Faith vs Works-based religion

[Grace Seeker]

The bold part in the quote above makes me a bit confused, what kind of practices in a culture do you mean which could be associated with being a Muslim?

Oh, for instance I have friend who is a taxi driver in Tripoli, and he has told me horror stories of Saudi businessmen (for some reason all of his horror stories are about Saudi businessmen) who, when he picks them up at the airport, want him to find them young boys to spend several hours with in what can euphemistically be called untoward behavior. Now these men are all "Muslims", they are sure to celebrate Ramadan with their families, and will even make a show of buy a lamb for a poor family at the feast of the sacrifice, but they don't keep Islam. They drink, they don't attend to their prayers, they even engage in this illicit sexual encounters with boys they recruit to be prostitutes. Whether in their heart they really trust in Allah, I don't know. But their outward behavior does not express it.

I have another friend from Tehran with a completely different story. She lives what on the surface would be a considered by most to be truly moral life. And she practices all of the outward forms of Islam expected by her society, like dress, etc. And when she has to fill out forms she checks Islam as her religion. But she confesses to me, that she doesn't really believe any of it. She is in fact a secular humanists and nothing more. She doesn't know if there is a god (small "g"), doubts it, and doesn't care because as a scientist (she's a molecular biologist engaged in medical research) she just believes in what she can see and test for in her laboratory.

Now, I admit to judging the business, but my friend in Tehran, these are her own explanation of her religious beliefs to me. At first she said to me that she was Muslim, and then she said, not really because she doesn't really believe, it is just a part of her culture living where she does -- those are her words, not mine. And I suspect that both people would be adjugded as Muslims by the world at large, I don't think that given the information provided that we could say that either of them are truly followers of Islam. As you said, I think they have to considered more as non-believers, even if they do practice some vestiges of Muslim rituals in their lives; they don't do them as an act of faith, but more because they are expected aspects of the society in which they happen to live.

 

[Argamemnon]

^^ What you described is actually considered worse than disbelief according to Islam. Outwardly practising or pretending to be Muslim while not believing in their heart. Such people are called "munafiq" (religious hypocrite).

 

[Grace Seeker]

^^ What you described is actually considered worse than disbelief according to Islam. Outwardly practising or pretending to be Muslim while not believing in their heart. Someone like that is called Munafiq (religious hypocrite).

I learned a new word today; thank-you for the edification!

Yet I also find it interesting that rarely do you hear of a Muslim speaking against one who seems to fit this category of Munafiq. (Not that we in the Christian Church necessarily call out our religious hyprocrite either.) Is that because one doesn't want to risk judging what is in a person's heart -- after all none of us are perfect -- and feels the need to leave that to Allah to say? Or are there sometimes other reasons?

 

[Argamemnon]

I learned a new word today; thank-you for the edification!

Yet I also find it interesting that rarely do you hear of a Muslim speaking against one who seems to fit this category of Munafiq. (Not that we in the Christian Church necessarily call out our religious hyprocrite either.) Is that because one doesn't want to risk judging what is in a person's heart -- after all none of us are perfect -- and feels the need to leave that to Allah to say? Or are there sometimes other reasons?

Yes, I would assume that to be the main reason..

 

[Keltoi]

I learned a new word today; thank-you for the edification!

Yet I also find it interesting that rarely do you hear of a Muslim speaking against one who seems to fit this category of Munafiq. (Not that we in the Christian Church necessarily call out our religious hyprocrite either.) Is that because one doesn't want to risk judging what is in a person's heart -- after all none of us are perfect -- and feels the need to leave that to Allah to say? Or are there sometimes other reasons?

I'm not sure how you address this issue, but my pastor routinely gives warnings about this type of behavior. While he doesn't call out people by name, he does often make mention of this practice of being Christian in name alone. Perhaps that is all we can do without passing judgement on individuals.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Perhaps that is all we can do without passing judgement on individuals.

