Following a religion without believing in God

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b. If you think about it, you are just a multi trillion conglomeration of the atoms and molecules I see in my chemistry text book. What the hell to I care if something I do makes you sad? I live for 80 years then I die and turn to dust. I will try and get as much as I want before I kick the bucket. Money, women, the easy life is all that matters. A old man comes to me for money? Hmm you're just a smelly sack of organs and chemicals back off!.

But this is true, so why would you need morals if since you're a bunch of atoms and molecules, you're obviously acting upon a cerebral chain reaction that's affected by the external world. If we don't have the free will to make our own choices, why would we need to even talk about the existence of morality?

You do good because it makes you feel better about yourself. Whether that means not branding yourself as mean, stingy, whatever. You give money to a man so that you can call yourself charitable. etc etc.


A true Muslim gives money to an old man because it is his divine duty on this planet to act human. It is his purpose. One that is immutable and Unambiguous. God has created him and told him this and given him a choice to follow it.
So a godless human doing good deeds is selfish by doing it to label themself as charitable? I agree.

That means a muslim doing good deeds is being selfish because they are doing it for what they believe will be the best benefit of them in their religion, right?

If you look at everything that we do, without religion for a second, it's in our own self-interest below all the "it's what Allah wants" or "well it hurts me to do that, but I still did it" because at the end of the day, you think what you did was best for you to be happy. Only, when one is a muslim, they do it so Allah can be happy with them, in turn letting them be happy about themself.
 
the companions of the Prophet pbuh displayed such ethics and morality as had never and will never be seen again.

Who is making this claim? That sounds like a bit of hyperbole. I happen the think than any of a few recent popes had impecable ethics and morality.

Simply put, atheists and agnostics have nothing that can compare when a believer truly follows the laws of Allah.

This is another claim that I do not think can be supported. You are suggesting that atheists and agnostics are somehow immoral or have lower moral standards. However, it is widely know that prisons are full of Believers. In fact, one could say that Christians and Muslims are over-represented in North American prisons. Non-religious people make up around 10% of the population but represent less than 1/2 of 1% of prison inmates. Why is that?!?!? This comes from an admittedly biased source: http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html however, I had seen similar statistics elsewhere.

Sure Muslims today are imperfect. But judge the laws of Islam by those who lived it to the fullest and you can see that nothing can compete with them.

I will judge the tree by the fruit it produces. Muslims often say that there have been not proper practice of Islam since the 4 original caliphs. This makes me rather suspicious. It has been 1350 years and NOBODY has done it right since then ...
 
A nasty emotion? Imposing your wrath upon a serial killer and stuffing him in jail for the rest of his life is not "nasty". It is just.


"Stuffing" somebody in jail, at least a jail in North America, is not an exercise in judicial wrath. To the contrary; English law is designed very purposefully to keep "wrath" out of the equation. While victims and families of victims are encouraged to attend court proceedings, they are prohibited from having any role in judgment or sentencing. There is no allowance for vengeance in English Common Law.

But you are trying to apply human emotions to Allah.

No -- I am trying to remove any human emotion from God, especially the ones that I find personally distasteful.

His wrath and mercy are different from ours. It is just that describing his disposition as merciful or wrathful is merely using whatever words we know to try and best describe Allah. Such words dont capture the full meaning but at least its something to use as a base for understanding.

Which returns us to an earlier post of mine in which I said that the true nature of any deity was ultimately unknowable. If "wrath" doesn't mean "wrath" and if "mercy" doesn't mean "mercy" then what do we have? And I certainly reject the idea that God's nature is only knowable in one language like Latin, Sanskrit, or Arabic. At this point of my spiritual quest, I am only comfortable saying "God is love, God is creative; and God is constant" Everything after than is probably just wishful thinking.
 
A nasty emotion? Imposing your wrath upon a serial killer and stuffing him in jail for the rest of his life is not "nasty". It is just.


