Following a religion without believing in God

[Argamemnon]

Is it deemed better to at least follow the prinicples of a religion, even without believing in God? Or would that be pointless?

It is better if they follow certain principles of a religion, even if they don't believe in it, because this will benefit society as a whole. However, they will be held accountable for their disbelief in the Hereafter and punished by God. They will be among the losers.

 

[alcurad]

don't most 'modern' laws insure that people follow the most basic tenants of the major religions-you shall not steal etc- in the first place though?

 

[malayloveislam]

Assalamualaikum warahmatullah,

I have heard from a Buddhist forum that Buddhists do not believe in God, particularly those from Theravada school. They are comparing Muslims with Buddhists, they said Buddhists only believing in "the law of nature". I think that they resemble Atheists in the term of Aqeedah but they have morality principles.

Quoting what they had said, which are translated:

1. God only exist in the mind of those who had been taught to believe it

2. The idea about God arise because human feel something to depend from tribulation (Thuk, Samsara).

 

[Trumble]

So spare me the "If I do what I percieve as good, i will get into heaven," stuff. It ill befits someone wiht your post count to be arguing such a ludicrous and myopic point.

You seem to be having severe comprehension difficulties. I was not referring to myself, I was suggesting a hypothetical situation as is common in philosophical argument. If you insist on concrete examples I would float people like Gandhi or Mother Teresa although neither, of course, would have made any such claims about themselves.

So, please, 'spare me' your attitude, read what I actually wrote, and try making some attempt to make a sensible response to the point I raised rather than spouting irrelevant rubbish.

Assalamualaikum warahmatullah,

I have heard from a Buddhist forum that Buddhists do not believe in God, particularly those from Theravada school. They are comparing Muslims with Buddhists, they said Buddhists only believing in "the law of nature". I think that they resemble Atheists in the term of Aqeedah but they have morality principles.

No Buddhists believe in God, as Christians and muslims understand God to be. Some believe in gods and spirits of various sorts, but the essential distinction is that such gods are subject to the same inevitable process of cause and effect as are humans. The timescales may be different but such gods become, exist, and eventually cease to exist only to reborn as maybe a god, maybe something else. In Buddhist myth, the gods too were present to witness and celebrate the Buddha's Enlightenment.

Most Buddhists actually have 'morality principles' very similar to most muslims. As do many atheists.. no belief in God is required. That position can be accepted by reasonable theists even if they believe 'moral principles' are actually a creation of God.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I really do have trouble with this, at least one way round. If someone were to live the perfect moral, selfless life, dedicated to helping others I find the idea that they would fail pass muster to get into Heaven just because they didn't have 'correct belief' utterly ludicrous.

Short term memory eh Trumble? You clearly stated your views in your post, especially at the last part when you found it "ludicrous." Come now, who really has the comprehension problem?

 

[Tornado]

AntiKarateKid, you misunderstood. He's not talking about himself,

I really do have trouble with this, at least one way round. If someone were to live the perfect moral, selfless life, dedicated to helping others I find the idea that they would fail pass muster to get into Heaven just because they didn't have 'correct belief' utterly ludicrous.

Anyways, if you follow a religion and don't believe in god, you can pick and choose parts of religion you like. You can judge messages without having to just accept them.
I agree with Trumble as well. It's one of the reasons I don't have a religion.

 

[aamirsaab]

One can act religiously without believing in God so I guess the answer is yes.

I really do have trouble with this, at least one way round. If someone were to live the perfect moral, selfless life, dedicated to helping others I find the idea that they would fail pass muster to get into Heaven just because they didn't have 'correct belief' utterly ludicrous

In Islam it is all down to God's will in relation to who enters Paradise and who does not. There is no guarantee or golden ticket into Heaven in Islam.

 

[Tornado]

One can act religiously without believing in God so I guess the answer is yes.


In Islam it is all down to God's will in relation to who enters Paradise and who does not. There is no guarantee or golden ticket into Heaven in Islam.

What would be your virdict, aamirsaab, of Trumble's example?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

AntiKarateKid, you misunderstood. He's not talking about himself,



Anyways, if you follow a religion and don't believe in god, you can pick and choose parts of religion you like. You can judge messages without having to just accept them.
I agree with Trumble as well. It's one of the reasons I don't have a religion.

The problem again is what you actually consider "good". Many atheists consider same sex marriage "good." But if the Torah, Bible and Quran are anything to go by, Allah doesnt deem it good.

Picking and choosing morals based on your preferences will net you trouble. Actively shunning Islam's morals will net you hell because those morals are perfect and from Allah through his messengers.

The greatest moral humans in history, the Prophets of mankind, all abided by Gods morals and excelled past anything in human history. Why fix what isnt broken?

 

[aamirsaab]

What would be your virdict, aamirsaab, of Trumble's example?

If God wills, that person will enter paradise.

 

[themuffinman]

idk about you but im a selfish person i wanna see my benefit in it as well....why would i do good deeds and kills my nafs if i dont get rewarded for it????

 

[aamirsaab]

idk about you but im a selfish person i wanna see my benefit in it as well....why would i do good deeds and kills my nafs if i dont get rewarded for it????

There's a hadith on the matter:

Hadith: Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise." (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet's companions) said, 'Not even you, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, "Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me." So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability: and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah."

