Finding Iman?

madihakhan · Jul 18, 2016

I am not able to guide you to the right path but I can see how other members are doing very well , masha Allah !

Search · Jul 18, 2016

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hey, no problem! Happy to have you here on IB!

So, honestly, there was no one life-altering moment that pushed me from atheism to Islam. It was all of the moments and experiences that had made up my life as a human being in totality that made my transition to Islam happen when I never expected it to so happen as an atheist. Of course, there are incidents and experiences that definitely stand out to me that I recall opening my mind and heart to the possibility of supernatural and then following that the existence of God and then subsequently Islam. So, it's like once incident built open the other without my awareness and led me to Islam as the Truth. What I'll tell you is that no two persons who come to Islam, even if they were former atheists, have the same experiences as every person is of course different and has led different lives.

From what you've revealed, however, the problem seems specifically the unseen. So, I'll specifically deal with the portion of my life when I'd started becoming fascinated with the unseen because maybe that might help. I think one shift was when I'd changed from a regular atheist to what I'd term was a "spiritual" atheist: I'd taken a yoga class which was fine initially and I'd only taken it because it was mandatory part of the liberal arts curriculum at our college. So, we had this yoga teacher give us a meditative/breathing exercise to help the body relax by focusing on different parts of our body and "soul" as we were lying down on our mats and I was of course skeptical of that working as I was a materialist. The first time I did it nothing happened. The second time I did it nothing happened. I was getting frustrated because to be honest the technique that he was talking us through doing in the class instead of relaxing me was stressing me out because I felt absolutely nothing and didn't understand why others seemed to be having a different experience than me and why I was the odd one out. So, the third time, I was doing the same thing and concentrating except something seemed to have changed this time because literally I felt a shift happen because I "connected" with the whatever ("soul") and I felt spiritually uplifted. I wasn't exactly sure what had had happened but something had, and I would from then onward try that technique in my dorm room whenever I felt stressed or to just relax - because it felt really good - so, why not. That was one experience or incident that I'd say opened my mind to the idea of something more, whatever that was, but I didn't frame it of course in my mind at that time as opening me to anything.

Also, ever since I was a child, I'd always had a fascination for ghost stories and stories of witchcraft and magicians and would tell my parents and relatives to tell me stories like that - I don't exactly know why, and I wouldn't really believe it but it sure made me check around the room before I slept at night. I don't think that fascination ever died - it was just lost in the business of life. So, in college, I was an anthropology major and had an opportunity to work with the Department Chair for an year-long independent study project in my junior year. I'd tried to think about what I'd love to study and incidentally my Department Chair herself recommended me to choose a topic on witchcraft as she herself was interested in this subject and wanted to pursue publication in this area. And I didn't oppose it because I remembered my old love for such. So, as I read different books and articles on the concept of witchcraft in different cultures, I realized something very peculiar: Witchcraft had real time effects on people and their lives, which I'd have said as an atheist is impossible because I'd have thought it's nonsense and I didn't believe in what I thought was superstition. But it turns out that I'd have been wrong because the data and anecdotes from different cultures were proving that something does/did happen. So, this opened my mind and heart to the existence of the supernatural, though again I wasn't in mind thinking these things but these things were subconsciously influencing me in a certain direction of which I think I myself had been not quite aware when it was happening.

And of course there are things in the background and in my life and also eventually my study of Islam that led me to become the Muslim I'm today (and that story is really for another day because I can tell this post is already too long!), but those things I haven't mentioned here specifically because they're not relevant to the specific problem you have mentioned with being unable to accept the unseen or still grappling with the notion of it. So, what I'd recommend you to do is for you to read the book E-Squared: Nine Do-It-Yourself Energy Experiments That Prove Your Thoughts Create Your Reality from either your local library or e-library database if you have access to it due to a library card. Now, the reason I recommend this book is because I think it will God-willing open your mind to realizing how consciousness works and open your mind and heart to the idea that consciousness influences the seen. While you're doing the experiments enumerated in the book, I'd also ask you to "talk" to God even if you have to do something like, "Hey, God, I don't know if you exist or not. But here I am wondering if you exist. I don't believe in the unseen. I feel foolish for even talking to you or doing this, but hey, if you exist, it's worth it, right? So, I was thinking please guide me to Yourself, God, if you exist with certainty and have me accept whatever's the true religion. Thank you." I mean of course you don't have to use the words that I did, but basically do it how you would do it, and then believe that if there is a God, God would guide you because presumably God does not reject someone's sincere request.

Also, again, I have given you the really abbreviated version here which doesn't encompass anything but a few incidents of my life dealing with me becoming more open-minded about the unseen. Fast forward, I have to say even after I'd started believing in Islam after studying the religion for some time, I hadn't actually taken that last step as a Muslim because I had been hit with last-minute doubts about God's existence despite everything that had led me to Islam, and I think that's very natural and especially for a person like me who's averse to changes and a bit of a rebel. So, I just kind of had to go back to the basics and rewind and be like, "Okay, so, it's x, y, z. And I know it. But how do I "think" of "God" when I had been so used to thinking of nothing?" Well, the way that I came to this answer is by asking someone close to me who was a theist, and the explanation was exactly what I needed to take that final plunge, and the explanation was, "God can be thought of as a Power with power over everything." Maybe it won't be a life-changing explanation for you but I think for me at that exact moment in time, it was exactly what I needed to hear because it made sense to me since I'd already investigated Islam and felt it was the Truth but I still needed to define in my mind what exactly was this "God" to whom I was going to be pledging my submission.

Wishing you much awesomeness, and please feel welcome to ask anything,

MisterK said:
Thanks for the kind welcome.

It's pretty much all of the unseen I'm still trying to come to terms with accepting, intellectually, at least. I feel a draw to Islam, and very much find myself appreciating and accepting the cultural rules/laws, especially with their focus on family, community, charity, and health.

I still, intellectually, can't reconcile the faith aspects of Islam with my skeptical, logic-oriented mind, filled with the many vast and varied arguments against such things.

So, being a former athiest, how did you find your faith, if you don't mind me asking?

If you skype, you can find my Skype ID on my profile.

MisterK · Jul 18, 2016

Search said:
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hey, no problem! Happy to have you here on IB!

So, honestly, there was no one life-altering moment that pushed me from atheism to Islam. It was all of the moments and experiences that had made up my life as a human being in totality that made my transition to Islam happen when I never expected it to so happen as an atheist. Of course, there are incidents and experiences that definitely stand out to me that I recall opening my mind and heart to the possibility of supernatural and then following that the existence of God and then subsequently Islam. So, it's like once incident built open the other without my awareness and led me to Islam as the Truth. What I'll tell you is that no two persons who come to Islam, even if they were former atheists, have the same experiences as every person is of course different and has led different lives.

I understand. I mean, my skepticism and agnostic atheism all grew from a series of moments and slowly progressed to what it is. Things kept building up, and eventually one piece of information tipped the scales, and my more pantheistic belief in God was just gone. Literally like a light switch flipped off and it just cut the power to my faith in an instant. So I wouldn't expect a journey to faith to be quick and easy, or be a single event (except, perhaps under an uncommon-but-extreme circumstance). And, of course, as you said, every person is different, so I wouldn't expect any one person's story to be exactly what I needed, it is more a matter of looking for perspective and insight from different heights and paths, basically.