"Stuffing" somebody in jail, at least a jail in North America, is not an exercise in judicial wrath. To the contrary; English law is designed very purposefully to keep "wrath" out of the equation. While victims and families of victims are encouraged to attend court proceedings, they are prohibited from having any role in judgment or sentencing. There is no allowance for vengeance in English Common Law.



No -- I am trying to remove any human emotion from God, especially the ones that I find personally distasteful.



Which returns us to an earlier post of mine in which I said that the true nature of any deity was ultimately unknowable. If "wrath" doesn't mean "wrath" and if "mercy" doesn't mean "mercy" then what do we have? And I certainly reject the idea that God's nature is only knowable in one language like Latin, Sanskrit, or Arabic. At this point of my spiritual quest, I am only comfortable saying "God is love, God is creative; and God is constant" Everything after than is probably just wishful thinking.


you are correct in saying the true nature of god is unknowable but he has described his mercy and wrath so humans can understand just a tiny part of him. its like describing the world to a person whos born blind, he will never grasps the full extent. the language thing, well islamic belief is god sent down around 124,000 prophets and messengers to mankind, each to guide his own people calling for the monotheistic worship of god, but when the messengers died slowly people fell into idol worship and completly distorted his teaching. you have to realize languages change over time even the quran which was revealed is in arabic at the time of muhammed has changed and many countires do not speak it any more but because the quran has been revealed in arabic and muhammed is the last messenger ever to come down for ALL of humanity efforts were made to preserve the exact language the quran was revealed in...and youll find its the only language unchanged and preserved through history. is the bible still in jesus's native aramaic language?
 
is the bible still in jesus's native aramaic language?

Hehe. Wasn't it translated from Aramaic to Hebrew, then to all the other languages? :rollseyes I just wouldn't feel secure calling a triple translation "God's word". Especially when there are many muslims who criticise direct translations of the Qur'an as not being equal to the actual written Arabic.
 
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is the bible still in jesus's native aramaic language?

It is a side note but the New Testament was ORIGINALLY written in Greek -- it was the international language (like English or French today) of that part of the world 2000 years ago. Later, it was translated into Aramaic which survives in tiny pockets today in Al-Sham. After Constantine, the Catholics began to institute the primacy of Latin but that was the case at the time of Jesus. It was mostly a reflection of the Bishop of Rome pushing over the other patriarchs. But to answer your question, "YES" the New Testament is still found in Ancient Greek. If you can read it in Ancient Greek, have at it. Greek and Latin were never divine to Christians but simply represented "universal" languages.

and youll find its the only language unchanged and preserved through history

It is neither here nor there but Chinese has been preserved unchanged for 4000 years, much longer than Arabic. Also, Icelandic has been preserved near perfectly for slightly less time than MSA (fushah), about 1000 years.

Although this just seems like a tangent, it has a point. I do not believe there are any privileged frames of reference when it comes to theology and mythology.
 
It is a side note but the New Testament was ORIGINALLY written in Greek -- it was the international language (like English or French today) of that part of the world 2000 years ago. Later, it was translated into Aramaic which survives in tiny pockets today in Al-Sham. After Constantine, the Catholics began to institute the primacy of Latin but that was the case at the time of Jesus. It was mostly a reflection of the Bishop of Rome pushing over the other patriarchs. But to answer your question, "YES" the New Testament is still found in Ancient Greek. If you can read it in Ancient Greek, have at it. Greek and Latin were never divine to Christians but simply represented "universal" languages.



It is neither here nor there but Chinese has been preserved unchanged for 4000 years, much longer than Arabic. Also, Icelandic has been preserved near perfectly for slightly less time than MSA (fushah), about 1000 years.