As a parent I love my children enough to not just correct their behavior but also their attitude. As a spouse it is important to me not just what my spouse does for, but what motivates her to do what she does for me -- is she doing it out obligation, love, or what exactly? As a brother I talk with my siblings about issues of the heart not just surface issues because we truly care for one another.

So, here is my question to Christian and Muslim alike... If this is how we relate to people we truly care about, but we won't deal with the heart issues, the motivation and attitude behind the actions of other individuals does that mean that no matter how much we want to present ourselves to the world as loving people, that we truly don't love others as much as we do ourselves and our own? And if that be the case, then maybe it is in fact our attitude, our motivation, and our heart that needs some work.

 

[Keltoi]

So, here is my question to Christian and Muslim alike... If this is how we relate to people we truly care about, but we won't deal with the heart issues, the motivation and attitude behind the actions of other individuals does that mean that no matter how much we want to present ourselves to the world as loving people, that we truly don't love others as much as we do ourselves and our own? And if that be the case, then maybe it is in fact our attitude, our motivation, and our heart that needs some work.

I understand your point, and perhaps a personal meeting between pastor/minister/priest and a church member who seems to be falling into hypocrisy would be helpful and even necessary. I know that my pastor often makes reference to the fact that he sees every member of the congregation as a member of his family, so your analogy about your own immediate family makes sense.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I understand your point, and perhaps a personal meeting between pastor/minister/priest and a church member who seems to be falling into hypocrisy would be helpful and even necessary. I know that my pastor often makes reference to the fact that he sees every member of the congregation as a member of his family, so your analogy about your own immediate family makes sense.

Why limit this to pastor correcting membership? Sense you and I are protestants who claim to believe in "the priesthood of all believers," maybe we should understand that part of the responsibility I have toward my brother/sister in Christ is to speak to their unethical behavior rather than ignore it, saying that it is between them and God. Would not those who follow Islam have some simiilar responsibility toward their brothers and sisters within the faith? Specifically, should not the Christian church stand up to groups like the skinheads, the KKK, and other hate groups, or those who promote hedonism as a basic value in society? And should not Muslims speak out against al-Qaida or the Taliban when they practice things that are not truly parts of Islam and then seek the cover of relgion to justify that which is actually condemned by both and the Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet?

 

[Keltoi]

Why limit this to pastor correcting membership? Sense you and I are protestants who claim to believe in "the priesthood of all believers," maybe we should understand that part of the responsibility I have toward my brother/sister in Christ is to speak to their unethical behavior rather than ignore it, saying that it is between them and God. Would not those who follow Islam have some simiilar responsibility toward their brothers and sisters within the faith? Specifically, should not the Christian church stand up to groups like the skinheads, the KKK, and other hate groups, or those who promote hedonism as a basic value in society? And should not Muslims speak out against al-Qaida or the Taliban when they practice things that are not truly parts of Islam and then seek the cover of relgion to justify that which is actually condemned by both and the Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet?

Yes in that context I agree. I was referring more to the Christian concept of "backsliding", which in most cases would not rise to the level of racism or hedonism.

That being said I agree full heartedly that it is the responsibility of Christians to speak out against those who pervert the meaning of our faith.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Keltoi, the sad thing is that it appears, as if one could judge the entire world based on our present conversation (which I know we cannot), that Christians are more worried about correcting their brothers and sisters who stray in the practice of their faith than Muslims are.

Where, my Muslim friends, is the Islamic response to these questions?

 

[Al-Zaara]

Is that a challenge, Grace? I find it unbelivably dramatic of you to state such as the above, which is why I take it as an provocation, to make us answers, no? That's only my understanding of that post. Or is it coming from the heart? If it is what you truly think, then I see it as presumption from your side, which doesn't fit the 'true' Christian image I've gotten over the years.