Search said:
From what you've revealed, however, the problem seems specifically the unseen. So, I'll specifically deal with the portion of my life when I'd started becoming fascinated with the unseen because maybe that might help. I think one shift was when I'd changed from a regular atheist to what I'd term was a "spiritual" atheist: I'd taken a yoga class which was fine initially and I'd only taken it because it was mandatory part of the liberal arts curriculum at our college. So, we had this yoga teacher give us a meditative/breathing exercise to help the body relax by focusing on different parts of our body and "soul" as we were lying down on our mats and I was of course skeptical of that working as I was a materialist. The first time I did it nothing happened. The second time I did it nothing happened. I was getting frustrated because to be honest the technique that he was talking us through doing in the class instead of relaxing me was stressing me out because I felt absolutely nothing and didn't understand why others seemed to be having a different experience than me and why I was the odd one out. So, the third time, I was doing the same thing and concentrating except something seemed to have changed this time because literally I felt a shift happen because I "connected" with the whatever ("soul") and I felt spiritually uplifted. I wasn't exactly sure what had had happened but something had, and I would from then onward try that technique in my dorm room whenever I felt stressed or to just relax - because it felt really good - so, why not. That was one experience or incident that I'd say opened my mind to the idea of something more, whatever that was, but I didn't frame it of course in my mind at that time as opening me to anything.

Another forum member here on this thread suggested to me to pray, and if I wished, to do so in sujood, following wudu. I've been doing so, and doing both, I can feel an emotional sort of peace and connection that somewhat fits with what you describe. However, because of my skeptic nature, I tend to attribute this to prayer basically equally meditation, which is in general a centering/grounding technique, and the effect being no different from any other form of focused meditation/ritual. It hasn't stopped me from continuing to practice this, however. I am having a difficult time separating what may be real vs just wishful thinking/placebo, basically.

Search said:
Also, ever since I was a child, I'd always had a fascination for ghost stories and stories of witchcraft and magicians and would tell my parents and relatives to tell me stories like that - I don't exactly know why, and I wouldn't really believe it but it sure made me check around the room before I slept at night. I don't think that fascination ever died - it was just lost in the business of life. So, in college, I was an anthropology major and had an opportunity to work with the Department Chair for an year-long independent study project in my junior year. I'd tried to think about what I'd love to study and incidentally my Department Chair herself recommended me to choose a topic on witchcraft as she herself was interested in this subject and wanted to pursue publication in this area. And I didn't oppose it because I remembered my old love for such. So, as I read different books and articles on the concept of witchcraft in different cultures, I realized something very peculiar: Witchcraft had real time effects on people and their lives, which I'd have said as an atheist is impossible because I'd have thought it's nonsense and I didn't believe in what I thought was superstition. But it turns out that I'd have been wrong because the data and anecdotes from different cultures were proving that something does/did happen. So, this opened my mind and heart to the existence of the supernatural, though again I wasn't in mind thinking these things but these things were subconsciously influencing me in a certain direction of which I think I myself had been not quite aware when it was happening.

I've also been attracted to ghost stories, magic, and the supernatural in general, especially lore and stories on angelic forces, both in fiction and mythology. Some of my favourite shows/movies deal with supernatural and/or spiritual themes throughout them, even. At one point on my road to skeptical agnosticism, I even dabbled with Wicca and then more seriously got into the principles and practices of Shamanism (which led to the more pantheistic view of God I mentioned above). On this, my issue would be that anecdotes are typically the poorest form of data, and I see magic and rituals and such serving, at best, as a type of placebo effect. If someone thinks they are cursed, they see more negative things, and subconsciously self-sabotage their life. Someone thinks they're under a spell to bless them, they feel more confident, act more confident, etc. I'd like to point out I'm not trying to be antagonistic or argumentative, just stating where I am, and my thought processes.

Search said:
And of course there are things in the background and in my life and also eventually my study of Islam that led me to become the Muslim I'm today (and that story is really for another day because I can tell this post is already too long!), but those things I haven't mentioned here specifically because they're not relevant to the specific problem you have mentioned with being unable to accept the unseen or still grappling with the notion of it. So, what I'd recommend you to do is for you to read the book E-Squared: Nine Do-It-Yourself Energy Experiments That Prove Your Thoughts Create Your Reality from either your local library or e-library database if you have access to it due to a library card. Now, the reason I recommend this book is because I think it will God-willing open your mind to realizing how consciousness works and open your mind and heart to the idea that consciousness influences the seen. While you're doing the experiments enumerated in the book, I'd also ask you to "talk" to God even if you have to do something like, "Hey, God, I don't know if you exist or not. But here I am wondering if you exist. I don't believe in the unseen. I feel foolish for even talking to you or doing this, but hey, if you exist, it's worth it, right? So, I was thinking please guide me to Yourself, God, if you exist with certainty and have me accept whatever's the true religion. Thank you." I mean of course you don't have to use the words that I did, but basically do it how you would do it, and then believe that if there is a God, God would guide you because presumably God does not reject someone's sincere request.

Browsing through the (digital) book, I can see a lot of the things being discussed, and how they are being discussed, is actually fairly similar to things I used to believe relating to energy, consciousness, and our ability to channel/manipulate/access it. I've even done energy manipulation experiments that allow me to "feel" energy in my hands. Had moments that seemed to have been, effectively, telepathic, but all of these can also be explained as placebo, coincidence, and the like. That said, I'll still go ahead and do that first 48hr experiment, as for the rest, I'm in the process of reading a few different books on Islam at the moment, so I'll check this book out more thoroughly when I can, and try to go into it open minded. As for talking to God, in the above mentioned prayers I've been doing, I've basically been doing what you described as part of it. My issue is, even if I received a direct, normally unquestionable response, it'd still get filtered through my skepticism and such, and probably get chalked up to, at best, coincidence or bias in thought and just seeing what I want to see. Again, not trying to be contrary or argumentative, just where I'm at intellectually, vs emotionally, which is clearly seeking/searching.

Search said:
Also, again, I have given you the really abbreviated version here which doesn't encompass anything but a few incidents of my life dealing with me becoming more open-minded about the unseen. Fast forward, I have to say even after I'd started believing in Islam after studying the religion for some time, I hadn't actually taken that last step as a Muslim because I had been hit with last-minute doubts about God's existence despite everything that had led me to Islam, and I think that's very natural and especially for a person like me who's averse to changes and a bit of a rebel. So, I just kind of had to go back to the basics and rewind and be like, "Okay, so, it's x, y, z. And I know it. But how do I "think" of "God" when I had been so used to thinking of nothing?" Well, the way that I came to this answer is by asking someone close to me who was a theist, and the explanation was exactly what I needed to take that final plunge, and the explanation was, "God can be thought of as a Power with power over everything." Maybe it won't be a life-changing explanation for you but I think for me at that exact moment in time, it was exactly what I needed to hear because it made sense to me since I'd already investigated Islam and felt it was the Truth but I still needed to define in my mind what exactly was this "God" to whom I was going to be pledging my submission.