Although this just seems like a tangent, it has a point. I do not believe there are any privileged frames of reference when it comes to theology and mythology.
who knows then perhaps one of the 124,000 prophets sent by god were to the chinese since the quran only mentions but a few prophets, but we dont have the the chinese scriptures today
 
If it were true that there were so many prophets sent, what about when humans were not civilised, but lived in hunter-gatherer tribes? Was there a prophet to every tribe? :exhausted

Or were humans always in societies? :rollseyes
 
If it were true that there were so many prophets sent, what about when humans were not civilised, but lived in hunter-gatherer tribes? Was there a prophet to every tribe? :exhausted

Or were humans always in societies? :rollseyes
The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive, there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!" (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!"( quran surah 79, verse 71-72)

For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth, Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?" They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'God never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'" They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire! (quran surah 67, verse 6-11)



Clearly from the Quran we see that no one will ever be punished unless that person has received the true message of God and then rejects it. God will not punish someone who lives in some isolated place and has never received the Message. That would truly be unjust.

it is clear that a warner had come to every civilation wheather hunter gather or nomadic from amongst themselves,
 
The Chinese never showed any interest in god-based religions. They have always practiced ancestor worship. Even to this day the Chinese prefer there folk ways. This was even after my great uncle spent an entire lifetime as a missionary trying convince them to become Catholic.
 
The Chinese never showed any interest in god-based religions. They have always practiced ancestor worship. Even to this day the Chinese prefer there folk ways. This was even after my great uncle spent an entire lifetime as a missionary trying convince them to become Catholic.


your looking at it from a present day point of view, of what is recorded what if the original idea was a monotheistic call to one god and when their messenger died the people fell into idol worship and worship of saints or their ancestors and distorted his teachings.... its the same we beleive for christianity, jesus never proclaimed he was god yet christians still worship him. jesus never claimed that god is three in one yet the concept of the trinity exists. even some sects of muslims today beleive a distorted version of islam....but thankfully we have the quran preserved and the teachings of the prophet perfectly untouched and preserved to follow islam in the correct way
 
