Exodus 31:15

[Umar001]

Ok, so if I understand what you mean, according to that law, if all the judges decide to put the person to death, because it is obvious he commited the offence, the person would not be put to death?

 

[rav]

Ok, so if I understand what you mean, according to that law, if all the judges decide to put the person to death, because it is obvious he commited the offence, the person would not be put to death?

Yes, precisely that. It does not mean he is free to go, or he is “innocent”. He is just not executed for his crime. It may seem odd to you, maybe from your Islamic influences, but it is actually seen as brilliant to me. Everyone must have a defender. Someone who argues on behalf of their case, who is also wise (i.e. a judge). No case is so “obvious” because remember what we are arguing about when convicting someone and putting him to death under Jewish law. We might be arguing over if he properly responded that he knew what he was doing to the two witnesses who warned him while he was in the act of committing the crime. We might be arguing if he heard their warning that he would be subject to the death penalty. We might argue over many little nitty-gritty details. Nothing was so “obvious” in the case of the details needed to execute someone. If a court was so fast as to sentence someone to death with no debate, or no protector for the accused, than the death penalty was being used to hastily. Remember, more than one man executed in 7 years was considered a “destructive court”.

 

[tomtomsmom]

Forgive me for being ignorant but is the OT the holy book for the jewish religion or is it another one?

 

[barney]

So in a Nutshell.

Christians CAN pick and choose which bits of Gods word they follow, only the commandments seem to really matter, all the rest of the work can be filtered out to ignore things. Although God has clearly stated it is his word, mankind has advanced beyond the primitive people & prophets who beleived they were in touch with God said he commanded, and the nonsensical instructions dont apply anymore.

However, If jewish law was to be correctly implemented, then two people in Tel Aviv telling the Kwik-E-Mart owner to shut down his shop or die, would be justified in killing him. A Christian can work from dawn till dusk, cos the OT dosnt apply to them.

An easy way out for christians here, remove your OT, it's not applicable (and frankly so full of hard to wriggle out of stuff as to be a embarrassment).
The problem then is of course that Jesus endorsed the OT, and the beleif is that the OT endorses and in fact is the whole basis for Jesus. (unless he was actually just a nice ghandi type bloke, a political actavist, and after his death everyone got a bit carried away as they tended to do in those days. ("Hey! This guy did miracles! My best freinds aunt heard that he did!")

To me, you either accept the Bible at face value and all of it, the stoning, the beating, the murder, the genocide, the plagues, the misogeny, the intolerance, the jelousy, the animal sacrifices, the human sacrifices all of that good old 3000 year old,mankind-diddnt-know-better stuff as Gods words, actions and teachings.

Or you sack the whole thing and start again. theres far far too much in there to try and apologise for in todays world, where we have rational brains and superstition is a quaint joke.
I chose Exodus, i could have opened the page at any chaper and found the same things.

Nowadays most Christians ride a two track path. They have a personal relationship with a loving and merciful God,(but non-acceptance still leads to merciful pits of fiery hell), made flesh in Jesus Christ and accept Jesus-God as a wrathful, city massacering, entity that seemed to not just change his mind but have massive mood swings.
Meh...pick the bones outta that!

 

[Umar001]

Yes, precisely that. It does not mean he is free to go, or he is “innocent”. He is just not executed for his crime. It may seem odd to you, maybe from your Islamic influences, but it is actually seen as brilliant to me. Everyone must have a defender. Someone who argues on behalf of their case, who is also wise (i.e. a judge). No case is so “obvious” because remember what we are arguing about when convicting someone and putting him to death under Jewish law. We might be arguing over if he properly responded that he knew what he was doing to the two witnesses who warned him while he was in the act of committing the crime. We might be arguing if he heard their warning that he would be subject to the death penalty. We might argue over many little nitty-gritty details. Nothing was so “obvious” in the case of the details needed to execute someone. If a court was so fast as to sentence someone to death with no debate, or no protector for the accused, than the death penalty was being used to hastily. Remember, more than one man executed in 7 years was considered a “destructive court”.

It's one thing to debate and have a trail and so forth which ofcourse is neccesary I belive that as a Muslim and even before I believed in Islam, but if there's an open killer, massacres loads of people infront of everyone, his crime is so obvious that no judge would plead for the guy's innocence, this guy aint gonna be killed because noone said 'Maybe he was innocent'.

