Florida Church to HOld Qur'an Burning!

[Ramadhan]

Well, given that Dove Church are planning their Qu'ran burning day on 9/11, the anniversary of the attack on the Twin Towers, it may be that the 'first fire' is the perceived attack of Muslim terrorists on the non-Muslim world. Whether rightly or wrongly, we have to accept that that's how many people perceive it - even now, after all these years. It will take a long time for that perception to disappear, if ever it does completely ...

I am glad you are recognizing this fact:
That christians think the 9/11 was a muslim attack, and hence are out for revenge to the extent that two muslim countries were invaded and occupied and a million civilians killed in the process.
(yeah, let's give our both of our cheeks, shall we?).

Just when I was ready to give you the prop, you turned around and said this:

However, I do not know whether that's what Joel Hunter is talking about, or whether he perceives the 'first fire' to be the Qu'ran burning, and the 'second fire' - which he is trying to preempt and prevent - any retaliation from some Muslims.

English is not even my second language or third, but do you really believe what you just wrote in that sentence?

This is what was written in the article:

“It sounds like the proposed Quran burning is rooted in revenge,” said NAE President Leith Anderson

And then later in the article:

Orlando-based Pastor Joel Hunter of Northland, A Church Distributed, who is a member of the NAE Board of Directors, commented, “We have to recognize that fighting fire with fire only builds a bigger fire.”

It is quite clear to anyone (who's honest with themselves) that NAE regards the bible burning as just an exercise in revenge by some church against muslims, and not as an inherently wrong and evil action in itself.

Either view is possible, and I cannot say which view Joel Hunter holds. We would have to ask him that question directly.

you do that.

Either way, can you see and perhaps even respect his intentions to try and prevent any further rift between the Muslim and non-Muslim communities, and a desire to counteract the hatred and animosity which seems to come from Dove Church?
I hope you do, because that is the important part of the article I posted, as far as I am concerned: how to deal with hate-mongers and how to overcome hatred and anger with kindness and love.

I don't know whats his intentions are. I do, however, respect anyone who genuinely tries to create peace.

Perhaps the important question is not "Who started it?" (Isn't that what little children say? 'It wasn't me! S/he started it!!') ... but "How can we nip it in the bud, before it gets out of hand?"

Ugh... again, you are playing with words here to insinuate things.
No one as far as I know (at least in this thread, and certainly not me) has done what you just said in the sentence above.
I was merely pointing out the fact (in the article that you yourself quoted) that a director of NAE did exactly what you asked people not to do.

Prior to this, I had no idea who NAE was, but from the article it seems NAE confirming muslims suspicions that American christians do indeed regard 9/11 as Islam attack against christians.

 

[Snowflake]

Holy Quran 3:186 Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.

And patient muslims are not! Even when that is what Allah is telling us to be ^ when we don't like what we hear. It's so easy to see from the past that the more the muslims react the more they look for new ways to insult islam. Don't you get it? That IS their enjoyment. Stop giving it to them. Raise your hands and pray for the wrath of Allah to fall upon His enemies. Surely a prayer is more dear to Allah than protesting to the Hell dwellers.

JazakAllah for sharing this verse. May Allah give us patience, and ask for His help in all matters instead of crying to the hell fodder.

 

[جوري]

Well, given that Dove Church are planning their Qu'ran burning day on 9/11, the anniversary of the attack on the Twin Towers, it may be that the 'first fire' is the perceived attack of Muslim terrorists on the non-Muslim world. Whether rightly or wrongly, we have to accept that that's how many people perceive it - even now, after all these years. It will take a long time for that perception to disappear, if ever it does completely ...

Have to second Br. Naidamar's sentiment above and question, isn't your religion all about love and turning the other cheek-- that is if I am actually to accept the ailing premise that, they are upset about a 'terrorist attack' from "muslims' who took over planes with plastic knives and whose passports survived to allude to their identity.. be that as it may--your religion has a difficult time reconciling much of its written words with reality

in fact it always rears its ugly crusade like roots and love of burning books that negate its contradictions!
not to worry though all the more incentive for those who haven't memorized the Quran to complete memorizing it insha'Allah-- burning books is the way of the ignorant, learning them and living by them is the way of the wise!

all the best

 

[Woodrow]

Out of fairness. I think it needs to be clarified the Dove Church is not part of any Christian denomination. While some Christians may agree with them, they are not a recognized religion and are practicing theTerry Jones concept of Christianity.

I would not be surprised if it turns out Terry Jones does not even believe in God(swt) and founded this group as an income for himself. I have read that they are in danger of loosing their tax exemption status as a religious institution and Terry is in financial trouble.

Consider the possibility this is one man trying to stir up interest and raise his finances through donations from people who agree with his radical ideas. This is not the first time Terry has become quite radical and used hate to raise money.

A google search of "Terry Jones, Gainesville, Florida, financial problems" is quite interesting. Or "Dove Church, Gainesville, Florida Legal/financial problems"

We should not dignify him by connecting him to any religion. He is a scoundrel and con-man playing upon the gullibility of prejuciced, bigoted people. This is not the first time he has used hate. In the past his target was Homosexuals. But after Gainesville elected a gay mayor he had to change his target.