In the Qur’anic conception of the world everything in
the heavens and on earth is imbued with knowledge
of God and proclaims his glory; similarly instinctive
knowledge of the Supreme Being is embedded in each
human soul as an inborn part of human nature.16
Moreover, all peoples on earth have received divine
messengers at some time in the course of human
history or pre-history.17 Consequently, God and his
names are part of a universal human legacy. They are
hardly unique to anyone, nor are the Abrahamic religions
the sole residuaries of divine names expressing
the Creator’s perfection and glory.
The world’s many micro-religions (i.e., primitive
religions) contain hundreds of names for God, bearing
witness to his oneness, preexistence, eternity, omnipotence,
omniscience, omnipresence, goodness, and
justice. There is an observable pattern in the microreligions
to regard the Supreme Being as the source
5
One God, Many Names
of all vital knowledge, moral norms, and essential
social conventions. Like pre-Islamic Arab paganism,
micro-religions associate deified human beings, lesser
spirits, and intermediaries with God, although they
consistently lack the full-blown pantheons typical of
the polytheistic religions of many ancient civilizations.
Numerous micro-religions commemorate a primeval
time of the “old religion,” when harmony existed between
the Supreme Being and their forebears, an age
of pristine happiness which was brought to an end
through wrongdoing, estrangement, and alienation.18
The micro-religions reflect instinctive commonsensical
knowledge of God without the intricate
metaphysical theologies of civilized peoples. As with
the pre-Islamic Arab cult of All¥h, micro-religions
refrain uniformly from associating the Creator God
with idols, images, or pictures, for they insist that he
cannot be seen with physical eyes nor touched by human
hands. The Nilotic tribes of southern Sudan, for
instance, share an ancient belief in “the Great God,
who created humankind,” and, although they associate
intermediaries with him, they acknowledge that he
is eternal, without origin or likeness, all-knowing and
all-powerful, upholding the moral order.
Around 1906, a European anthropologist studied
the Shilluk, one of these Nilotic tribes, and once asked
a six-year old boy from the tribe who had created him.
Without hesitation, the little boy answered, “Dywok
(God) created me.” The anthropologist pressed further,
asking what Dywok was like and where he came
from. With childlike self-assurance, the boy quickly replied
that he did not know, but his father surely would.
To his astonishment, neither his father nor immediate
kin had an answer, but the child kept inquiring until
he finally brought the question before his tribal elders.
They replied:
Dywok, we only know that he exists. We know he
made the sky that you see above, the stars, all the
animals, and even people—both black and white—but
who Dywok actually is, no one in Shilluk can say. For
no one has seen him. What we know is this: Dywok is
there and made everything. Even if you cannot see him,
yet he is there…like the breeze that blows. Even if no
one can see the breeze, yet it blows. No one has doubts
about that.19
The micro-religions are filled with telling names of
God. “Creator” and “Maker” are virtually universal.
Native Americans had many names for God. The
Cheyenne called him “Creator of the universe” and
“Lord of the entire heaven and earth.” The Californian
Maidu called him “Ruler of the world.” The Fox called
him “the Guide” and “the Good Spirit.” The Lenape
called him “Our Creator,” “You to whom we pray,”
“Pure Spirit,” and “You to whom we belong.” Some
South African Bushmen and the pygmies of Gabon
called him “the Lord of all things.” The Siberian
Samoyeds knew him as “the Creator of life.” The Ainu
of Japan called him “the Divine Maker of the worlds,”
“the Divine Lord of heaven,” “the Inspirer,” and “the
Protector.” The Wirdyuri of Australia called him “the
Eternal,” and several Aboriginal tribes designated
him as “the Great Builder” and “the Great Maker,”
although certain Aborigines and African Bushmen
held the Creator’s name to be inviolable (taboo)
and imparted it only to adult male initiates, while
concealing it from women, children, and outsiders.
Ancient civilizations also bear witness to a
primordial knowledge of the One. Although the
pharaonic Egyptians were highly polytheistic, their
language contained abundant names and attributions
for the Supreme Being distinct from the personified
gods of their pantheon. Ancient Egyptian was replete
with seemingly endless synonyms for God (Neter,
Sha‘, Khabkhab, ¤ep^ep, Shesa, Sedga, Saj, Nethraj,
Nekhbaj, Khetraj, Itnuw, and so forth). There were
names for “the Creator” (Kewen, Kun, Ne^ef),
“Creation’s God” (Nebirut), and “the Giver of forms”
(Nebi). They invoked “the High God” (Neter ‘A), “the
6
One God, Many Names
Lord” (Nebu), “the Divinity from preexistence” (Nun,
¤a^u), “the Divinely Merciful” (¤etefi), “the Divine
Destroyer” (¤etem), “the God of truth and balance”
(Sema Ma‘at), “the God of humankind” (Itmu), and
“the Lord of all” (Neberdher).20
The ancient Chinese worshipped a personalized
“Creator” (Tsao wu chê), “the Ruler of heaven”
(Shang Ti), “Heaven’s Lord” (Ti’en Ti), and “the
Lord” (Ti), although “Heaven” (Ti’en) later became
the most common Chinese name for God and sometimes
reflected astral beliefs. But an ancient Chinese
dictionary says of “Heaven” (Ti’en): “The exalted in
the highest of his exaltation. His ideogram combines
two symbols, which mean ‘the One, who is the most
great.’” Some ancient Chinese scholars wrote that
“Heaven” (T’ien) had been substituted for “the Ruler
of heaven” (Shang Ti) in the ancient past, because “it
is not permissible that the name Shang Ti be taken
lightly. Therefore, we call him by the name of the place
where he abides, which is ‘heaven,’ that is, ti’en on the
analogy that ‘the court’ signifies ‘the emperor.’”