Wishing you much awesomeness, and please feel welcome to ask anything,

My most recent view of God, prior to my agnostic atheism, was pretty much as you friend described. An infinite, sentient (though on a level far beyond our level of sentience), power/energy through which, and from which, all things flowed and came from, which, by default of all things born of it, it also had power over. Effectively I was giving sentience/godhood to the universe itself (hence the pantheism). Nothing that existed was separate from the universe/God, all things came from the same source (energy/God), that sort of thing. It is interesting to me, based on this limited recital of events you've given at least, the reverse parallels I see between us. What led you to theism seems to be similar to the journey that led me to my agnosticism. Now, my heart wants to find faith again, but my head is simply wagging it's finger going, "Nope." And this is even while knowing people much smarter than I, much more logical than I, have faith and/or religion, so I know, despite my own misgivings and arguments against such things, intelligence and logic aren't inherently contrary to such things by any means (I say this like this as, thinking back over the thread, I realise some of what I've said may have come across as, perhaps, patronising or some such, which it was not ever intended to if any of it did), so it seems it is just a matter of seeing the journey through to its end, wherever it may take me.

Thank your for your post, though it does leave me curious about your path to Islam. You've given some basics on how you came to accept the unseen, but what was it that brought to belief in the unseen as set out by Islam?

muslimah_B · Jul 18, 2016

Will do. I suppose another thing I've been wondering is must the Quran be taken entirely literally, as if 100% factual and true? This doesn't discount the divinity of it or the revelation of Muhammad, but there are some bits of it that also make it hard to believe if needed to be taken as literal (mostly things like the moon being its own light, the Earth being flat, that sort of thing, things which run counter to what is known).

Yes the Quran is meant to be taken as 100% true, but not everything in the Quran is meant to be taken in "literal" there are many metaphorical instances, hypothetical questions, similes for easier to understand comparisons, this is where it comes upon us to learn the Quran Tasfeer from a knowledgeable person, and also having a good command of the arabic language helps to understand how the verses should be interpreted and what the meaning behind it is.

eg1. "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?" (surah saad : 75)
"Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and [then] they are their owners?" Surah Yaseen: 71)

so here in these verses Allah is saying He has a hand like us, BUT we don't know if this is metaphorical, or figurative, as Allah is above and beyond us in everything, we can't we can't understand a unlimited being as we are limited beings, we won't know what Allah looks like until we get to Jannah (heaven) in sha Allah (If God wills), so in these types of verses, we leave it as we just don't know.

as for the verses of the earth being flat, here are some answers explaining them (they do a much better job than me lol) https://islamqa.info/en/118698 and https://islamqa.info/en/211655 it basically explains that the earth is indeed round and no scholar disagrees with this, but our perspective of the earth is flat as in to walk on as earth is so massive (but please do read the two links i posted for a better detailed answer.)

Many Christians, for example, see much of the Bible as divinely inspired symboism, which (for them) reveals higher truths. Is this sort of view mirrored by any in Islam regarding the Quran?
Thanks for the videos. I'll watch them as soon as I can. I should start learning them. Better to be prepared (just like I have the Shahada memorized {in Arabic and English} for if/when I'm ready to say it) for the potential future need of them.

Yeah, I've a lot of issues with Catholicism, a lot of them based around the politicking and power plays within it. I never once felt any real draw or connection to it, not in any good way, and definitely not like the pull I'm feeling towards Islam.

i wouldn't say there is any symbolism in Islam or that defines Islam, it more focuses on our connection with the Quran as a guidance for all of mankind, sure we have calligraphy, the colours white & green are mentioned a lot but it doesn't necessarily "inspire" or make them symbols of our religion. the Quran is meant to inspire us, teach us, guide us, its meant to be held in such a high regard as its the direct words of Allah with no alterations etc.

already have the shahada memorised thats a brilliant sign

just let go of your doubts and say it already

For a good while I had a strong anti-theist kick, and had a pretty harsh view of Islam, but as with you, it was purely an outsider view. I've softened in many of my views as I've aged, but especially now, having read a translation of the Quran, it is pretty clear all the "GOTCHA!" verses that get thrown around to "prove" Islam as war-like, violent, sexist, etc, are typically use with no context associated, when, in fact, those verses have very specific context that doesn't mean what is being claimed.

Funny what even a cursory education on a subject can do.

yes that is exactly why we can't cherry pick verses, without having a full understanding of what the verses was referring to, and if there was a specific time the verses was revealed, exactly like all verses about killing, which where all revealed during times of war, and we all know Islam is not a pacifist region and gives us every right to defend ourselves whilst also giving strict laws with regard to this.

That's fair, and I like the Haddith you cited, as it persuades to do and promote good while equally disuading from doing and promoting the wrong. I still have to come to terms and find faith in Judgment Day, though.

ok what do you think happens when we die ? and what do you think happens to all the bad people in this world who die without being punished or having justice done for those they harmed, oppressed, killed ?
do you believe in heaven and hell ?

I can understand that, but doing something entirely out of fear is, as I see, a terrible way to live. It is one thing to both love your mom and live in fear of doing wrong against her because of threat of punishment, but it is an entirely different thing to live in constant fear and only behave out of fear of abuse/punishment while harboring no love for the punisher.

It is the latter to which I refer in my previous comment, that worshipping and following any religion or tenet strictly from a place of fear seems wrong to me. And that sort of primal, gut-wrenching fear of doomsday prophecies and End Times/Day of Judgment (even if I don't currently have faith in such a thing happening) shouldn't be the sole reason to convert to anything, I feel.

what i mean by this is that we have to find a balance between fear and love of Allah, fear enough to not commit sins, love enough to do things that are pleasing to Allah like giving charity, being kind to your parents, helping people, visiting the sick.
fear stops you doing bad things as your scared of being punished, but love makes you do extra things to prove your love for that person, so lets look at it this way. You say you love Allah so how do you prove it ? By sacrificing certain things right, by going above and beyond, by going out of your way, now fear would just keep you doing the bare minimum to stay out of the way of being punished, but the love pushes you even further to prove yourself (voluntary prayers, giving charity randomly, always thanking Allah)
patience can be from both fear and love e.g., you show patience through a trial as your scared of committing a sin and loosing the mercy of Allah, you would be patient because Allah loves those who are patient, and you want to be loved by Allah, so you would try and find the middle and be patient from fear of loosing mercy but also wanting Allah to be pleased with you
i hope this makes sense now

And I can understand this, and if I found my faith, accept it. But then, that's still part and parcel to my situation in general. Maybe all of this is a test from Allah, trying to guide me to Islam, but the skeptic in me says it's likely more a result of my longing for meaning and community and such. Nothing inherently says the two can't be related (Allah opening my mind to those missing things to lead me to Islam, for example), but my reason side, based what current knowledge and understanding of things says it's just me trying to fill a void with my life, not divine will of a Creator I haven't beleived in for years.

And, of course, being aware of this difference in my emotional vs intellectual self is, in itself, disruptive to my general peace and contendedness and mental well-being. Which, as you put it, would be an apt description of Allah or Shaytan as you decribed it.

The thing is, given my current beliefs vs everything I'm striving for per this thread, if I stayed strong in my beliefs, I'd not be here at all, given my skeptical agnosticism. It's more about reforming my beliefs more than it is about retaining them at this point.

Recently there was a point where I just said it wasn't going to happen, I was done. And then that actually made me feel a bit depressed and down, so here I am, still seaeching, still striving.

Thank you. And no worries about the length, I've enjoyed any and all feedback and discussion so far. And really, the more personal insights given, the more that may inform my own quest.

like i said before its the tricks of shaytan, he will pull you away from Islam anyway he can, he will continue to make your doubts overpower you if you let them, you have to be strong and find your faith and hold onto it with everything you have.