Al-Bukhari

 

[Trumble]

Picking and choosing morals based on your preferences will net you trouble. Actively shunning Islam's morals will net you hell because those morals are perfect and from Allah through his messengers.

Nobody except you has mentioned either "picking and choosing morals based on preferences" or "actively shunning" anything. It's a total strawman.

Consider this, somebody leads as near a perfect moral life as possible, following all the moral teachings of the Qur'an (bar anything that is directly, and exclusively, devotional). They are actually, being a hypothetical example, rather more successful at it than any real muslim you know. They simply do not believe those teachings came from God, or that such a God exists.

Now, aamirsaab has said that

If God wills, that person will enter paradise

which is perfectly reasonable. Now, what I have trouble understanding is the circumstances in which God, supposedly a perfect omniscient and omni-benevolent being, would not admit such a person to Paradise. Can you (sensibly) suggest a possible reason that does not involve endowing God with anthropomorphic characteristics that He cannot have?

 

[aamirsaab]

....
which is perfectly reasonable. Now, what I have trouble understanding is the circumstances in which God, supposedly a perfect omniscient and omni-benevolent being, would not admit such a person to Paradise. Can you (sensibly) suggest a possible reason that does not involve endowing God with anthropomorphic characteristics that He cannot have?

Speaking in general terms it's good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. However, human beings don't always fit that closely to either end of the spectrum. God's judgement, therefore, is believed to be extensive (In Islam, on the day of judgement, we are going to be questioned and held accountable for everything we did in our lives so it is going to be a lot and will vary depending on the person).

There's not really a instant win or golden ticket to heaven in Islam. Yes you can die a martyr, yes you can have millions of good deeds but ultimately the decision is with God.

Now, the next question one could raise is ''well, why perform those good deeds then?'' Plenty of reasons but the one that I relate most with is it makes you a better person in this life - honesty is better than deceit, love is better than hate, humility is better than arrogance, controlling your emotions is better than letting them control you and so on and so forth. In simpler terms, there are practical reasons for performing those good deeds so we should perform them - for our own sake at least.

 

[- Qatada -]

Consider this, somebody leads as near a perfect moral life as possible, following all the moral teachings of the Qur'an (bar anything that is directly, and exclusively, devotional). They are actually, being a hypothetical example, rather more successful at it than any real muslim you know. They simply do not believe those teachings came from God, or that such a God exists.

Isn't it fair that this person strives for this life and therefore gets the good he strived for within it?


But he rejected the life to come, and the meeting with the One who gave him the goodness he had. So why should he be rewarded for that goodness in the next life if he rejected it and claimed that God had lied, in a state of ungratefulness?

Compared to the one who believed in God, His promise and strived for the life to come by fulfilling its conditions - so he was rewarded for that by a grateful Lord, due to the gratefulness of His servant in this life.

 

[Tornado]

But he rejected the life to come, and the meeting with the One who gave him the goodness he had. So why should he be rewarded for that goodness in the next life if he rejected it and claimed that God had lied, in a state of ungratefulness?

I have a problem with that. This puts me off religion. I rather be judged on my actions than what I simply believe in.

Now, the next question one could raise is ''well, why perform those good deeds then?'' Plenty of reasons but the one that I relate most with is it makes you a better person in this life - honesty is better than deceit, love is better than hate, humility is better than arrogance, controlling your emotions is better than letting them control you and so on and so forth. In simpler terms, there are practical reasons for performing those good deeds so we should perform them - for our own sake at least.

I like this.

 

[crayon]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is narrated on the authority of Amirul Mu'minin, Abu Hafs 'Umar bin al-Khattab, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Actions are (judged) by motives (niyyah), so each man will have what he intended. Thus, he whose migration (hijrah) was to Allah and His Messenger, his migration is to Allah and His Messenger; but he whose migration was for some worldly thing he might gain, or for a wife he might marry, his migration is to that for which he migrated."[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

Actions are important, but so is the motive behind them.
[/FONT]

 

[- Qatada -]

I have a problem with that. This puts me off religion. I rather be judged on my actions than what I simply believe in.

Justify it by quoting my whole post please. Why should God reward someone more from His mercy if this person isn't doing it for His sake nor for His reward which He would give? [with the precondition of the reward being that you believe and obey Him, His Messengers' and His guidance].

Allah is so Just that He actually gives the disbeliever all his reward in this life, merely because this person only strived for this life. And He will reward the believer in the life to come, because the believer did it for Allah's sake, and strived for that life.


Now you tell me where the injustice is in that?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

According to this hadith, Muslims who are strong in faith go to heaven

The Prophet said: If anyone testifies [sincerely from his heart] that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Bondsman and His Messenger, Allah immunizes him from Hell. He [the narrator] then added: I asked the Messenger of Allah: Should I then give the tiding to the people? He [the Prophet] said: Do not tell them this good news, for they would depend on this alone. (Reported by Muslim.)

 

[alcurad]

as it were, humans will differ on what's just and what's not, but we cannot comprehend the creator. thus when speaking about him, we can't truly describe him or the actions he takes/might take except through our own paradigms & experiences.
what is just and not just are for him to decide, there is no such thing as justice to begin with, unless you mean the symmetry principle, which doesn't get applied all the time either.