First Corrupted Verse

[AntiKarateKid]

You must be joking, of course thy are criteria and you are asking us to make a choice.

Enough. I gave you 2 examples of 2 different books and you refuse to choose. I admit I'm not surprised as who in their right mind would choose book A? I'm sure you noticed already coincides with your Bible and that is why you continue to beat around the bush, lest you betray yourself.


GRACESEEKER

I just read your response. But I you responded while believing book A to be the Bible. If both books were the Bible, which version do you think would be more credible?

 

[Hugo]

I can listen to JUST 10 verses from suret Al'momnoon and know exactly my purpose here on earth and never tire to listen and be moved again and again, to ten verses or the entire Quran.. Where as your Shepard poem is no different or superior to anon's poem about death...

Why don't you copy in the verses so we can all share with you its meaning and power. But Psalm 23 has and still does move me and millions of others again and again. You may say its about death but its really about hope and confidence in God in what is often the worst of times, hope for you and hope for those you love.

This is not now about which is better than the other its about what these words are saying and how they touch our hearts, experiences and lives.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Why don't you copy in the verses so we can all share with you its meaning and power. But Psalm 23 has and still does move me and millions of others again and again. You may say its about death but its really about hope and confidence in God in what is often the worst of times, hope for you and hope for those you love.

This is not now about which is better than the other its about what these words are saying and how they touch our hearts, experiences and lives.

Psalm 23, if jumbled up with a random assortment of other poems or stories like it would have no greater effect and is in no way more notable.

As opposed to the Quranic surahs which no person has been able to mirror.

 

[Hugo]

Enough. I gave you 2 examples of 2 different books and you refuse to choose. I admit I'm not surprised as who in their right mind would choose book A? I'm sure you noticed already coincides with your Bible and that is why you continue to beat around the bush, lest you betray yourself.

We don't refuse, we cannot because you are asking us to chose without examining the content and at least one factor that has no relevance. Goethe is often quoted in this board but he offered a similar test idea but with a string of peals. He simply asked how many you need to see before making a choice to hand over the money but you are not even going that far, you cannot even allow us to look at the pearls.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Enough. I gave you 2 examples of 2 different books and you refuse to choose. I admit I'm not surprised as who in their right mind would choose book A? I'm sure you noticed already coincides with your Bible and that is why you continue to beat around the bush, lest you betray yourself.


GRACESEEKER

I just read your response. But I you responded while believing book A to be the Bible. If both books were the Bible, which version do you think would be more credible?

I always question the authenticity of the witness of any person who tells me that God has spoken to them. In doing so, I look for other clues and agreement with the rest of what I've come to understand as God's message. You've left those things out of your list, so it's not possible to answer the question beyond the answer I have already given.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

We don't refuse, we cannot because you are asking us to chose without examining the content and at least one factor that has no relevance. Goethe is often quoted in this board but he offered a similar test idea but with a string of peals. He simply asked how many you need to see before making a choice to hand over the money but you are not even going that far, you cannot even allow us to look at the pearls.

If both books were the Bible, which version would be more credible?

 

[Hugo]

Psalm 23, if jumbled up with a random assortment of other poems or stories like it would have no greater effect and is in no way more notable.

As opposed to the Quranic surahs which no person has been able to mirror.

Give us an example then?

Psalm 23 is known and loved all over the world in many thousands of languages and has been for 2,500 years. It is exceptional as a poem and has a power to help and encouraged way beyond that. If you cannot open you heart to see what Prophet David wrote then you are the loser.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Psalm 23, if jumbled up with a random assortment of other poems or stories like it would have no greater effect and is in no way more notable.

As opposed to the Quranic surahs which no person has been able to mirror.

What are you talking about? It is already mixed in with 150 Psalms, that isn't random and assorted enough for you?

 

[Hugo]

If both books were the Bible, which version would be more credible?

You can ask which do I prefer but both are credible. A Qu'ran is English, is that not credible, I should not trust it in any way? What is your point?

 

[جوري]

Why don't you copy in the verses so we can all share with you its meaning and power. But Psalm 23 has and still does move me and millions of others again and again. You may say its about death but its really about hope and confidence in God in what is often the worst of times, hope for you and hope for those you love.

This is not now about which is better than the other its about what these words are saying and how they touch our hearts, experiences and lives.

As much as I'd love to flatter you Huge with a reply, I really don't have that much interest...

The Quran is there for those who wish to read it, and in fact has been subjected to all kinds of studies through the centuries and still continues to be the reason many find their path to God in spite of the vigorous effort of folks like you or 'ibn warraq'

[17:81] And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth

Hope in death is a great thing.. I suppose that is why folks subscribe to a religion to begin with?
I'd not want to go to my grave a christian though even with the lovely peaceful thought that god died after having eaten my sins.

I have griped (insha'Allah and wal7mdlilah) the trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks.. I do hope that resonates with you, so you wouldn't waste so much of your time and effort.

 

[Hugo]

As much as I'd love to flatter you Huge with a reply, I really don't have that much interest...

The Quran is there for those who wish to read it, and in fact has been subjected to all kinds of studies through the centuries and still continues to be the reason many find their path to God in spite of the vigorous effort of folks like you or 'ibn warraq'

[17:81] And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth

Hope in death is a great thing.. I suppose that is why folks subscribe to a religion to begin with?
I'd not want to go to my grave a christian though even with the lovely peaceful thought that god died after having eaten my sins.

I have griped (insha'Allah and wal7mdlilah) the trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks.. I do hope that resonates with you, so you wouldn't waste so much of your time and effort.

