Following a religion without believing in God

[Q8sobieski]

his mercy over comes his wrath?

HERE is where a encountered problems with faith. I cannot believe the a "wrathful" creator. I benevolent creator, SURE. An indifferent creator, MORE LIKELY. But "wrathful" giving way to "merciful" at times bothers me. These are very human traits.

can we humans forgive sum1 completely and not hold even the tiniest bit of grudge in our hearts?

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal. It is something that I really appreciate about Christianity. There is no "good enough" in Christian forgiveness or love. One can always be more complete ... MORE Christ-like. I like that. I try very hard to be forgiving of those who trespass against me and to banish the desire for revenge from my heart. Why should I prostrate myself to a deity that behaves worse then me!?!?! So, my Christian side usually just ignores the OT or just call it the literary flair of the ancient Hebrews. I think I would have been very happy as a Buddhist.

 

[Q8sobieski]

I know that of all the people I've ever buried, if I accept the testimony of their surviving family, 100% fit the category of, "If ever there was a person who deserved to be in heaven...."

You are right. I work in education and have long learned that NOBODY thinks their child (or themselves) is either ugly or stupid. Even when all the evidence points to one of those being the case! And morally/spiritually nobody (except most Catholics probably) thinks that they are bad. Even Hitler thought he was doing Good. So, if there is indeed a Judgment Day, what sort of criterion could be used for judgment?

 

[Keltoi]

You are right. I work in education and have long learned that NOBODY thinks their child (or themselves) is either ugly or stupid. Even when all the evidence points to one of those being the case! And morally/spiritually nobody (except most Catholics probably) thinks that they are bad. Even Hitler thought he was doing Good. So, if there is indeed a Judgment Day, what sort of criterion could be used for judgment?

A judgment that is not subjective or capricious.

 

[themuffinman]

HERE is where a encountered problems with faith. I cannot believe the a "wrathful" creator. I benevolent creator, SURE. An indifferent creator, MORE LIKELY. But "wrathful" giving way to "merciful" at times bothers me. These are very human traits.



Forgiveness is a Christian ideal. It is something that I really appreciate about Christianity. There is no "good enough" in Christian forgiveness or love. One can always be more complete ... MORE Christ-like. I like that. I try very hard to be forgiving of those who trespass against me and to banish the desire for revenge from my heart. Why should I prostrate myself to a deity that behaves worse then me!?!?! So, my Christian side usually just ignores the OT or just call it the literary flair of the ancient Hebrews. I think I would have been very happy as a Buddhist.

why not a wrathful creator? he is wrathful to the wicked. would u like that he was indifferent to all the crimes hitler commited on judgement day?

 

[Chuck]

Following a religion without believing in God

Some jew do that, anyone heard of atheist jew?

 

[Trumble]

Some jew do that, anyone heard of atheist jew?

Of course. Depends on whether you are using the term 'jew' to refer to member of a particular ethnic group, or as an adherent of the religion Judaism. In the first sense there are muslim and Christian jews as well as atheist and agnostic jews. It is difficult to see how an adherent of Judaism could be an atheist, though!

I'd point out that I follow a religion without believing in God! In general, though.. I don't see how that could work in the case of a theistic religion. You could live your life adhering to the teachings of the Qur'an and/or of Jesus, I suppose, but as already been said there is so much more to it than that. It's a bit like eating the sponge halves of a coffee cake without eating the yummy creamy bit in the middle!

 

[Q8sobieski]

why not a wrathful creator? he is wrathful to the wicked. would u like that he was indifferent to all the crimes hitler commited on judgement day?

Wrath, be it toward the wicked or others, is just a nasty emotion. It is not found in nature. It is entirely human. As for Hitler, I don't care what happens to him. He is dead and it is "between him and God now". Anger, wrath, bloodlust, etc are emotions that even an agnostic-Catholic feels are sinful.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Wrath, be it toward the wicked or others, is just a nasty emotion. It is not found in nature. It is entirely human. As for Hitler, I don't care what happens to him. He is dead and it is "between him and God now". Anger, wrath, bloodlust, etc are emotions that even an agnostic-Catholic feels are sinful.

A nasty emotion? Imposing your wrath upon a serial killer and stuffing him in jail for the rest of his life is not "nasty". It is just.

There are right ways and wrong ways of expressing anger for humans.

But you are trying to apply human emotions to Allah. His wrath and mercy are different from ours. It is just that describing his disposition as merciful or wrathful is merely using whatever words we know to try and best describe Allah. Such words dont capture the full meaning but at least its something to use as a base for understanding.