What would have happend to Hitler?

I don't think you are totally right though barney, I mean, to a Christian the Holy Spirit is their teacher, so in reality there is no way to discuss since the Holy Spirit might be teaching them how to understand their scripture.

 

[Keltoi]

So in a Nutshell.

Christians CAN pick and choose which bits of Gods word they follow, only the commandments seem to really matter, all the rest of the work can be filtered out to ignore things. Although God has clearly stated it is his word, mankind has advanced beyond the primitive people & prophets who beleived they were in touch with God said he commanded, and the nonsensical instructions dont apply anymore.

However, If jewish law was to be correctly implemented, then two people in Tel Aviv telling the Kwik-E-Mart owner to shut down his shop or die, would be justified in killing him. A Christian can work from dawn till dusk, cos the OT dosnt apply to them.

An easy way out for christians here, remove your OT, it's not applicable (and frankly so full of hard to wriggle out of stuff as to be a embarrassment).
The problem then is of course that Jesus endorsed the OT, and the beleif is that the OT endorses and in fact is the whole basis for Jesus. (unless he was actually just a nice ghandi type bloke, a political actavist, and after his death everyone got a bit carried away as they tended to do in those days. ("Hey! This guy did miracles! My best freinds aunt heard that he did!")

To me, you either accept the Bible at face value and all of it, the stoning, the beating, the murder, the genocide, the plagues, the misogeny, the intolerance, the jelousy, the animal sacrifices, the human sacrifices all of that good old 3000 year old,mankind-diddnt-know-better stuff as Gods words, actions and teachings.

Or you sack the whole thing and start again. theres far far too much in there to try and apologise for in todays world, where we have rational brains and superstition is a quaint joke.
I chose Exodus, i could have opened the page at any chaper and found the same things.

Nowadays most Christians ride a two track path. They have a personal relationship with a loving and merciful God,(but non-acceptance still leads to merciful pits of fiery hell), made flesh in Jesus Christ and accept Jesus-God as a wrathful, city massacering, entity that seemed to not just change his mind but have massive mood swings.
Meh...pick the bones outta that!

The OT is important to Christians in the context of the NT. Christians aren't "picking and choosing" which of God's laws to follow, they are following the Law and Word of Christ. I would agree that there seems to be a major difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT, at least in the realm of law and punishment. Most of these issues relate to God's relationship with the Jewish people, so perhaps a Jewish member might shed light on your points about God's wrath.

 

[Yanal]

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Hi, If I was to convert to christianity, should I pop over PC World on Sunday with a machinegun and carry out the lords word.

Or is the word "work" or "Sabbath" out of context here?

Asalam alkum barney i have a question what is Exodus 31:15 mean and also when do we work for 6days and one day we don't ?

 

[barney]

I would agree that there seems to be a major difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT, at least in the realm of law and punishment. .

Same God, do you reckon? Or Christianity Piggybacking the Jewish God.
If theres one thing upcoming religions have learned, If youve no history to back it up, your religion is doomed.
the Idea that "It's the same God you guys worship! You arnt losing your faith...your seeing the light!" is a slippier sell than "I've a great new God here! Scrap the old un....Here's what you have to do!"

 

[Keltoi]

Same God, do you reckon? Or Christianity Piggybacking the Jewish God.
If theres one thing upcoming religions have learned, If youve no history to back it up, your religion is doomed.
the Idea that "It's the same God you guys worship! You arnt losing your faith...your seeing the light!" is a slippier sell than "I've a great new God here! Scrap the old un....Here's what you have to do!"

Well, the early Christians were Jews and were basing their faith off OT prophecy and the divinity of Christ. Granted, they were considered "heretical" by the rest of the Jewish population, but I don't think they would consider themselves to be worshipping a different God than the God of the Jews. I don't either. I understand your perspective as an agnostic, but your reasoning isn't going to be the same as mine, obviously.

 

[barney]

Well, the early Christians were Jews and were basing their faith off OT prophecy and the divinity of Christ. Granted, they were considered "heretical" by the rest of the Jewish population, but I don't think they would consider themselves to be worshipping a different God than the God of the Jews. I don't either. I understand your perspective as an agnostic, but your reasoning isn't going to be the same as mine, obviously.