With Terry's track record this may be the incentive for Gainesville to elect a Muslim mayor next election.

The guy is an idiot and the only bigger idiots are those who donate money to him.

Please let us refrain from giving him the name of any religion. He would use the beliefs of any religion if he could find a way to make money from it.

Scum like this need to be called scum and not given any other name.

In the realm of full disclosure in advertising he should have KKK attached to his church name." Dove, KKK affiliate"

Check this link:

 

[glo]

Brother naidamar, I cannot speak for all Christians and I am not going to try.
It seems that you are asking me to explain or even defend the views of others, which I have neither insight into or might not even agree with myself.

I can only ever tell you about my own understanding of my faith, and how I try to live by it. Anything else is beyond my ability.
I cannot speak for Dove Church or Joel Hunter or the other 2 Billion Christians on this planet.

I am sure the majority of people consider 9/11 an attack of Muslims on the non-Muslim world, and you may be right that some are out for revenge for it even now. Dove Church may well be amongst them.

But I am also trying to tell you that there are many, many people who are speaking out and taking action against these kinds of things. Me and others have posted examples in this thread.
I completely agree with Woodrow's recommendation not to judge a whole religion by the actions of one out-of-control so-called church ...

I think it needs to be clarified the Dove Church is not part of any Christian denomination. While some Christians may agree with them, they are not a recognized religion and are practicing theTerry Jones concept of Christianity.

We should not dignify him by connecting him to any religion.

I don't know whats his intentions are. I do, however, respect anyone who genuinely tries to create peace.

Amen to that.

How do you feel about the idea of Muslims and non-Muslims coming together to share verses and teachings from their holy books with each other, exploring differences as well as seeking common ground?

 

[Woodrow]

How do you feel about the idea of Muslims and non-Muslims coming together to share verses and teachings from their holy books with each other, exploring differences as well as seeking common ground?[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

On the surface that sounds wonderful. But, the end result would probably result in unforseen problems.

A simpler step would have better results. Both Muslims and non-Muslims need to speak out against this outrage. However, since we both are affected differently separate actions would have better results. We may be facing a common enemy, but we are actually fighting separate battles. To mix the 2 battles can lead to misunderstandings and confusion.

This would be the time for Christian churches to make an effort within their perspective churches to denounce the actions of people like Terry Jones and disclaim any association with churches like Dove. It would be a clear message that the people of Dove are not Christian and their actions are not tolerated. The Christian community needs to fight the battle of showing they do not see the Dove church as Christian and uphold their beliefs of Christianity.

The Imams of the Masjids need to spread the word that we have a right to be offended by those who public ally defile that which is sacred to us and that we need to speak out to the offenders we know to be the offenders and not accuse others by what we see as association. This has to be seen as the act of one group and that group only should be the target of our anger and we need to be certain we use our anger in a constructive manner and not as being simply a return of hate for hate. We need to support the local Masjids in the Gainesville area. Support Muslims living in the region even to the point of financial assistance so that they can live in the region with a highly visible profile. Become active in groups such as this:
http://unitethemuslims.com/?tag=gainesville-fl
Make the presence of Muslims in Gainesville both noticeable and peaceful. Help the Muslims in Gainesville to feel both safe and proud to be seen and recognized as Muslims. Make the presence of Muslims known and show by our words and actions we are peaceful people and do not stoop to copying the actions of idiots.

Now on a combined effort, this is done best on the local government level, swamp the local government with petitions from both Muslims and non-Muslims. File civil actions suits against the Dove church pointing out they are inciting hatred of a minority. Get the IRS to investigate the tax exempt status of the Church as this does not seem to be a religious action, but a political comment and political organizations are not allowed tax exemption as a house of worship.

We both need to fight the same enemy, but we each need to do so ourselves as the enemy is attacking each of us in different ways. Two separate battles require 2 separate armies.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Woodrow, given that this guy attacks both muslims and homosexuals this could be a very very rare case of muslims and homosexuals in some kind of united effort :shade: Never thought I'd see those two groups on the same side.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, given that this guy attacks both muslims and homosexuals this could be a very very rare case of muslims and homosexuals in some kind of united effort :shade: Never thought I'd see those two groups on the same side.

Hi Pygoscelis,

I think everybody he has offended needs to speak out. Each for their own reason and not attempt to combine or mix the reasons.

