turn to any intermediary (such as themselves, some deceased person, talismans and amulets, 'Saints') as a source of holy intercession instead of leading the follower to turn directly to God alone. Basically is the scholar compromising the religion to appease any person or gain popularity? And also is the speaker seeking to form a cult of personality?

And you you must look to the credentials that said scholar provides of course.
Where did they study and under whom did they study.
Islam has a strong scholarly tradition wherein a persons scholarship can be verified and traced through a lineage of scholars to provide the veracity of the speakers qualifications.

So basically those who have ill manners, and speak rudely, are to be avoided. And those who speak contrary to the Quran.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson; and I hope you are well,

Originally posted by Eric H
I think the prophets of two - three thousand years ago had a dilemma, should they offer a spiritual message or a message of science? Imagine a prophet saying to a group of scholars at the time, what you see is an illusion, we are not stood still in this place, rather we are hurtling through space at 67,000 mph on a giant ball, that is spinning round like a top, at a 1,000 miles mph.

Originally posted by czgibson
I think it would be extraordinary, and rather a convincing example of knowledge being transmitted by supernatural means if prophets had announced facts like these before the invention of the telescope.

Even if a prophet from 3,000 - 4,000 ago had said, we are hurtling through space at 67,000 mph on a giant ball, that is spinning round like a top, at a 1,000 miles mph. Why would people believe him? They had no telescopes, and they had a crude understanding of zero in mathematics. We had to wait until Isaac Newton and G.W. Leibniz to tackle division by zero.

I am not sure what benefit people might gain 3,000 years ago; knowing the Earth was round. Probably every advance in man's understanding; leaves us with a moral dilemma, we can generally adapt anything for both a good or evil use.

Instead, they just made things up and made false statements about the natural world, in amongst whatever moral or theological teachings they wanted to deliver.

And what service did they do humanity by making things up? For centuries, ordinary people could be persecuted and sometimes even executed for questioning some of the falsehoods contained in the Bible. It would have been better for everybody if the prophets hadn't bothered to include them.

All the law of God hangs and depends on loving God and our neighbour, we are asked to love and pray for our enemies too. So when Mr Bush said God Bless America, and he went off to bomb Afghanistan and Iraq, it seems he had his own agenda and not that of God. Clearly everyone in Afghanistan and Iraq is a part of God's creation, Mr Bush seems to have overlooked the greatest commandments.

Fear of being laughed out of town didn't stop St. John the Divine from producing the hallucinogenic nightmare of nonsense that is the book of Revelation, did it?

The fear of God is the start of wisdom, If Mr Bush truly feared God, he might have taken the greatest commandments more seriously.

Wouldn't it have been amazing if the Bible contained more actual scientific knowledge, though, instead of obviously false statements that insult the intelligence of the reader?

I would suggest that scientific knowledge is almost meaningless, unless we have the morality to use it for the good of mankind. We allow twenty thousand children to starve to death needlessly every day, there is enough food to go round. It seems many countries spend about twice as much on their military, as they do on medicine.

Peace

The elusive peace.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[Bhabha]

Another reason of why "evolution" is stupid.... because at the end of the evolutionary stick is always a WHITE MAN, it is never a black man, it is never an arab man, it is never a hispanic man, it is always a WHITE GUY and let's not forget.. it is always a man.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Another reason of why "evolution" is stupid.... because at the end of the evolutionary stick is always a WHITE MAN, it is never a black man, it is never an arab man, it is never a hispanic man, it is always a WHITE GUY and let's not forget.. it is always a man.

The end of evolution is a rabbit, a cheetah, a turtle, a whale, and yes, a man. The end of evolution is what we have today, and it isn't the final ending, as there isn't one until all life on earth is gone.

Oh and check out this ancient quirky fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

A fish with arms... interesting marker in evolution from fish to amphibian.

 

[Cpt.America]

The end of evolution is a rabbit, a cheetah, a turtle, a whale, and yes, a man. The end of evolution is what we have today, and it isn't the final ending, as there isn't one until all life on earth is gone.

Oh and check out this ancient quirky fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

A fish with arms... interesting marker in evolution from fish to amphibian.

Nah bruh.
The matter of note about Tiktaalik wasn't that it had 'arms' per se as other fish at the time and prior had similar systems to prop themselves up on land for some time.
Tiktaalik is given importance because of its rudimentary elbow joints and finger like projections. They figured the weight bearing elements showed it moved on land.

"Your Inner Fish" by Niel Shubins a good book on the subject.

All the same of gradualism were in reality a thing we wouldn't really have to hunt to find rare transitional fossils like this.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

Another reason of why "evolution" is stupid.... because at the end of the evolutionary stick is always a WHITE MAN, it is never a black man, it is never an arab man, it is never a hispanic man, it is always a WHITE GUY and let's not forget.. it is always a man.

What are you talking about? Black men are superior to white men in nearly every physical attribute. Generally speaking they're bigger, stronger, faster and are more suited to living in warm climates due to the melatonin in their skin so your statement could not be more wrong.

White people only came about because we travelled from the African plains to America and Europe and over time we did not need black skin any more because it was not as hot so our skin became lighter. There are of course other environmental factors at play such as dietary needs and vitamin D deficiency.

We're still evolving, even as we speak. Ever wondered what your wisdom teeth are for? Considering they just grow sideways in 95% of people and cause nothing but pain? Thousands of years ago when we ate roots and leaves we'd use these teeth to grind them up. Now we no longer use them so they no longer grow properly, eventually our bodies will just evolve to stop growing them all together.

What about your coccyx (tailbone)? Another completely useless non functioning body part, yet it would have certainly served us well when we were swinging around in trees, like a monkey. Since we no longer swing around in trees we've no need for a tail so the coccyx is the last remanence of our tails.

The appendix? I'll let you research this one. Hint hint, get it removed and nothing about your health or ability to digest food changes.

We evolved and are still evolving, stop being so ignorant.

P.S Adding to my point that beautifully illustrates evolution. The Barbary Macaque monkey has almost no tail, why? Because it lives in mountainous regions where, who would have guessed it, there are barely any more trees for it to swing around in and thus no longer needs a tail.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Even if a prophet from 3,000 - 4,000 ago had said, we are hurtling through space at 67,000 mph on a giant ball, that is spinning round like a top, at a 1,000 miles mph. Why would people believe him?

If a prophet had said these things two thousand years ago, it would make no difference whether people believed them or not - the important point is that it would have been true information acquired without a telescope, which would lend support to the view that prophets are able to obtain information through supernatural means.

I am not sure what benefit people might gain 3,000 years ago; knowing the Earth was round.

Greek astronomers established that the Earth is round in the 3rd century BC. It's an impressive advance in human knowledge. Do you not see this as a good thing?

I broadly agree with the sentiment of the remainder of your post, but I cannot see how it is relevant to anything I wrote.

Peace

 

[crimsontide06]

God created everything, including evolution and how it works....


/thread

 

[EgyptPrincess]

God created everything, including evolution and how it works....


/thread

Unfortunately due to the lack of education a lot of Muslims are receiving many have issues understanding this topic and Atheists use evolution as a tool to argue against god which is why Muslims tend to rule it out all together despite it being so rich with evidence. We must also remember that Allah swt did not reveal everything about the world and left us with things to work out by ourselves. For example there is absolutely no mention of electromagnetism in the Quran or the Hadiths but it exists...

The world would be incredibly boring if Allah swt gave us all the answers.