This is what happened to me with my doubts of the unseen, covering, prophets etc, all of this of course screamed against my logical thinking, that if i can't see, touch, smell, hear, taste then it doesn't exist, and as my journey to Islam became more prominent the more these doubts would creep up on me more and more everyday, but what i done which helped me was i researched on every topic i had doubts on and asked other muslims to explain to me these issues, as i kept defeating these doubts they would slowly begin to be background noise so to to speak, they stopped having such a prominent effect on me and my heart began to accept Islam as the truth no matter how "far fetched" some of it may seem to people who don't believe or have faith

you have to say to yourself "if i can believe in God/Allah which i can't see, touch, hear, smell then why can i not believe that He created other things that i won't be able to see, touch, hear, smell" we as humans have this thing where we always have to try to understand everything, we always have to have a logical explanation to everything, we have to know anything and everything, BUT we can't we are limited, Allah is unlimited beyond comprehension, beyond understanding, and there will be things that we will never have the answer to, why can't we understand that and be humble to the fact we are NOT the most intelligent beings, yes we have intelligence & intellect but it is limited. so it comes to it as if you believe in Allah this is faith, and when you read the Quran this is Allah speaking to us, Allah tells us that there will be things we won't understand and we can't

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“Say: “None in the heavens and the earth knows the Ghaib (Unseen) except Allaah, nor can they perceive when they shall be resurrected”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][al-Naml 27:65]

[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“And with Him are the keys of the Ghayb (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in the land and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but He knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record” [al-An’aam 6:59]
[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“Verily, Allaah, with Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allaah is All‑Knower, All‑Aware (of things)”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][Luqmaan 31:34]

[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]““(He Alone is) the All‑Knower of the Ghayb (Unseen), and He reveals to none His Ghayb (Unseen)” [al-Jinn 72:26].

"Has he knowledge of the unseen (ghayb) so he can see [the future]?" (53.35)

"Say [O Muhammad!]: “I do not say to you that I have the treasures of Allah nor that I know the unseen (ghayb). And I do not say to you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Are the blind and the seeing equal? Do you not think?” (6.50)[/FONT]"Say [O Muhammad!]: “I cannot control any benefit or harm for myself save what Allah wills. Had I known the unseen (ghayb), I would have revelled in good and no harm would have touched me. I am only a warner and announcer of good news for people who believe.” (7.188)

i remember there was always this argument towards people who believe in God by those with no faith at all "prove to me God exists with logic" the person who believed in God would say to them "prove to me God doesn't exist with facts" and this will carry on until the end of time lol

i saw you was into ghost stories and stuff... so am i LOL i still haven't stopped, black magic, curses possession are all possible in Islam, if your interested you can look into this creation called "jinns" another part of the "unseen" a creation before us thats made of smokeless fire, we can't see them, but they can see us, they would be as you describe ghosts except they are not souls of people who have passed away
here is one video if you like then i can post more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKuSnFcufkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m7twsfowzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdMvJrvzzWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVJyVVj6ZII

MisterK · Jul 18, 2016

muslimah_B said:
Yes the Quran is meant to be taken as 100% true, but not everything in the Quran is meant to be taken in "literal" there are many metaphorical instances, hypothetical questions, similes for easier to understand comparisons, this is where it comes upon us to learn the Quran Tasfeer from a knowledgeable person, and also having a good command of the arabic language helps to understand how the verses should be interpreted and what the meaning behind it is.

eg1. "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?" (surah saad : 75)
"Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and [then] they are their owners?" Surah Yaseen: 71)

so here in these verses Allah is saying He has a hand like us, BUT we don't know if this is metaphorical, or figurative, as Allah is above and beyond us in everything, we can't we can't understand a unlimited being as we are limited beings, we won't know what Allah looks like until we get to Jannah (heaven) in sha Allah (If God wills), so in these types of verses, we leave it as we just don't know.

as for the verses of the earth being flat, here are some answers explaining them (they do a much better job than me lol) it basically explains that the earth is indeed round and no scholar disagrees with this, but our perspective of the earth is flat as in to walk on as earth is so massive (but please do read the two links i posted for a better detailed answer.)

Okay, that helps clear some things up, then. I know I have a lot more research and studying to do on the matter, but if the Quran was meant to be taken absolutely literal, I don't think I'd be able to do that. Good to know that isn't the case. The links are also useful, thanks.

muslimah_B said:
i wouldn't say there is any symbolism in Islam or that defines Islam, it more focuses on our connection with the Quran as a guidance for all of mankind, sure we have calligraphy, the colours white & green are mentioned a lot but it doesn't necessarily "inspire" or make them symbols of our religion. the Quran is meant to inspire us, teach us, guide us, its meant to be held in such a high regard as its the direct words of Allah with no alterations etc.

Understood, but not quite what I meant. I meant how some Christians accept the Bible as being a divine book, but the stories are symbolic and allegorical, not necessarily meant as having happened, but tales told to relate divine truths (as they see it). Such as, for example, a Christian who believes Noah's story is more a parable than historical. Or how in Judaism, more and more Rabbi's seem to be saying that the Exodus is a story designed to deliver a message/point/purpose, and isn't actually a historical fact. That's what I meant by symbolic.

muslimah_B said:
already have the shahada memorised thats a brilliant sign just let go of your doubts and say it already

Well, I could, but again, if I do it, I want it done with faith, not hoping I'll find it after the fact.

muslimah_B said:
ok what do you think happens when we die ? and what do you think happens to all the bad people in this world who die without being punished or having justice done for those they harmed, oppressed, killed ?
do you believe in heaven and hell ?

Basically, I think, regardless of good or bad, our bodies die, our consciousness ends with our brain function, our bodies decompose and the natural cycle continues. Lights go out, and you stop existing except as memories and such, or whatever the legacy you may have left behind is. If you were a terrible person, you probably left behind a terrible legacy. No heaven, no hell, and justice, whatever one's concept of it may be, happens in this world, or not at all.

muslimah_B said:
what i mean by this is that we have to find a balance between fear and love of Allah, fear enough to not commit sins, love enough to do things that are pleasing to Allah like giving charity, being kind to your parents, helping people, visiting the sick.
fear stops you doing bad things as your scared of being punished, but love makes you do extra things to prove your love for that person, so lets look at it this way. You say you love Allah so how do you prove it ? By sacrificing certain things right, by going above and beyond, by going out of your way, now fear would just keep you doing the bare minimum to stay out of the way of being punished, but the love pushes you even further to prove yourself (voluntary prayers, giving charity randomly, always thanking Allah)
patience can be from both fear and love e.g., you show patience through a trial as your scared of committing a sin and loosing the mercy of Allah, you would be patient because Allah loves those who are patient, and you want to be loved by Allah, so you would try and find the middle and be patient from fear of loosing mercy but also wanting Allah to be pleased with you
i hope this makes sense now

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I understood your point, but I meant despite my primal fear of Judgement Day scenarios, fear alone isn't a reason to worship anything, in my opinion. One does need, at least, that balance you mention.

muslimah_B said:
like i said before its the tricks of shaytan, he will pull you away from Islam anyway he can, he will continue to make your doubts overpower you if you let them, you have to be strong and find your faith and hold onto it with everything you have.