 

[Trumble]

A nasty emotion? Imposing your wrath upon a serial killer and stuffing him in jail for the rest of his life is not "nasty". It is just.

But surely the justice is possible without the wrath? Indeed you could argue that the wrath would make make true justice very difficult, if not impossible. Judges sentence killers according the sentences laid down for their crime according to law, and an assessment of the seriousness of the crime that is as unbiased as possible, not their own degree of anger. Or, at least, that's how it's supposed to work.

 

[Chuck]

Of course. Depends on whether you are using the term 'jew' to refer to member of a particular ethnic group, or as an adherent of the religion Judaism. In the first sense there are muslim and Christian jews as well as atheist and agnostic jews. It is difficult to see how an adherent of Judaism could be an atheist, though!

I'd point out that I follow a religion without believing in God! In general, though.. I don't see how that could work in the case of a theistic religion. You could live your life adhering to the teachings of the Qur'an and/or of Jesus, I suppose, but as already been said there is so much more to it than that. It's a bit like eating the sponge halves of a coffee cake without eating the yummy creamy bit in the middle!

Not in that sense. I have come across some jews who don't believe in God per se but follow the commandments. Ask them they believe in God, they reply judaism is about practice and not belief.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

But surely the justice is possible without the wrath? Indeed you could argue that the wrath would make make true justice very difficult, if not impossible. Judges sentence killers according the sentences laid down for their crime according to law, and an assessment of the seriousness of the crime that is as unbiased as possible, not their own degree of anger. Or, at least, that's how it's supposed to work.

You misunderstand the meaning of wrath. Wrath is another word for punishment. You break the law, you incur the wrath of the law.

Your assumption that God cannot deliver a perfect punishment is flawed. Again you make the mistake of equating Allah's temperament with a humans. His displeasure does not hinder a just punishment but is part of the punishment itself.

 

[Trumble]

You misunderstand the meaning of wrath. Wrath is another word for punishment. You break the law, you incur the wrath of the law.

Not according to the dictionary, it isn't. 'Wrath' is 'intense anger' or 'belligerence aroused by a real or supposed wrong' (wordnetweb.princeton.edu). It is also one of the 'Seven Deadly Sins' of Christianity.

The use of 'wrath' in the phrase 'wrath of the law' is metaphorical. The law is not the sort of thing that can be intensely angry or belligerent.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Not according to the dictionary, it isn't. 'Wrath' is 'intense anger' or 'belligerence aroused by a real or supposed wrong' (wordnetweb.princeton.edu). It is also one of the 'Seven Deadly Sins' of Christianity.

The use of 'wrath' in the phrase 'wrath of the law' is metaphorical. The law is not the sort of thing that can be intensely angry or belligerent.

Picking and choosing definitions huh?
From merriam webster online

wrath:
2. retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement


Either way that anger is a punishment itself, not an impediment to justice. The anger of Allah is a punishment too. But don't try and equate divine anger with human anger.

 

[Wyatt]

What do we make of those people? They are arrogant in the extreme. They recognize the superiority of theistic morals but still continue to rebel against Allah in ANY way they can.

Is it deemed better to at least follow the prinicples of a religion, even without believing in God? Or would that be pointless?

It is probably deemed to be arrogant in the extreme. First theyw ant religion gone. THen they adopt the rules of religion but refuse belief in Allah. Like the blindman who walks upright and proud but doesnt realize he is about to walk off a cliff.

----------

The problem again is what you actually consider "good". Many atheists consider same sex marriage "good." But if the Torah, Bible and Quran are anything to go by, Allah doesnt deem it good.

Okay, I have several points that I would like to make in response to some things said here.

First: Those morals don't necessarily have to be attributed with the fact that they are theistic. They are not rebelling when they agree with the morals. The only thing they are not doing is believing that Allah exists. Why would they consciously rebel against something they don't even belief is there?

Second: Not all atheists want religion gone. I love Islam, and I have been thinking about practicing it, but I still have difficulty with believing in a god. So, I would probably be considered an Atheistic Muslim. I just like its selected moral practices.

Third: I, personally, do not see anything wrong with same-sex marriage. This opinion of yours that everyone, including the people who are not religious, should follow the abrahamic religious beliefs is unfair as some would see it. Here, you are saying they should follow religious beliefs to rule them, but once they like the religious morals and try to follow them without believing in the actual god, you get offended.

Just because someone is without a god, that doesn't mean that they are completely blind to the fact that having certain "morals" will benefit them. So many religious people believe that all atheists are immoral and have no direction in their lives. I feel completely otherwise.