Hey no worries!

 

[rav]

However, If jewish law was to be correctly implemented, then two people in Tel Aviv telling the Kwik-E-Mart owner to shut down his shop or die, would be justified in killing him. A Christian can work from dawn till dusk, cos the OT dosnt apply to them.

Are you serious? Did you even read my post?

According to Jewish law they are not justified in killing them, because they must be taken to court during a time when an active Sanhedrin is running (which it is not). Another Sanhedrin will not appear until the Messiah comes, when the whole world will be enlightened, so your moral objections will be non-existent as well. Did you forget the part about the Sanhedrin that executed more than one person in seven years was called “destructive”? Much more humane than your secular American thought of executing hundreds upon hundreds (some of whom are innocent).

To me, you either accept the Bible at face value and all of it, the stoning, the beating, the murder, the genocide, the plagues, the misogeny, the intolerance, the jelousy, the animal sacrifices, the human sacrifices all of that good old 3000 year old,mankind-diddnt-know-better stuff as Gods words, actions and teachings.

Human sacrifices?!? I really began laughing when I read that. You should possibly read the Hebrew Bible, along with the Talmud before you reveal such ignorance. Yes something’s that seem unattractive to the secular humanist are in the Tanakh, but your void of understanding about many of the topics. A perfect example would be equating “slavery” in the Hebrew Bible is not like the non-Jewish worlds capture of blacks and enslaving them. A slave would be freed after seven years and a ruler of a household would have to feed his “slave” before himself etc. They are of course no longer in practice nor is it “commanded” it was merely tolerated at that time and regulations were set, many which reformed them.

Until you read the Hebrew Bible along with texts like the Midrash and Talmud your observations about one of the texts are really not in the scope of Jewish law or thought.

 

[barney]

Yeah, so Correct Jewish law isnt running at the moment, I said that. OK i was being a bit flippant, the guy would be warned , taken to court, tried and found guilty.(yup...he worked on sunday).....then killed.

Human Sacrifice. Issac.
God wanted Abraham to Sacrifice his son. He changed his mind at the last second, he was checking Abrahams faith..In some weird twisted way....but the idea that he demanded human sacrifice was acceptable to Abraham. Anyway, the Goat got slaughetred instead, because if you slit up a animal and spalsh its blood about and paint blood all over the shop, then for some reason...this totally non-pagan god is really chuffed with that.He was plaesed with the aroma apparently.

If its good enough for the Aztecs and their various sacrifical loving deiteys, its good enough for Judism.

Basically, if you can show me that God diddnt intend sacrifice to be part of his holy word, i'd be surprised. it would need the original texts to say "Take Your son up to the top of the mountain and chill out for a bit, throw some shapes and feed the goats...whatever you do...DONT tie him to a alter and prepare to stab him, then slash up the nearest hoofed thing you see"

 

[rav]

Human Sacrifice. Issac.
God wanted Abraham to Sacrifice his son. He changed his mind at the last second, he was checking Abrahams faith

Nope. Have you ever read the Hebrew text?

22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that G-d tested Abraham, and He said to him, "Abraham," and he said, "Here I am."
22:2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."

The Hebrew text literally says "tested" and every Jewish text concludes that the sacrifice would never have happend. But I will give you one better. Find me where G-d asked Avraham to sacrifice Isaac! He did not say to him, “Slaughter him,” because the Holy One, blessed be He, did not wish him to slaughter him but to bring him up to the mountain, to prepare him for a burnt offering, and as soon as he brought him up [to the mountain], He said to him, “Take him down.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 56:8]

Find me where G-d says "sacrifice" Isaac...

Yeah, so Correct Jewish law isnt running at the moment,

Correct Jewish law, is the Halacha (Jewish law) that is being followed at the time. Since at this time their can be no Sanhedrin, the correct Jewish law is being followed and executing anyone, or even any trial to find someone guilty (which in the time of death penalty would be looked down upon if over one man was killed in seven years) would be against Jewish law.