Belief in Shaytan may be even more difficult than a faith in Allah for me, actually. Before being an atheist, I had a belief in my concept of God, but hadn't believed in any sort of devil figure for quite a long while. The existence of such a being just seemed sort of contradictory to me, if God is, in fact, all loving and all good (as I had believed). Ultimately, that said, it all goes back to faith, which, as we well know, is my struggle here.

muslimah_B said:
This is what happened to me with my doubts of the unseen, covering, prophets etc, all of this of course screamed against my logical thinking, that if i can't see, touch, smell, hear, taste then it doesn't exist, and as my journey to Islam became more prominent the more these doubts would creep up on me more and more everyday, but what i done which helped me was i researched on every topic i had doubts on and asked other muslims to explain to me these issues, as i kept defeating these doubts they would slowly begin to be background noise so to to speak, they stopped having such a prominent effect on me and my heart began to accept Islam as the truth no matter how "far fetched" some of it may seem to people who don't believe or have faith

you have to say to yourself "if i can believe in God/Allah which i can't see, touch, hear, smell then why can i not believe that He created other things that i won't be able to see, touch, hear, smell" we as humans have this thing where we always have to try to understand everything, we always have to have a logical explanation to everything, we have to know anything and everything, BUT we can't we are limited, Allah is unlimited beyond comprehension, beyond understanding, and there will be things that we will never have the answer to, why can't we understand that and be humble to the fact we are NOT the most intelligent beings, yes we have intelligence & intellect but it is limited. so it comes to it as if you believe in Allah this is faith, and when you read the Quran this is Allah speaking to us, Allah tells us that there will be things we won't understand and we can't

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“Say: “None in the heavens and the earth knows the Ghaib (Unseen) except Allaah, nor can they perceive when they shall be resurrected”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][al-Naml 27:65]

[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“And with Him are the keys of the Ghayb (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in the land and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but He knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record” [al-An’aam 6:59]
[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“Verily, Allaah, with Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allaah is All‑Knower, All‑Aware (of things)”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][Luqmaan 31:34]

[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]““(He Alone is) the All‑Knower of the Ghayb (Unseen), and He reveals to none His Ghayb (Unseen)” [al-Jinn 72:26].

"Has he knowledge of the unseen (ghayb) so he can see [the future]?" (53.35)

"Say [O Muhammad!]: “I do not say to you that I have the treasures of Allah nor that I know the unseen (ghayb). And I do not say to you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Are the blind and the seeing equal? Do you not think?” (6.50)[/FONT]"Say [O Muhammad!]: “I cannot control any benefit or harm for myself save what Allah wills. Had I known the unseen (ghayb), I would have revelled in good and no harm would have touched me. I am only a warner and announcer of good news for people who believe.” (7.188)

I'll keep working on it. However little, I do seem to be making a bit of progress on the matter.

muslimah_B said:
i remember there was always this argument towards people who believe in God by those with no faith at all "prove to me God exists with logic" the person who believed in God would say to them "prove to me God doesn't exist with facts" and this will carry on until the end of time lol

i saw you was into ghost stories and stuff... so am i LOL i still haven't stopped, black magic, curses possession are all possible in Islam, if your interested you can look into this creation called "jinns" another part of the "unseen" a creation before us thats made of smokeless fire, we can't see them, but they can see us, they would be as you describe ghosts except they are not souls of people who have passed away
here is one video if you like then i can post more

My response to that sort of argument was basically that the one making the claim was the one who needed to provide evidence of their argument. Thus, I never claimed there was no god, just that I don't believe in one, that I don't see any evidence to support the existence of one. I never made the absolute claim that there was no god, thus never put myself in a position to have to prove such a claim. That's how I avoided that sort of back-and-forth.

The Jinn seem interesting, and remind me of what I picked up from my days semi-practising Shamanism, in that all sorts of spirit entities existed, and could take a multitude of forms. One of the books I'm reading on the metaphysics of Islam feels familiar to me, because it reads similar to things I used to believe, just using Islamic terminology.

I'll check out the videos when I can. I should have a lot more free time coming up soon, for a bit, at least, and I hope to catch up on reading and all the videos I've been linked to here. Thanks for them.

Search · Jul 19, 2016

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@MisterK

Hey, that's wonderful and awesome that you and I have parallels in our story except as you said it moved you towards agnosticism while it moved me towards Islam. And please don't apologize for any of your feelings or thoughts or words because I am not taking any umbrage and in fact am so happy to find you trying to find a path to God. So, God-willing I'll update this thread with a more detailed post later so that you have a better idea of what led me to have the belief in the unseen as set out by Islam.

In the meantime, keep doing whatever you think is working for you, and since you sound like such an intelligent and thoughtful person, I'm sure you'll find your way to God. Just be patient with yourself because that's so important in life regardless and always, always, always trust your instincts. Your instincts are that part of you that is an internal compass that will guide you and please be able to distinguish it from doubts, which are always a separate but natural matter that happen to everyone when they take a path in life that is new to them and thereby scary for that reason.

Wishing you much awesomeness,

greenhill · Jul 19, 2016

Wooowwwww a lot of reading.. got to about post 18 and I'm not even halfway through..

will read up later...

Again, I keep recommending the same video, over and over.. (don't think I have recommended any other ^o) .. it is Jeffrey Lang on YouTube "The Purpose of Life" . IT 93 minutes and in 2 parts. As I have also said about it in the past, the intro is a bit long but necessary and the ending is a bit rushed.. I am a muslim and I already had faith. He made it even better.

I see a recurring statement by you and that is your heart rebels and your head sees sense.. at least that is the gyst of my understanding. At least if that is the order, then it is the normal route so to speak. The reason to believe as opposed to the desire to believe.

Desire is the 'nafs' in islam. That has to be managed and control, through humility and charity, even fasting.

The heart's greatest weapon against the mind is to plant seeds of doubts called waswas..

Allah asks you to ponder, reason, and other words I forget off hand and it all uses the mind. Nothing is said of the heart and aspirations.

Hope it helps.. trying to keep it brief..

eace:

TafiNami · Jul 19, 2016

Iman is - to fear of ALLAH in your heart. You can recharge your Iman by Reading Quran again and again. And by talking too much about Allah to other.

Source: Small Khadem

muslimah_B · Jul 21, 2016

Okay, that helps clear some things up, then. I know I have a lot more research and studying to do on the matter, but if the Quran was meant to be taken absolutely literal, I don't think I'd be able to do that. Good to know that isn't the case. The links are also useful, thanks.

Understood, but not quite what I meant. I meant how some Christians accept the Bible as being a divine book, but the stories are symbolic and allegorical, not necessarily meant as having happened, but tales told to relate divine truths (as they see it). Such as, for example, a Christian who believes Noah's story is more a parable than historical. Or how in Judaism, more and more Rabbi's seem to be saying that the Exodus is a story designed to deliver a message/point/purpose, and isn't actually a historical fact. That's what I meant by symbolic.

oh i apologise i thought you meant literal symbols like the cross and images of Jesus p.b.u.h (peace be upon him)
In Islam the stories mentioned in the Quran are all historical facts, as in they did happen and they are being retold to us for a specific reason either to warn us from committing certain actions/sins, or to remind us of the signs of Allahs immense power, certain stories are repeated in the Quran to set in stone the meaning/message Allah is trying to get through to us, i.e Moses p.b.u.h (peace be upon him) struggles with Pharaoh are mentioned numerous times to remind us of what happens to those who oppress people and claim Allah to not be God astagfirllah (May Allah forgive me) but they (pharaoh) thought he was, to remind us of who had such a arrogant nature, and if we was to show signs of arrogance then we would be following the footsteps of pharaoh & shaytan (devil) but it also teaches us that through patience and prayer and sincerity Allahs help will come & Allah is the one and only God of everything, as Moses p.b.u.h (peace be upon him) went through such a testing trial from birth, right through to him p.b.u.h being a man, through the trials with Pharaoh he was patient, still called people to Allah, never gave up faith, even though Pharaoh was such a "scary & powerful" enemy, it shows that we should put trust in Allah and believe that His help will always come, so this story is repeated relating to each different topic.

so yes all stories In the Quran are truth, all prophets/ messengers mentioned are fact and all their stories actually happened.