I wouldn't exactly call them arrogant to the extreme just yet when they say that they follow Islamic morals, but do not believe in the god. As seeker-of-light said, they may even find the value in what has given them their morals and possibly get to believe in that god. Going off on them will probably just turn them off and won't help anything for either person.

Their intention of believing in the theistic morals is not in rebellion, but in self-interest. I'm sure Allah would not want you to shun them for not believing in Him, but encourage them to seek out the divinity that created those morals.

I want to believe in Allah, but I can't because I haven't found great clarification and confidence in the entire concept of Him. So, should I just ignore the morals and not subscribe to them? Maybe if one practices the religious morals, it will naturally pull them to Allah if he is true. How could following something Allah created be shameful or arrogant when the belief of him doesn't exist? It is perfect, no?

[Edit: You saying that people who are pro-gay marriage think it's "good" is misleading. I don't think it's "good" nor "bad". I am indifferent to it or I believe that such choice should be available in defence of civil rights for different views. It's just like saying people who are "pro-choice" are "pro-abortion" when those two are totally different concepts. If anyone's god is against abortion or gay marriage, then I should say 'don't do it!' but insisting that a country's (that allows a freedom of religion) politics should be against it because of a religion is the same mindset of terrorist groups or oppressive theocracies for any religion.]

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Okay, I have several points that I would like to make in response to some things said here.

First: Those morals don't necessarily have to be attributed with the fact that they are theistic. They are not rebelling when they agree with the morals. The only thing they are not doing is believing that Allah exists. Why would they consciously rebel against something they don't even belief is there?

Second: Not all atheists want religion gone. I love Islam, and I have been thinking about practicing it, but I still have difficulty with believing in a god. So, I would probably be considered an Atheistic Muslim. I just like its selected moral practices.

Third: I, personally, do not see anything wrong with same-sex marriage. This opinion of yours that everyone, including the people who are not religious, should follow the abrahamic religious beliefs is unfair as some would see it. Here, you are saying they should follow religious beliefs to rule them, but once they like the religious morals and try to follow them without believing in the actual god, you get offended.

Just because someone is without a god, that doesn't mean that they are completely blind to the fact that having certain "morals" will benefit them. So many religious people believe that all atheists are immoral and have no direction in their lives. I feel completely otherwise.

I wouldn't exactly call them arrogant to the extreme just yet when they say that they follow Islamic morals, but do not believe in the god. As seeker-of-light said, they may even find the value in what has given them their morals and possibly get to believe in that god. Going off on them will probably just turn them off and won't help anything for either person.

Their intention of believing in the theistic morals is not in rebellion, but in self-interest. I'm sure Allah would not want you to shun them for not believing in Him, but encourage them to seek out the divinity that created those morals.

I want to believe in Allah, but I can't because I haven't found great clarification and confidence in the entire concept of Him. So, should I just ignore the morals and not subscribe to them? Maybe if one practices the religious morals, it will naturally pull them to Allah if he is true. How could following something Allah created be shameful or arrogant when the belief of him doesn't exist? It is perfect, no?

[Edit: You saying that people who are pro-gay marriage think it's "good" is misleading. I don't think it's "good" nor "bad". I am indifferent to it or I believe that such choice should be available in defence of civil rights for different views. It's just like saying people who are "pro-choice" are "pro-abortion" when those two are totally different concepts. If anyone's god is against abortion or gay marriage, then I should say 'don't do it!' but insisting that a country's (that allows a freedom of religion) politics should be against it because of a religion is the same mindset of terrorist groups or oppressive theocracies for any religion.]

Gah.... long post.. so sleepy.

I'll try and respond as coherently as I can and just through out a few thigns in no particular order.:exhausted

1. There is no such thing as an atheistic Muslim. Being a Muslim means that you submit yourself to Allah. Attempting to adhere to Islamic morals but refusing to submit to Allah ( barring the fact that this is not possible seeing as how Islamic thought is in essence connected to Allah in EVERY way) makes you a hypocrite, not a Muslim.

2. I'm sure that you heard of the Islamic concept of fitrah? The inclination of humans toward virtue. Whether or not you believe in God, you are still endowed with fitrah from him.

Yet without Allah's laws to guide you, you are led astray by a combination of various factors including following your own desires.

If you say same sex marriage is wrong, Islam considers that as a flaw in your fitrah.

The purpose of religion is to refine your fitrah and give it proper direction. Otherwise it will wander aimlessly, being thrown whichever way your personal desires take you.