I suspect that after he stops getting donations for his current fiasco he will find another target to add to the list. Quite likely Atheists are on his list. If this nutter is like others I've seen he has a very long list and will go after each as he receives donations to fight his agenda. I am almost certain his list of groups he hates reads very similar to this and in this order:

1. Honosexuals

2. Muslims

3. Jews

4. Catholics

5. Atheists

6. Protestants

7. Non-white

8. All immigrants (except for his ancestors)

9. Educators

10. The poor (Yes the poor, as he will see them as receiving just punishment for living evil lives, plus he will by this stage to have collected enough in donations to be in the wealthy class)

 

[glo]

I am almost certain his list of groups he hates reads very similar to this and in this order:

1. Homosexuals
2. Muslims
3. Jews
4. Catholics
5. Atheists
6. Protestants
7. Non-white
8. All immigrants (except for his ancestors)
9. Educators
10. The poor (Yes the poor, as he will see them as receiving just punishment for living evil lives, plus he will by this stage to have collected enough in donations to be in the wealthy class)

You are kidding!
That means he has taken on all of us ... :uuh:

I think everybody he has offended needs to speak out. Each for their own reason and not attempt to combine or mix the reasons.

I agree to some extend that each of these groups should fight for their own cause and their own reasons.

But I also think there is a place to lay aside our differences and to stand together, and to show the world and Terry Jones and his Dove Church that we will not be divided in our common goal for justice, peace and tolerance.

 

[north_malaysian]

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak Saturday quoted from the Quran to urge fellow Muslims not to insult people of other faiths, after residents of a Muslim-majority area, protesting re-location of a Hindu temple to their locality, carried cow heads in a rally Friday.

source

Erm... the cow heads protest were done by Malay Nationalists not by Islamists. In fact many Muslims are against the protest as they were degrading halal-slaughtered cow heads..

 

[north_malaysian]

Hi Pygoscelis,

I think everybody he has offended needs to speak out. Each for their own reason and not attempt to combine or mix the reasons.

I suspect that after he stops getting donations for his current fiasco he will find another target to add to the list. Quite likely Atheists are on his list. If this nutter is like others I've seen he has a very long list and will go after each as he receives donations to fight his agenda. I am almost certain his list of groups he hates reads very similar to this and in this order:

1. Honosexuals

2. Muslims

3. Jews

4. Catholics

5. Atheists

6. Protestants

7. Non-white

8. All immigrants (except for his ancestors)

9. Educators

10. The poor (Yes the poor, as he will see them as receiving just punishment for living evil lives, plus he will by this stage to have collected enough in donations to be in the wealthy class)

Educators? No wonder they're really dumb.... the poors? I believe that they wont get lots of converts then...

 

[tw009]

Exactly! This is what I was talking about in my previous post #39. You said it better!

This whole thing remind me of what happened few months ago when they were trying to ban minarets in Switzerland and at the end we got one of those who made the decision as new brother to us that reverted to Islam. Isn't that amazing? SubhanAllah this religion is amazing ! The more haters try to attack it, the more people like it!

The same thing happened in 9/11!

SubhanAllah!
reminds me of this verse : " But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners." [8:30]

 

[Muslimeen]

How I wish we had a Khalifa, someone who could rally Islamic troops from around the world, across all borders. Come Mahdi, we need you.

 

[Woodrow]

What I find amazing is the guy heads a relativity small group in a small town and he has gained world wide attention. Legitimate causes for constructive uses seldom get even a single paragraph on the back page of a small newspaper.

Not long ago say 50 years ago. This nutter would not have had enough mention to attrack the attention of more than a handful of people and he would have ended in obscurity unknown and with no attention.

The guy wants and needs attention for one purpose and one pur[pose only. To get money from donations to pay his bills.

 

[Woodrow]

You are kidding!
That means he has taken on all of us ... :uuh:

Those nutters actually do believe only themselves and their small group of followers are the only people who follow god (their god) and that anybody who does not agree with them is doomed. They actully do show that much hate against all people. Most of the time they usually get no attention and simply fade away after a short period of time. But on occasion they do something that gets attention.

Jim Jones and his suicide cult

David Koresh and his Branch Davidians (although in this case the government intervention was worse than the group)

The Comet guy in California (He would have gone un noticed if it had not been necessary to clean up the bodies, of his followers who committed suicide to ride on Haley's comet)

 

[Pygoscelis]

How I wish we had a Khalifa, someone who could rally Islamic troops from around the world, across all borders. Come Mahdi, we need you.

You want to rally troops over this? Way to confirm this guy's image of Islam.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We want a khilafa regardless of whether an attack is made or not and it won't change for anybody!

 

[joedawun]

What, in your opinion, could a Khalifa do in this situation? How could it counter the wrongful and hateful views of Islam displayed by this nutter and his twisted handful of followers in Gainesville, FL?

 

[Woodrow]

What, in your opinion, could a Khalifa do in this situation? How could it counter the wrongful and hateful views of Islam displayed by this nutter and his twisted handful of followers in Gainesville, FL?

It is a very hypothetical question.

Many if not most Muslims (Myself included) believe that the next Kalifah will only come with the arrival of the Mahdi and the return of Jesus(PBUH).

In which case this situation would be non-existant.

 

[north_malaysian]

It is a very hypothetical question.

Many if not most Muslims (Myself included) believe that the next Kalifah will only come with the arrival of the Mahdi and the return of Jesus(PBUH).

In which case this situation would be non-existant.

Me too... there would be no Caliph before Al Mahdi as Muslims are not united at all..