Evolution in trees?

[Azy]

Seems odd that the same people who see that the directed evolution of apples to produce a crop plant with traits favourable to humans could not have happened without the "intelligent" guidance of humans can not accept intelligent guidence for all things called evolution.

Fixed

 

[Woodrow]

Fixed

Thank You, that is better wording

 

[alcurad]

^couldn't it be argued that humans as such are just a part of 'evolution' in general, not outside of it?
just as the all predators nowadays don't wipe out the herbivores entirely, or more clearly as Ants cultivate some vegetables-or was it fungi?-the mechanisms that made that possible could also be applied with a bit more tweaking to apples and humans?

^but of course that doesn't affect Woodrow's post at all: "Seems odd that the same people who see that evolution of apples could not have happened without the "intelligent" guidance of humans can not accept intelligent guidance for all things called evolution."
I was just posting a thought as it came,,

 

[barrio79]

^couldn't it be argued that humans as such are just a part of 'evolution' in general, not outside of it?
just as the all predators nowadays don't wipe out the herbivores entirely, or more clearly as Ants cultivate some vegetables-or was it fungi?-the mechanisms that made that possible could also be applied with a bit more tweaking to apples and humans?

^but of course that doesn't affect Woodrow's post at all: "Seems odd that the same people who see that evolution of apples could not have happened without the "intelligent" guidance of humans can not accept intelligent guidance for all things called evolution."
I was just posting a thought as it came,,

Evolution features a lot on cable television , you can get some answers from watching there

 

[alcurad]

^couldn't it be argued that humans as such are just a part of 'evolution' in general, not outside of it?
just as the all predators nowadays don't wipe out the herbivores entirely, or more clearly as Ants cultivate some vegetables-or was it fungi?-the mechanisms that made that possible could also be applied with a bit more tweaking to apples and humans?

^but of course that doesn't affect Woodrow's post at all: "Seems odd that the same people who see that evolution of apples could not have happened without the "intelligent" guidance of humans can not accept intelligent guidance for all things called evolution."
I was just posting a thought as it came,,

 

[Muhaba]

Fixed

What about all the other plants that are favorable to humans? Did they all evolve by themselves or was intelligent guidance behind them as well?

 

[Azy]

Some were cultivated by men, like the apples, and some evolved independently of intelligent guidance.

 

[Woodrow]

Some were cultivated by men, like the apples, and some evolved independently of intelligent guidance.

Oh so a plant such as corn (maize) which can not grow without human cultivation (No wild form of maize has been found) which is the product of planned growth. Planning by primitive people who had no concept of biology.

If we can accept that the food crops are the result of inellibent planning by human, why can we not accept that all growth is the result of intelligent guidence. It is esy to see that many plants would not exist today if it was not for the intellegent guidance of humans. Why do some people assume that all plants could exist if it was not for the intelligent guidence of a Supreme Being?

Can any living organism fauna or flora develop without intelligent guidence having directed it?

 

[Woodrow]

What about all the other plants that are favorable to humans? Did they all evolve by themselves or was intelligent guidance behind them as well?

I can not think of a single food crop that has not been altered by intelligent guidance. Some of our food crops can not even be found in the wild. Maize is the best example. There has not been a wild maize plant found and maize is the only grain plant that grows a cob. No other known plant has a cob. Yet genetically the cob prevents corn from growing wild as the kernels can not plant or disperse themselves because of the cob. The cob prevents the plant from procreating itself by any natural means.

If you like I can go into a very long essay about pollination in corn(maize) That becames super complex while on the surface it look like simple wind pollination.

 

[Azy]

If we can accept that the food crops are the result of inellibent planning by human, why can we not accept that all growth is the result of intelligent guidence.

Because they're completely different things and one doesn't even remotely follow on logically from the other?

It's similar to your apple example and to animals like mules which are mostly born infertile. It might be reasonable to say that a sustainable population of these species would not currently exist without human help but that's not the same as saying they could never have existed.

I can not think of a single food crop that has not been altered by intelligent guidance.

It is virtually guaranteed that food crops will be altered by human interference, even if that boils down to something as simple as a pre-agricultural human picking the juiciest looking fruit and dropping the cores in a field. However, the interference needn't be human or even intelligent. When a bird/insect/animal feeds on a plant and helps spread seed/pollen it is promoting the growth and spread of plants it finds more attractive.

 

[Woodrow]

Because they're completely different things and one doesn't even remotely follow on logically from the other?

It's similar to your apple example and to animals like mules which are mostly born infertile. It might be reasonable to say that a sustainable population of these species would not currently exist without human help but that's not the same as saying they could never have existed.
It is virtually guaranteed that food crops will be altered by human interference, even if that boils down to something as simple as a pre-agricultural human picking the juiciest looking fruit and dropping the cores in a field. However, the interference needn't be human or even intelligent. When a bird/insect/animal feeds on a plant and helps spread seed/pollen it is promoting the growth and spread of plants it finds more attractive.

I can agree with that. The only difference I have is I can not comprehend how it could or would occur without intelligent planning.

 

[Yanal]

I asked an atheist at another forum and he replied this answer which I think can be considered as a logical reply :

Yanal,why can't muslims leave us atheist alone? If we are wrong we will dwell in our own wrong doing and because us atheist believe in no god we do not fear giving answers and do not have rules to abide on,so why cant everyone,especially muslims leave us alone? If Muslims are right we will see in a later time.

What are all your views on this?

 

[Yanal]

I asked an atheist at another forum and he replied this answer which I think can be considered as a logical reply :

Yanal,why can't muslims leave us atheist alone? If we are wrong we will dwell in our own wrong doing and because us atheist believe in no god we do not fear giving answers and do not have rules to abide on,so why cant everyone,especially muslims leave us alone? If Muslims are right we will see in a later time.

What are all your views on this?

 

[Woodrow]

I asked an atheist at another forum and he replied this answer which I think can be considered as a logical reply :

Yanal,why can't muslims leave us atheist alone? If we are wrong we will dwell in our own wrong doing and because us atheist believe in no god we do not fear giving answers and do not have rules to abide on,so why cant everyone,especially muslims leave us alone? If Muslims are right we will see in a later time.

What are all your views on this?

I would answer him with:

My dear fellow traveller on this Earth. I did not think an Atheist and a Theist would ever find a point of agreement.
but, I concede I was wrong, I agree with you fully on all points.

 

[Yanal]

Interesting reply..I would also agree with him. He is quite into researching religions.. insha'Allah he will find his way to the path of light which Islam brings. Any other views?

 

[Muhaba]

how can we leave them alone? If there were a pit of fire on a path and someone was going that way, wouldn't you warn them about it? What kind of person would you be if you didn't warn someone about the dangers lying ahead?

anyway, this has to be done with wisdom so we should all ask Allah to give us knowledge and wisdom and help us do dawah properly.

 

[Woodrow]

how can we leave them alone? If there were a pit of fire on a path and someone was going that way, wouldn't you warn them about it? What kind of person would you be if you didn't warn someone about the dangers lying ahead?

anyway, this has to be done with wisdom so we should all ask Allah to give us knowledge and wisdom and help us do dawah properly.

Warn yes. But warn with kindness and not try to change with a sledge hammer. After being warned, do not pester or try to change them. Let them know you are available, but let them make their own choice.

 

[Muhaba]

^yes, i agree

 

[Ramadhan]

Warn yes. But warn with kindness and not try to change with a sledge hammer. After being warned, do not pester or try to change them. Let them know you are available, but let them make their own choice.

I think this is one of the best ways of dakwah.
And I can see that this is how brother Woodrow reverted to Islam, and countless others I assume, so it's quite successful.