 

[barney]

OK, Thanks for that, so Jewish law actually is different from what God commanded in Exodus. I.E the killing of sunday workers.(he dosnt mention anything in exodus about warnings to stop or anything, just that they should be killed.

Nice to know the Guys down at Wal-Mart are safe! (at the moment..Dun! Dun! Dun! (dramatic music))

As to the Sacrifices, thats fine, Abe wasnt told to stab him, just to burn him to death. I'm sure Issac was reassured.

Let me just say, I know Jews to be reasonable people who dont go about slaughtering their kids on alters and mowing down sunday morning postmen. my point is that thank the creating force that you guys got over the scripture a few thousand years ago and decided to go against it.

Animal sacrifices are still ethically abhorant to me, and I cant see why God wants 'em. The idea of a God who ordered (even as a.... Test....) the burning of a Kid, is also abhorant.

Wacky stuff indeed.

Regards

 

[rav]

Other than not getting the point, distorting major points, misunderstanding the philosophical position of the changing nature of halacha and not being able to differentiate between the fact that Jewish believe the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday, your post was fine.

 

[north_malaysian]

Other than not getting the point, distorting major points, misunderstanding the philosophical position of the changing nature of halacha and not being able to differentiate between the fact that Jewish believe the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday, your post was fine.

What do the observant Jews think about the Jews that dont observe Sabbath?

 

[barney]

ROFL! Cheers! (My O.P was directed at Christians BTW)

It's however true that Philosophical positions in religion carry no weight in comparison to Gods Instructions.
God instructed us to Kill sabbath workers, Those that shave their beards, Stone unbeleivers to death etc etc....and the Christians and Jews just wont obay his commands! They debate around it and interprete it as is their want. But surely when God says "jump" he means jump, not do the hokey cokey & spin around.
He must be sat there thinking "Sheesh! I give a simple instruction and they utterly ignore it!"

Anyway, keep up the moderate stuff, it's all good.

 

[glo]

Now let us get to the fundamentals. I will outline a few things which are essential to know about the Sabbath.

Rav,

The background information to the Sabbath laws is really interesting.
Can you tell me how the Sabbath laws are actually implemented by modern-day Jews?
What would be classed as 'working on the Sabbath'? Is it allowed to carry out certain work within your own home?
How do you personally apply the Sabbath laws?

Do orthodox Jews take a stricter view than non-orthodox Jews?

I love to know how other people live, what they believe and how they put their faith into practice. Unfortunately I find that posters are reluctant to share their own thoughts and beliefs for fear of being shouted down or ridiculed by other posters ... :X
I hope people will just listen to your views, without value judgement!

Oh, what we could learn from each other, if we only shut up and listened!

Peace

 

[tomtomsmom]

I must say, I am disappointed. I asked a very simple question that got overlooked so members could start bickering. I should have known better......

 

[Umar001]

ROFL! Cheers! (My O.P was directed at Christians BTW)

It's however true that Philosophical positions in religion carry no weight in comparison to Gods Instructions.
God instructed us to Kill sabbath workers, Those that shave their beards, Stone unbeleivers to death etc etc....and the Christians and Jews just wont obay his commands! They debate around it and interprete it as is their want. But surely when God says "jump" he means jump, not do the hokey cokey & spin around.
He must be sat there thinking "Sheesh! I give a simple instruction and they utterly ignore it!"

But according to some they are following the comandment, it depends on whether you believe the Oral Tradition which explains the rulings in the Law to be accurate and reliable. For the Jew it might be that he does not read the Torah without reading the explanations and the background which goes hand in hand, and for a Christian it might be that he might not read black and white as you since he believes that understanding of the scripture comes through prayer. We would have to look at how justified are such methods from the realms of scripture, i.e. do they have origins in scripture, like a Christian being guided by the Holy Spirit, if so how much should he be, and so forth. That's should be the discussion.

I must say, I am disappointed. I asked a very simple question that got overlooked so members could start bickering. I should have known better......

The Old Testament, contains Holy Books for Jews, The Books of Moses are the Law and theere are also books of the Prophets of Israel. Alongside with this some have the Oral Tradition which is claimed to go back to Moses.

On a different note, I still am wondering what would happen to a blatant killer like Hitler, who would deny his guilt, noone in my eyes. I find that so alien, really something to ponder over for me.