fate/destiny vs free choice

[Tornado]

In the Quraan, Allah constantly challenges us to think and ponder.

To this: If god gave you a mind to ponder, then you should ponder without guilt.

Also, low imam/faith is NOT the reason why you don't totally understand their viewpoints.

If Allah SWT willed that only ONE person will enter paradise, Strive your utmost best, with all your might and power to BE that ONE person.

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

 

[coddles76]

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

Allah SWt knows that but WE don't know, hence we should strive our hardest to try and recieve the reward of B. I'd rather try with all my effort than not try at all.

 

[Tornado]

Allah SWt knows that but WE don't know, hence we should strive our hardest to try and recieve the reward of B. I'd rather try with all my effort than not try at all.

The point is that your effort is futile. It does not matter what you do, you simply can't change what's already known by a god.

I hope you get a satisfying answer.

I feel a little bad that he didn't get a satisfying answer : (

 

[coddles76]

The point is that your effort is futile. It does not matter what you do, you simply can't change what's already known by a god.

Really? I think we should all just stop and do no deeds of good at all because it would be 'futile' to do so, it would be purely a waste of time to do good. I'd rather work at the CHANCE to be granted entry to paradise rather than give up hope even before hope has started.

And don't feel bad, your sympathy won't make his cause any better so its 'futile' to have the emotion.

 

[Tornado]

Really? I think we should all just stop and do no deeds of good at all because it would be 'futile' to do so, it would be purely a waste of time to do good. I'd rather work at the CHANCE to be granted entry to paradise rather than give up hope even before hope has started.
.

Hmm, what does this have to do with free will? (Off topic: Waste of time to do good? Huh, don't you do good just because you want to, not expecting something in return?)

absuk, don't beat yourself, keep learning and you will arrive at answer.

 

[coddles76]

Hmm, what does this have to do with free will?
absuk, don't beat yourself, keep learning and you will arrive at answer.

Hmmm Free will? Not sure, but it has alot to do with free choice.
Yes I agree, inshAllah with knowledge you will arrive at a fulfilling answer absuk.

 

[Tornado]

Hmmm Free will? Not sure, but it has alot to do with free choice.
Yes I agree, inshAllah with knowledge you will arrive at a fulfilling answer absuk.

It's not the same?

 

[witness]

Asalamualiakum,

Quote...

'I do not want to verbalise that thought. Whilst my Imaan is incredibly low, I fear the thought of apostasy. However, I also fear that if I do not resolve my doubts, I may be a Muslim by name only. Kidding myself into a belief, or ignoring my thoughts is not a healthy place to be.
I read your reply (and the previous explanations from others) and see contradictions. This can be explained by my wavering faith. You do not see any contradictions in your explanation - no doubt due to your strong faith.

I guess asking for further clarification is futile, because the advice will always be to strengthen my faith – rather than resolve the doubts that lead to my lack of faith….'



You need not worry about strengthing your iman...
it is not within our capabilities to do that on our own..we need Allah in everything whether or not we know/ see/ understand or even believe this.

Making dua to Allah to strengthen our iman and to keep us guided is the only way of achieving this (regardless of how strong we think our iman is)....and doing this whether we 'feel' like or not is where the effort/reward lies ... The more in need you are in the more sincere your dua can be.

Maybe you don't need to resolve your doubts or ignore your thoughts.... its not necessary you will find what you are looking for there.
Acknowledging and then accepting them maybe more appropriate. (again dua helps)
perhaps something like (this fate thing...i dont understand it and it seems cruel to me but i'll carrying on striving regardless of these feelings). This can only help keep one humble about oneself and aware of ones own 'non perfect state'...which is no doubt a desirable place to be.

Ironically what you fear you will lose or are lacking in, shines through the very existence of these doubts and fears and your wish for them not to exist...

If the anxiety and concern about your lack of iman is what it appears and remains...inshallah brother you have nothing to worry about...
If shaytan deceives us into thinking that our iman is strong and we are 'sorted'...thats when we need to start worrying.

wasalam

 

[witness]

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

Free choice means A and C chose the wrong path and they'll end up in hell due to the choice they will make....the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome.
We need to take responsibility for the choices we make not blame them on God just because He knows.

 

[absuk]

Free choice means A and C chose the wrong path and they'll end up in hell due to the choice they will make....the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome.
We need to take responsibility for the choices we make not blame them on God just because He knows.

Sister I tried to walk away from this topic, but your last quote really blows my mind. Why do I not get it?

I am not saying that I should not strive to lead a good life. Lets assume I am doing that, and looking for excuses.

Please explain "the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome"

If Allah knows this BEFORE He created me, then how is He NOT responsible for the outcome?

It's just that statement I need help with please

 

[witness]

Asalamualaikum,

I know what i mean but i don't know if i can explain it...i'll try inshallah.

Everyone agreed to be in a race but have forgotten the agreement. So now everyone finds themselves about to participate in this race.

All these drivers need to choose their own wheels as each car is without. Everyone knows how to and has the skill to fit wheels to the car.

Theres a store with a few different types of wheels to choose from. only one type of wheel is the correct type to last throughout the race and will fit all the cars.
There is information readily available on how to choose the correct wheel and attach it.... for anyone who is intrested.

Some people are fortunate enough to stand near the correct wheels and use them.
some people are near the desk and look through the manual...or near an attendant and ask for advice.

Others attach some other wheel and realise it does not fit properly so go to find another one that does.

Then there are some who force the wrong wheel on (for safety the vehicles do not readily accept the wrong wheels but they can be forced on) and start driving the car..
...some drivers from this group may come back after wheels fall off and try to then find the right one.

....some choose the wheels without a thought.. force it on and drive on regardless.


When the race ends....If the cars whose wheels do not last for the length of the race and therefore loses, who is most deserving to be blamed for failing?

Will it be the manufacturer just because he made the wheels or the race organiser for having the race in the first place or the store manager for stocking 2 different type of wheels?
Each of the above people can easily 'know' the outcome due to experience but does that mean they are at fault for the drivers decision?
For me...the ultimate responsibility for 'failing the race due to the wheels falling off..' lies with the driver.

And anyone who wins the race...the victory will be the drivers purely because he did what was to be done but not necessarily due to his own genius.


Can't think of any other example at the moment... not sure if this comes across how i intend it to.

Wasalam