Well, I could, but again, if I do it, I want it done with faith, not hoping I'll find it after the fact.

sooooo close but yet so far

in sha Allah (God willing you) will get there, just try to have a open mind when your learning about islam not your logical mind

Basically, I think, regardless of good or bad, our bodies die, our consciousness ends with our brain function, our bodies decompose and the natural cycle continues. Lights go out, and you stop existing except as memories and such, or whatever the legacy you may have left behind is. If you were a terrible person, you probably left behind a terrible legacy. No heaven, no hell, and justice, whatever one's concept of it may be, happens in this world, or not at all.

ok in Islam death is just the beginning

. so we know there will be a judgement day right ? but not WHEN, so when somebody dies, as a muslim they are buried as quick as possible, and once they are buried and everyone leaves the cemetery, two angels will question them and depending on their answers is what their resting place will be like

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]It was narrated that al-Bara’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for the funeral of a man from among the Ansaar. We came to the grave and when (the deceased) was placed in the lahd, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and we sat around him, as if there were birds on our heads (i.e., quiet and still). In his hand he had a stick with which he was scratching the ground. Then he raised his head and said, “Seek refuge with Allaah from the torment of the grave”, two or three times. Then he said, “When the believing slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with white faces like the sun, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. They bring with them shrouds from Paradise and perfumes from Paradise. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O good soul, come forth to forgiveness from Allaah and His pleasure.’ Then it comes out easily like a drop of water from the the mouth of a waterskin. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume, and there comes from it a fragrance like the finest musk on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this good soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the best names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is opened, and (the soul) is welcomed and accompanied to the next heaven by those who are closest to Allaah, until they reach the seventh heaven. Then Allaah says: ‘Record the book of My slave in ‘Illiyoon in the seventh heaven, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again.’ So his soul is returned to his body and there come to him two angels who make him sit up and they say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He says, ‘Allaah.’ They say, ‘What is your religion?’ He says, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They say, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He says, ‘He is the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ They say, ‘What did you do?’ He says, ‘I read the Book of Allaah and I believed in it.’ Then a voice calls out from heaven, ‘My slave has spoken the truth, so prepare for him a bed from Paradise and clothe him from Paradise, and open for him a gate to Paradise.’ Then there comes to him some of its fragrance, and his grave is made wide, as far as he can see. Then there comes to him a man with a handsome face and handsome clothes, and a good fragrance, who says, ‘Receive the glad tidings that will bring you joy this day.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which brings glad tidings.’ He says, ‘I am your righteous deeds.’ He says, ‘O Lord, hasten the Hour so that I may return to my family and my wealth.’ But when the disbelieving slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with black faces, bringing sackcloth, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O evil soul, come forth to the wrath of Allaah and His anger.’ Then his soul disperses inside his body, then comes out cutting the veins and nerves, like a skewer passing through wet wool. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that sackcloth, and there comes from it a stench like the foulest stench of a dead body on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this evil soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the worst names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is not opened.” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited (interpretation of the meaning): [/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][al-A’raaf 7:40][/FONT]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I understood your point, but I meant despite my primal fear of Judgement Day scenarios, fear alone isn't a reason to worship anything, in my opinion. One does need, at least, that balance you mention.

Click to expand...

oh ok sorry lol, but yet balance is needed in everything in life especially as a muslim, so we should be happy and enjoy life, but not so happy that we forget the realities of life such as death, we shouldn't be extreme in our religion,

[FONT=pt_sans]Prophet (PBUH) once asked one of His companion Abdullah ibn ‘Amr” R.A[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]“Have I heard right that you fast everyday and stand in prayer all night?[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]Abdullah replied:[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]“Yes, O Messenger of God”[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]The Prophet (PBUH) said:“Do not do that. Fast, as well as, eat and drink. Stand in prayer, as well as, sleep. This is because your body has a right upon you, your eyes have a right upon you, your wife has a right upon you, and your guest has a right upon you.” (Bukhari)[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]

“O children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: Eat and drink but waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters. Say: ‘who hath forbidden the beautiful gifts of Allah which He hath produced for His servants and the things clean and pure (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.” (7:31-32)

[/FONT]“Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but aim to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and the nights.” Saheeh Bukhari 1:2:38

Belief in Shaytan may be even more difficult than a faith in Allah for me, actually. Before being an atheist, I had a belief in my concept of God, but hadn't believed in any sort of devil figure for quite a long while. The existence of such a being just seemed sort of contradictory to me, if God is, in fact, all loving and all good (as I had believed). Ultimately, that said, it all goes back to faith, which, as we well know, is my struggle here.

I'll keep working on it. However little, I do seem to be making a bit of progress on the matter.

Click to expand...

yes just keep working on it bit by bit, take slow steps, but whatever you do just keep moving forward, i won't send you any videos on this topic just yet, il wait until you finish the others, i don't want to suddenly overwhelm you with information overload lol, so we can take each topic your finding hard one by one and try and work through them individually, instead of loads of different subjects all at once, it can be quite daunting.

My response to that sort of argument was basically that the one making the claim was the one who needed to provide evidence of their argument. Thus, I never claimed there was no god, just that I don't believe in one, that I don't see any evidence to support the existence of one. I never made the absolute claim that there was no god, thus never put myself in a position to have to prove such a claim. That's how I avoided that sort of back-and-forth.

The Jinn seem interesting, and remind me of what I picked up from my days semi-practising Shamanism, in that all sorts of spirit entities existed, and could take a multitude of forms. One of the books I'm reading on the metaphysics of Islam feels familiar to me, because it reads similar to things I used to believe, just using Islamic terminology.

I'll check out the videos when I can. I should have a lot more free time coming up soon, for a bit, at least, and I hope to catch up on reading and all the videos I've been linked to here. Thanks for them.

Click to expand...

lol good way to avoid the back and forth, but unfortunately for this topic its the main issue so it will have to be discussed hopefully with as little back and forth as possible

yes jinns are a very interesting topic to study, it does branch out into different sub-topics such as, possession, black magic, magic, hauntings, the different types,

so once you watch all the other videos, then we can go over the doubts you still have and in sha Allah move forward from there, i don't want to keep jumping topics without you actually understanding it properly,
so please do let me know and we will go over one topic at a time to make it easier for you

(sorry for my late response but i suffer from severe migraines and had a rather bad migraine attack over the last few days)

Pygoscelis · Jul 25, 2016

MisterK said:
My response to that sort of argument was basically that the one making the claim was the one who needed to provide evidence of their argument. Thus, I never claimed there was no god, just that I don't believe in one, that I don't see any evidence to support the existence of one. I never made the absolute claim that there was no god, thus never put myself in a position to have to prove such a claim. That's how I avoided that sort of back-and-forth.