Yes, it does resonate have you read Proverbs 18:10 (NIV). "The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe". So we can reach out to God and in Psalm 18:35 (Amplified Bible) "You have also given me the shield of Your salvation, and Your right hand has held me up; Your gentleness and condescension have made me great." So even if sometimes we cannot hold on to God He will hold on to us.

Every Blessing

 

[Hugo]

You know very well what kind of reading I mean! reading anti-islamic sites

Ah, I didn't know, is this an anti-Islamic web site?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

What are you talking about? It is already mixed in with 150 Psalms, that isn't random and assorted enough for you?

I am saying a person could write some poems along the same lines and mix it up with that psalm and it most probably will not stick out. Its imitable.

 

[جوري]

Yes, it does resonate have you read Proverbs 18:10 (NIV). "The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe". So we can reach out to God and in Psalm 18:35 (Amplified Bible) "You have also given me the shield of Your salvation, and Your right hand has held me up; Your gentleness and condescension have made me great." So even if sometimes we cannot hold on to God He will hold on to us.

Every Blessing

I have attended catholic schools.. yes I have read the bible..
& I have made my informed choice.
my salvation is through God's mercy and walking the straight path of Abraham the upright, not through the death of god or his self-immolation for my sins...

on this fork we part ways!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

They don't agree with you and ibn warraq. I know.. But the painstaking task of the hafsah manuscript written in entirety during the prophet's life, along with two witnesses to every verse written down in the four original Qurans which were sent out with a hafith to each town, to teach it in its original queryshi dialect ensured its preservation to the T to how it was revealed.

I have a few stories and poems written by my in several diaries here and there. I have written them all out on the computer printed and compiled them into one and destroyed the originals.. for no other reason other than not wanting loads of dispersed papers. I have also compiled them in the order of events for the interest of my familt and friends... I have my works and poems from my under grad. Some during my trip to England, some during grad school. Who is to say that if I didn't compile them in the style that I like that someone might read the England yrs before the under grad yrs, and be slightly confused..
does that mean what is written on paper differs from what I have on the computer.. not at all.. but in order for proper reservation of my work, I destroyed the extra stuff...

There is really nothing here other than straw men for you to hang on too, and sadly they too fail you as everyone can see through the transperancy of your charade....

You are talking about the second collection not the first one and as far as I know none of the metropolitan Qu'ran's still exists. You can throw away you notes if you wish but authors without computers never did that so your analogy is weak

 

[جوري]

Original manuscripts do indeed exist, and purchasing the suggested reading will not only take care of your doubts but will show you pictures of original manuscripts photographed with permission.

I am tired of repeating myself, further and again, you wouldn't know anything at all about the collection of the Quran were it not for Islamic sources so why should anyone accept your secondary opinion on the subject?.. NO orientalists were there at the time to give their views of the process, their delusions are no more correct than about us worshiping the moon God.. it is nothing more than the product of irrational hatred.

I have said all that needed on the subject matter, and for the Muslims on board. I do in fact recommend purchasing Dr. Al'Azami's book of Quranic text from revelation compilation. for not only is his research well done, but he also delves in depth about the corruptions of the bible and a step by step compartive study of the pros...

 

[AntiKarateKid]

You are talking about the second collection not the first one and as far as I know none of the metropolitan Qu'ran's still exists. You can throw away you notes if you wish but authors without computers never did that so your analogy is weak

Don't measure the Quran with your Biblical methods.

Aside from the fact that there are indeed original copies in existence, you forget a very very important fact.

People have memorized the Quran by heart since its revelation. Thousands upon thousands of them. There was no variance in their recitations.

 

[Hugo]

Don't measure the Quran with your Biblical methods.

Aside from the fact that there are indeed original copies in existence, you forget a very very important fact.

People have memorized the Quran by heart since its revelation. Thousands upon thousands of them. There was no variance in their recitations.

Well tell me where an original copy exist that was checked by prophet Mohammed?

Have you never heard of the qurra and there are at least 7 variant readings: Nafi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Amir, Abu Amr etc. Indeed there was nothing like a common reading until Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Mujahid, Baghda linguist fixed a single system of consonants and placed limits on the variation on vowel sounds.

May I ask you what real difference does all this make - surely the Qu'ran has content, a message so why all the fuss about what cannot be proved. Will the message of the Qu'ran you have in your hand suddenly become worthless if you cannot trace the text back to the tiniest dot?

 

[جوري]

Yes each sura that was taken down was checked by the prophet as well he dictated the order of the ayas, for instance the last verse ever revealed went into the 2nd chapter with his authoritative direction as is with every verse and as stated a complete unbound copy was trusted to hafsah his wife ...

there are no 'variant readings' there are dialects that differ which were all unified to the queryishi dialect which is the most proper Arabic, and with each copy sent there was a hafith as well to teach people the proper pronunciation..

the word سنة for instance if not properly taught can be read as sunnah or sana
one means tradition the other means year or period of time, both written the same way both found in the quran. Thus the unified style and the different hafiths distributed to teach wasn't because of alleged different reading but to properly teach how it should be read and memorized..
since you know nothing of the Quran or Arabic (my mother tongue) I'd refrain from disseminating wrong info on an Islamic board of all places.. because not only will you be found out but humiliated publicly for frank ignorance!

 

[Uthman]

This thread went off-topic a very long time ago and all useful discussion about the original topic of this thread appears to have been exhausted.

A new thread has been created where the present discussion can continue here.

:threadclo