The Sanskrit Vedas of ancient India contain a notable
vocabulary for the Supreme Being: “the Creator”
(Dhâtr), “the Lord of the creatures” (Prjâpati), “the
Maker of all things” (Vishvakarman), “the Regulator
of things” (Vidhâtr), “the Manifest One” (Dhartr),
“the Protector” (Trâtr), “the Guide” (Netr), “the Giver
of forms” (Tvashtr), and “the Animator” or “Reviver”
(Savitr). One of his names was simply “Who” (Ka),
signifying the one who is ultimately unfathomable and
beyond finite description. In later times, Ka was frequently
used to designate the Supreme Being.

this proves even the polytheistic religions at one point or another recognized a supreme beings over even the other lesser gods they worshipped. traces of monotheism can be found in all the worlds religions but they have been corrupted over the years. the original message was a call to worship
the one god, the creator and sustainer of the univers (god, allah, whatever you want to call him) but we know human nature to fall into idol worship and associate partners with god. i think since we cannot see the one god he seems very distant to us it is much easier to have images of him or make idols of lesser gods to intercede on our behalfs and this is basic human nature the need to feel and see thus falling into idol worship.
 
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Really? Then, do you know where I can get a hold of an Aramaic Bible? Or- read it online? :)

HERE :)

There are those who think the NT was originally written in Aramaic (LINK), but the vast majority of scholars have no doubt it was written in Greek. Greek was the lingua franca of the age.
 
well... I've known several Muslims who dont perform salah, dont fast on Ramadhan, drink, free sex.... let say... non-practising Muslims...

But they're very angry when the Muhammad caricatures were drawn, they're against any laws allowing Muslims to change religion, they dont want other peoples to ridicule or criticise Islam or Muhammad..

I think that they are not atheists but just lazy to practise Islam...

They are called "Fasiqun." Like we say when people are doing unlawful sexual intercourse(out of marriage), we call them "Zina doers," not "people who do free sex."
 
Those kind of people are similar to Zindiqah(Bathiniyyah) or Philosophers who denied all of Allah's attributes and Mu'athilah who said that Allah has no attributes and characters at all.

So these kinds of people often times becoming Kafir.



Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
 
The Chinese never showed any interest in god-based religions. They have always practiced ancestor worship. Even to this day the Chinese prefer there folk ways. This was even after my great uncle spent an entire lifetime as a missionary trying convince them to become Catholic.

They're really proud of their culture, and I wouldn't be surprised if they found it as an insult when theists try to change it. I like the free access to religions and even some religious influence, but trying to convert the people, I find quite disrespectful to their entire culture, personally. No matter which religion it is. If it is in their interest, especially Asian interest, it will generally flow in. At least, that's the impression I've gotten over the years. I'm no expert on Chinese culture.

And I, as an agnostic/atheist, am proud of their culture as well and respect their religions. :D Not quite their modern society, but their classical one. That's a whole different subject though. I wouldn't try to change them if I were religious.
 
They're really proud of their culture, and I wouldn't be surprised if they found it as an insult when theists try to change it. I like the free access to religions and even some religious influence, but trying to convert the people, I find quite disrespectful to their entire culture, personally. No matter which religion it is. If it is in their interest, especially Asian interest, it will generally flow in. At least, that's the impression I've gotten over the years. I'm no expert on Chinese culture.

And I, as an agnostic/atheist, am proud of their culture as well and respect their religions. :D Not quite their modern society, but their classical one. That's a whole different subject though. I wouldn't try to change them if I were religious.


You should be an anthropologist if you value cultures just because they are there. If Native Americans who make "dream catchers" as a part of a cultural tradition converted to Islam and stopped making them, I consider that as an advancement. They learned that making a prayer to Allah to protect them from nightmares is immeasurably better than making a gadget out of feathers and sinew.

Nothing is forcing them to convert. I wouldnt get insulted if a person tried to proselytize to me. Proper actions should not be avoided just because of improper attitudes.

EVERY Muslim has a duty to spread Islam and to be an example to others. There is no compulsion in religion though, so missionaries must be mindful of Islam's own warnings against shoving the religion into people's faces. That being said I will always, when appropriate, bring the matter of a person's religion/lack of it up and explain Islam to them if they are willing to listen.
 
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