This exactly. Well put. If you press them, even the most adamant atheists and and-theists will admit that they don't know for sure that Gods don't exist. We simply don't believe that he does, as we see no reason to believe that he does, and so we see him as imaginary, just like Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster, etc. Such beings COULD exist, and evidence for them could convert us to believers.

muslimah_B · Jul 25, 2016

Pygoscelis said:
This exactly. Well put. If you press them, even the most adamant atheists and and-theists will admit that they don't know for sure that Gods don't exist. We simply don't believe that he does, as we see no reason to believe that he does, and so we see him as imaginary, just like Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster, etc. Such beings COULD exist, and evidence for them could convert us to believers.

Greetings earthling

I understand you dont believe but comparing God to the likes of big foot & loch ness monster & abominable snowman can be seen as extremely offensive, since God is on a totally different level as we worship & pray to God, they are just incomparable i hope you understand

So what exactly do you believe in as to how the entire universe was created, all the galaxies, planets and places we dont even know exist.

- how earth was created with the exact amount of gravity to keep us down but not squash us to death, right amount of oxygen, that the trees take our carbon dioxide and re-produce oxygen for us.

- how animals are born with instinct, and just know what they have to do to survive

- water cycle, how simple it is but yet so incredibly important to us.

- human body muscles, tendons, arteries, bones, cartilage, skin, ears, eyes, nose, mouth

These are just small examples i have mentioned that even we as muslims are meant to think about, that prove to us a ultimate being created all of this, it didnt just evolve or begin from nothing.

Do you ever think about these things?
We tend to overlook alot of things and not really place importance on them, but sometimes even the most simplest of things can have such an amazing impact on your outlook of life

When muslims are feeling low faith wise, we are told to look to nature, to look at the stars, the skies, animals, etc etc as well as helping rekindle faith it is also meant to have a calming effect and bring us back down to earth

And what sort of evidence are you hoping to find ? Or what sort of evidence would convince you that God does exist ?

Pygoscelis · Jul 25, 2016

^ Seems like material for another thread. I didn't mean to derail this one. Just wanted to make the above point. Theists appear to be 100% certain. Atheists never are.

MisterK · Jul 25, 2016

Pygoscelis said:
^ Seems like material for another thread. I didn't mean to derail this one. Just wanted to make the above point. Theists appear to be 100% certain. Atheists never are.

If you wish to reply, feel free. Based on your previous post, I figure a lot of your responses would probably match mine, were I to answer.

muslimah_B · Jul 25, 2016

Pygoscelis said:
^ Seems like material for another thread. I didn't mean to derail this one. Just wanted to make the above point. Theists appear to be 100% certain. Atheists never are.

Ok no problem, il be happy to speak to you on this matter if you choose to start another thread on it

Wishing you a awesome day

Serinity · Jul 25, 2016

Just keep making dua to Allah :swt: say "Oh God, if you are there, then guide me."

Once you are convinced about the Creator, you'll have no problem believing in the Unseen.

As for the unseen, logically, I think "we didn't create ourselves, and before my existence, I remember nothing, so just like this world existed before me, so must the Unseen, albeit I see it not with my eyes."

As for believing in a Creator, reflect and ponder on creation. Read Qur'an.

I won't go about how and why I believe in the Creator, but I will say this: I believe in Allah, and I know of His existence by His signs in creation.

you can not physically see intelligence, but you know intelligence exists. Because there are indications to its existence. How do you know that I am a real human being, and not a robot? Have you ever seen me? No. How do you know I have intelligence? have you seen my intelligence?

we know Allah exists, not because we see Him, because we don't, but because we recognize His signs in creation.

MisterK · Jul 25, 2016

Serinity said:
Just keep making dua to Allah :swt: say "Oh God, if you are there, then guide me."

This is what I have been doing, and intend to continue doing so.

Serinity said:
Once you are convinced about the Creator, you'll have no problem believing in the Unseen.

I agree. If I find faith in one, I imagine the others will follow pretty easily.

Serinity said:
As for the unseen, logically, I think "we didn't create ourselves, and before my existence, I remember nothing, so just like this world existed before me, so must the Unseen, albeit I see it not with my eyes."

In regarding the "Unseen" as Allah, angels, Jannah, hell, Jinn, and all such things, then I just don't, currently, have the evidence or faith needed to make the jump from "the world existed before me" to "this means the Unseen must also exist."

Serinity said:
As for believing in a Creator, reflect and ponder on creation. Read Qur'an.

I have read a translation of he Qur'an, and am about to begin a different translation with better historical explanations and context. Hopefully I find it beneficial.

Serinity said:
I won't go about how and why I believe in the Creator, but I will say this: I believe in Allah, and I know of His existence by His signs in creation.

you can not physically see intelligence, but you know intelligence exists. Because there are indications to its existence. How do you know that I am a real human being, and not a robot? Have you ever seen me? No. How do you know I have intelligence? have you seen my intelligence?[/QUOTE]

You're right, I can't physically see intelligence, but I can see intelligence in action through people using it, or by some (definitely not all) choices I make. And you're right, I can't know for sure you are a human, maybe you are just a very well developed chat bot or robot. I find this doubtful, unless, were it the case, your programming uitilized Watson for communication. That said, given the lack of prevalence of artifical intelligence, and none passing the Turing test, I feel justified in safely assuming you are a human.

Serinity said:
we know Allah exists, not because we see Him, because we don't, but because we recognize His signs in creation.

And while I don't have evidence that there isn't a Creator behind the functions and laws of the universe, the natural processes that led to life and reality as it currently exists, but I also haven't seen any such evidence suggesting there is. This lack of objective evidence is, I would say, the crux of my problem.

Serinity · Jul 25, 2016

Don't worry, little at a time.

Whosoever strives in Allah's Cause and in His way, and strives to be guided, Allah :swt: will guide you, as long as you seek it.

Allahu alam.

muslimah_B · Jul 25, 2016

Maybe you would do better with reading the tasfeer along with the Quran, it may help you to understand things better

You can read by tasfeer ibn Kathir on a app called "Quran tasfeer pro"
Or
Illuminating discourses on the Noble Quran tasfeer
Or
Maariful Quran by Mufti Mohhamed Shafi

All of these i use in my courses and are recommended reading material for my Quran classes

MisterK · Jul 26, 2016

muslimah_B said:
oh i apologise i thought you meant literal symbols like the cross and images of Jesus p.b.u.h (peace be upon him)
In Islam the stories mentioned in the Quran are all historical facts, as in they did happen and they are being retold to us for a specific reason either to warn us from committing certain actions/sins, or to remind us of the signs of Allahs immense power, certain stories are repeated in the Quran to set in stone the meaning/message Allah is trying to get through to us, i.e Moses p.b.u.h (peace be upon him) struggles with Pharaoh are mentioned numerous times to remind us of what happens to those who oppress people and claim Allah to not be God astagfirllah (May Allah forgive me) but they (pharaoh) thought he was, to remind us of who had such a arrogant nature, and if we was to show signs of arrogance then we would be following the footsteps of pharaoh & shaytan (devil) but it also teaches us that through patience and prayer and sincerity Allahs help will come & Allah is the one and only God of everything, as Moses p.b.u.h (peace be upon him) went through such a testing trial from birth, right through to him p.b.u.h being a man, through the trials with Pharaoh he was patient, still called people to Allah, never gave up faith, even though Pharaoh was such a "scary & powerful" enemy, it shows that we should put trust in Allah and believe that His help will always come, so this story is repeated relating to each different topic.

so yes all stories In the Quran are truth, all prophets/ messengers mentioned are fact and all their stories actually happened.