I shalth answer when my keyboard is working again, it took me minutes to just write this.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Is that a challenge, Grace? I find it unbelivably dramatic of you to state such as the above, which is why I take it as an provocation, to make us answers, no? That's only my understanding of that post. Or is it coming from the heart? If it is what you truly think, then I see it as presumption from your side, which doesn't fit the 'true' Christian image I've gotten over the years.

I shalth answer when my keyboard is working again, it took me minutes to just write this.

Probably a little bit of truth to both aspects of what you said.

Mostly, I would challenge Muslims to speak out against their own when they go astray. Now, I know that Imans do this in their sermons at the level that Keltoi was talking about. I have set in those mosques and heard those sermons myself. So, I don't mean this as a tirade against Islam. But it does concern me that so many Muslims can turn a blind eye (or are at least silent) in response to some of the outrageous acts of violence done in the name of Islam. Then, when a non-Muslim asks about this, we are told that such actions are not acceptable practice within Islam. My problem is that I don't ever see those statements directed at the renegade Islamic groups that actually perpeutrate them. I accept that these renegade groups may not be true to Islam, but they nonetheless hide behind the cloak of Islam to justify themselves and there is deafening silence from the majority of Islamic world in response. I would think that if I were an adherent of Islam, that I would not only want to tell non-Muslims that the acts of these others don't truly represent Islam, but tell those who do them to stop taking the falsely name of Islam to justify actions that are not a part of the true practice of Islam.

 

[Muezzin]

Just to link this back to the topic:

Maybe we could make banners or something.

'Want to boost your chances of visiting Hell?

Blow something up!'

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just to link this back to the topic:

Maybe we could make banners or something.

'Want to boost your chances of visiting Hell?

Blow something up!'

:thumbs_up

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Probably a little bit of truth to both aspects of what you said.

Mostly, I would challenge Muslims to speak out against their own when they go astray. Now, I know that Imans do this in their sermons at the level that Keltoi was talking about. I have set in those mosques and heard those sermons myself. So, I don't mean this as a tirade against Islam. But it does concern me that so many Muslims can turn a blind eye (or are at least silent) in response to some of the outrageous acts of violence done in the name of Islam. Then, when a non-Muslim asks about this, we are told that such actions are not acceptable practice within Islam. My problem is that I don't ever see those statements directed at the renegade Islamic groups that actually perpeutrate them. I accept that these renegade groups may not be true to Islam, but they nonetheless hide behind the cloak of Islam to justify themselves and there is deafening silence from the majority of Islamic world in response. I would think that if I were an adherent of Islam, that I would not only want to tell non-Muslims that the acts of these others don't truly represent Islam, but tell those who do them to stop taking the falsely name of Islam to justify actions that are not a part of the true practice of Islam.

The same can be said of Christianity and basically any other ideology.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Keltoi, the sad thing is that it appears, as if one could judge the entire world based on our present conversation (which I know we cannot), that Christians are more worried about correcting their brothers and sisters who stray in the practice of their faith than Muslims are.

Where, my Muslim friends, is the Islamic response to these questions?

It got lost with the response from Christianity condemning Christians from treating us like satan's spawn. The Jewish response to zionism and Jewish superiority complex is tangled there somewhere too.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

The Muslim can't have peace with God, because he practices a works-based salvation. Just ask a faithful Muslim if he can be assured of heaven.

salam to all.

i'm just addressing my opinion, by the way good to be back, miss u all.

that is quite tricky question, when people ask u that especially non muslim, u just cought in the middle, u can't say yes because coz after all that's not your decision--but 4 me the most important thing is it's makes me feel arrogant (takabbur) againts Allah, not a good feeling when u pray to Him everything so many times every days.

u also can't say no, coz that is what people with bad intention want to hear, opportunity to bash islam more.

but 4 the people that actually want to understand this.

true faith can't be achieve just by saying and conformation, even the most compelling miracle can't make people faithful--so many example in the bible itself, such as Moses(pbuh) and his people.

one of the reason all the do's and dont's in islam actually is to nurture faith to the very one who command it..bcoz that's how faith really is...like a plant..seed--nurture---grow...at least thats how i see it.

i can't imagine how faith can be achieve without following God commandment devoutly.

one more thing, that true muslim or maybe christian, if you love your God so much.....heaven will be a secondary thing.