3. I dont want to get in a "God and morality" debate but let me give you a quick rundown of what the whole debate brings to ming.

I) Assuming no God
a. There are no absolute morals in society then
- Who cares if YOU think stealing is wrong? I want Halo 3 so I will walk into the next Toys R us and stuff it in my jacket then make a sprint for the door. You dont like it? Boo hoo. I have a new game. You have words.

b. If you think about it, you are just a multi trillion conglomeration of the atoms and molecules I see in my chemistry text book. What the hell to I care if something I do makes you sad? I live for 80 years then I die and turn to dust. I will try and get as much as I want before I kick the bucket. Money, women, the easy life is all that matters. A old man comes to me for money? Hmm you're just a smelly sack of organs and chemicals back off!

c. Do "good"? What makes you think your "good" is my "good"? I cant even be guaranteed actions will make a difference because it is just a possible that "evil" will win n the end. Besides eventually none of this matters. Everyone and everything is just going to die, rot, and eventually turn back to stardust. whatever.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Actually more on topic.

The people who "follow Islamic morals but dont belive in Allah." Is a myth. As I said in my above post you CANNOT follow Islamic morals without submitting to Allah.

I do good because Allah tells me to. It is my destiny. And it makes me truly human in the Islamic sense. But really I do it because Allah tells me to and he is the ultimate good and I am his servant. I have thought about this deeply and realize that this is for the best.

Every one of my actions is immortal and makes a difference.

As for the "athiestic Muslims." You do good because it makes you feel better about yourself. Whether that means not branding yourself as mean, stingy, whatever. You give money to a man so that you can call yourself charitable. etc etc.


A true Muslim gives money to an old man because it is his divine duty on this planet to act human. It is his purpose. One that is immutable and Unambiguous. God has created him and told him this and given him a choice to follow it.

With all my heart I choose the next world over this world. I have questioned my religion and have found it not wanting and the most logical. An "athiest Muslim" whatever that may be, has chosen this world.

 

[alcurad]

Podarok, I'm indifferent to homosexual practices too, but the thing is religion is much more than a personal opinion, the purpose of religion is to preserve humans and enable them to reach maturity, thus there are punishments and harsh laws. not punishing the transgressors is unjust to oneself and the rest of society, since others will surely imitate with no fear of punishment to stop them.
I believe in the concept of "greater good' in all its 'worst' details, this doesn't clash with my belief in Islam, rather it enables one to truly be able to follow humanitarianism.
a wrathful god is simply a metaphor, every utterance about god in the holy texts is a metaphor, in this life, he can't be understood, rather the image created when one reads the texts is useful, since a 'faceless' entity is very hard to believe in and follow.
as I see it though, christianity-excluding elements of Catholicism- fails the test, to more than a personal belief that is, it made god into human, thus human became god, focusing too much on love and not on 'justice' is not practical for the purpose of religion as something larger than a personal belief.
no one can follow a religion perfectly without believing in its image of god, its an impossible hypothesis, but the point is very good otherwise, since believing in god is a personal belief, religion-morals etc- is not. perhaps secularism driving the privatization of religion has much do to with the concept being lost.

P.S glo you asked this two weeks ago so this is kind of late I know, anyway I never liked the idea of people burning in hell forever regardless of what they did, something to do with my first philosophy to follow being sophism perhaps, anyway, I don't think humans are fully responsible for their actions, but then I also ,,,oh whatever, can't seem to put to words, anyway some scholars discussed that hell doesn't last, but heaven/paradise does, so...

 

[AntiKarateKid]

One last thing to think about.

The prophets of Mankind, such as Muhammad pbuh, were all the firmest believers in Allah. These greatest of humans changed the world through sheer moral force and inspired billions to pursue truth.

There has never been an "atheist" or "agnostic" equivalent to them. Moreover, the companions of the Prophet pbuh displayed such ethics and morality as had never and will never be seen again.


Simply put, atheists and agnostics have nothing that can compare when a believer truly follows the laws of Allah. Sure Muslims today are imperfect. But judge the laws of Islam by those who lived it to the fullest and you can see that nothing can compete with them.

 

[Sarada]

1,Belief in God is not a pre-requisite for being a moral, ethical, compassionate human being.

2.There are many bad apples in the barrel of those who claim to be religious.

3.Religiousity is not automaticaly equal to morality.

 

[alcurad]

The prophets of Mankind, such as Muhammad pbuh, were all the firmest believers in Allah. These greatest of humans changed the world through sheer moral force and inspired billions to pursue truth.

I would add many things to moral force, such as knowing how society functions.