Hmm... then I think this will be another point of conflict for me. For example, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a global flood as described in scripture, no evidence of the Jews roaming the desert for 40 years, and so on. The lack of evidence supporting a literal view of the Bible is one of the thing that drove me away from it.

muslimah_B said:
sooooo close but yet so far in sha Allah (God willing you) will get there, just try to have a open mind when your learning about islam not your logical mind

I consider the two one and the same. I am open minded, but generally I need evidence to support a new view or change an existing one. This seeking is about trying, somehow, to find evidence to change my mind.

muslimah_B said:
ok in Islam death is just the beginning . so we know there will be a judgement day right ? but not WHEN, so when somebody dies, as a muslim they are buried as quick as possible, and once they are buried and everyone leaves the cemetery, two angels will question them and depending on their answers is what their resting place will be like

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]It was narrated that al-Bara’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for the funeral of a man from among the Ansaar. We came to the grave and when (the deceased) was placed in the lahd, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and we sat around him, as if there were birds on our heads (i.e., quiet and still). In his hand he had a stick with which he was scratching the ground. Then he raised his head and said, “Seek refuge with Allaah from the torment of the grave”, two or three times. Then he said, “When the believing slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with white faces like the sun, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. They bring with them shrouds from Paradise and perfumes from Paradise. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O good soul, come forth to forgiveness from Allaah and His pleasure.’ Then it comes out easily like a drop of water from the the mouth of a waterskin. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume, and there comes from it a fragrance like the finest musk on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this good soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the best names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is opened, and (the soul) is welcomed and accompanied to the next heaven by those who are closest to Allaah, until they reach the seventh heaven. Then Allaah says: ‘Record the book of My slave in ‘Illiyoon in the seventh heaven, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again.’ So his soul is returned to his body and there come to him two angels who make him sit up and they say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He says, ‘Allaah.’ They say, ‘What is your religion?’ He says, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They say, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He says, ‘He is the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ They say, ‘What did you do?’ He says, ‘I read the Book of Allaah and I believed in it.’ Then a voice calls out from heaven, ‘My slave has spoken the truth, so prepare for him a bed from Paradise and clothe him from Paradise, and open for him a gate to Paradise.’ Then there comes to him some of its fragrance, and his grave is made wide, as far as he can see. Then there comes to him a man with a handsome face and handsome clothes, and a good fragrance, who says, ‘Receive the glad tidings that will bring you joy this day.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which brings glad tidings.’ He says, ‘I am your righteous deeds.’ He says, ‘O Lord, hasten the Hour so that I may return to my family and my wealth.’ But when the disbelieving slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with black faces, bringing sackcloth, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O evil soul, come forth to the wrath of Allaah and His anger.’ Then his soul disperses inside his body, then comes out cutting the veins and nerves, like a skewer passing through wet wool. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that sackcloth, and there comes from it a stench like the foulest stench of a dead body on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this evil soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the worst names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is not opened.” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited (interpretation of the meaning): [/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light]“for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle”[/FONT][FONT=wf_segoe-ui_light][al-A’raaf 7:40][/FONT]

The idea of life after death is a nice one, and one held in some form or another by most people on the planet. I would love to believe it were true, I would love to believe I'll get to see my loved ones again, especially as I grow older and lose more and more people. It is a much more comforting thought, that we'll be reunited.

muslimah_B said:
oh ok sorry lol, but yet balance is needed in everything in life especially as a muslim, so we should be happy and enjoy life, but not so happy that we forget the realities of life such as death, we shouldn't be extreme in our religion,

[FONT=pt_sans]Prophet (PBUH) once asked one of His companion Abdullah ibn ‘Amr” R.A[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]“Have I heard right that you fast everyday and stand in prayer all night?[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]Abdullah replied:[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]“Yes, O Messenger of God”[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]The Prophet (PBUH) said:“Do not do that. Fast, as well as, eat and drink. Stand in prayer, as well as, sleep. This is because your body has a right upon you, your eyes have a right upon you, your wife has a right upon you, and your guest has a right upon you.” (Bukhari)[/FONT][FONT=pt_sans]

“O children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: Eat and drink but waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters. Say: ‘who hath forbidden the beautiful gifts of Allah which He hath produced for His servants and the things clean and pure (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.” (7:31-32)

[/FONT]“Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but aim to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and the nights.” Saheeh Bukhari 1:2:38

It is nice seeing a religion incorporate messages of anti-extremism, especially given that, as we all know, humans in general have a habit of taking things too far, all too often.

muslimah_B said:
yes just keep working on it bit by bit, take slow steps, but whatever you do just keep moving forward, i won't send you any videos on this topic just yet, il wait until you finish the others, i don't want to suddenly overwhelm you with information overload lol, so we can take each topic your finding hard one by one and try and work through them individually, instead of loads of different subjects all at once, it can be quite daunting.

Starting tomorrow I'll have ample free time for a few weeks, so I plan to continue my reading and finish the books I've started, get through a more education translation of the Qur'an, and finally catch up on all the videos. Sorry it's taken so long to view them, when you were kind enough to compile them for me in the first place.

muslimah_B said:
lol good way to avoid the back and forth, but unfortunately for this topic its the main issue so it will have to be discussed hopefully with as little back and forth as possible

True, true, however, given as I am searching, I don't consider this a debate or formal argument, more a matter of back-and-forth regarding differing views and ways to try and change mine. So even if less-than-minimal back-and-forth, it is for a different reason than such a thing usually happens over.

muslimah_B said:
yes jinns are a very interesting topic to study, it does branch out into different sub-topics such as, possession, black magic, magic, hauntings, the different types,

so once you watch all the other videos, then we can go over the doubts you still have and in sha Allah move forward from there, i don't want to keep jumping topics without you actually understanding it properly,
so please do let me know and we will go over one topic at a time to make it easier for you

Back to my issue with the Unseen, I don't really believe in magic, possession, or hauntings and the like. Just like with God and such, I used to, so it'd be more a reversion than conversion on this matter.

muslimah_B said:
(sorry for my late response but i suffer from severe migraines and had a rather bad migraine attack over the last few days)

No worries there. I hope you're feeling better, and that any future ones are few and far between, if they happen at all.

All that said, I find it odd that I'm trying so hard to find faith in something that I have such a hard time believing in, that seems to run counter to much of my current world view. Yet, when I think about just giving up and stopping the search, I actually start feeling bad about considering that quitting, sometimes with actual physical discomfort. And naturally, my current world-view attributes it to, basically, a sort of negative placebo effect.

MisterK · Jul 26, 2016

muslimah_B said:
Maybe you would do better with reading the tasfeer along with the Quran, it may help you to understand things better

You can read by tasfeer ibn Kathir on a app called "Quran tasfeer pro"
Or
Illuminating discourses on the Noble Quran tasfeer
Or
Maariful Quran by Mufti Mohhamed Shafi

All of these i use in my courses and are recommended reading material for my Quran classes

Thanks, I may look into them, but I think I'll start with the different translation I have from my first for my re-read of the Qur'an. The first one I read had around 450 pages, this new one I have has over a thousand pages, and goes much more in-depth in the material.

Finding Iman?

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