Commandment empowering faith---insha'Allah faith will save you.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Probably a little bit of truth to both aspects of what you said.

Mostly, I would challenge Muslims to speak out against their own when they go astray. Now, I know that Imans do this in their sermons at the level that Keltoi was talking about. I have set in those mosques and heard those sermons myself. So, I don't mean this as a tirade against Islam. But it does concern me that so many Muslims can turn a blind eye (or are at least silent) in response to some of the outrageous acts of violence done in the name of Islam. Then, when a non-Muslim asks about this, we are told that such actions are not acceptable practice within Islam. My problem is that I don't ever see those statements directed at the renegade Islamic groups that actually perpeutrate them. I accept that these renegade groups may not be true to Islam, but they nonetheless hide behind the cloak of Islam to justify themselves and there is deafening silence from the majority of Islamic world in response. I would think that if I were an adherent of Islam, that I would not only want to tell non-Muslims that the acts of these others don't truly represent Islam, but tell those who do them to stop taking the falsely name of Islam to justify actions that are not a part of the true practice of Islam.

This is one of Sam Harris' favourite points to make about religion in general. His idea is that within Christianity, and especially within Islam, it is just a small fraction that are extremists and do nasty things, but the majority in holding the same label "Muslim" or "Christian" and in making criticism of their religion taboo, shield the extremists from criticism.

The immense taboo in criticizing religious "faith" (Which some call "blasphemy") is a weapon used by the extremist to great effect. Even those of us outside of the religions have been trained to feel it improper to criticize something done in the name of religion for fear of insulting somebody. The extremists know this and use it well. This is a serious problem.

 

[Keltoi]

This is one of Sam Harris' favourite points to make about religion in general. His idea is that within Christianity, and especially within Islam, it is just a small fraction that are extremists and do nasty things, but the majority in holding the same label "Muslim" or "Christian" and in making criticism of their religion taboo, shield the extremists from criticism.

The immense taboo in criticizing religious "faith" (Which some call "blasphemy") is a weapon used by the extremist to great effect. Even those of us outside of the religions have been trained to feel it improper to criticize something done in the name of religion for fear of insulting somebody. The extremists know this and use it well. This is a serious problem.

There is a difference between criticizing an extremist element within a religion and mocking religious faith. If you take the Bill Maher approach and mock religion as a form of criticism then of course people of faith will disregard anything he has to say.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Mostly, I would challenge Muslims to speak out against their own when they go astray. Now, I know that Imans do this in their sermons at the level that Keltoi was talking about. I have set in those mosques and heard those sermons myself. So, I don't mean this as a tirade against Islam. But it does concern me that so many Muslims can turn a blind eye (or are at least silent) in response to some of the outrageous acts of violence done in the name of Islam. Then, when a non-Muslim asks about this, we are told that such actions are not acceptable practice within Islam. My problem is that I don't ever see those statements directed at the renegade Islamic groups that actually perpeutrate them. I accept that these renegade groups may not be true to Islam, but they nonetheless hide behind the cloak of Islam to justify themselves and there is deafening silence from the majority of Islamic world in response. I would think that if I were an adherent of Islam, that I would not only want to tell non-Muslims that the acts of these others don't truly represent Islam, but tell those who do them to stop taking the falsely name of Islam to justify actions that are not a part of the true practice of Islam.

I try to call them as I see them, and so I have to say that in the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai, I have heard many Muslims be critical of those who have done this, even if they are Muslim. I am heartened by those condemnations, even as I am saddened that they might have to be made.

And I will also go so far as to acknowledge that thus far the idea that it was Muslims behind this attack is just based on reports of one group with a Muslim sounding name claiming responsibility, that claim itself may yet prove to be untrue.