for mature theists only

[جوري]

That is really excellent, I just wrote something vaguely similar to this on the health and science section yesterday about "form", and "instincts", not just a series of protein moieties... he might be considered a "heretic" but I really find many scientists share his views. Many Scientists become devoutly religious or at low small denominator "spiritual"... Genes are simply the alphabet of science!

 

[rav]

I am asking about what had led you to believe in G-D!

Shalom Eleichem,

What has led me to be so certain of G-d's existance? The leg of an ant. The eye. To be more specific: Everything in nature. If in the wilderness you find one stone perched atop two, you are inclined to believe this to be the work of an intellegent being. But when you find a thousand stones in a bottom row, and each successive upper row is diminished by one, until the apex where a single stone is perched, then only a madman admits the possibility of chance. Yet everything in the universe, organic and inorganic, is much more complicated than the pile of stones.

If only a single leaf was found in the world, it would constitute irrefutable proof of an Infinite Intellegence, by reason of its amazing rib-structure, conduits which conduct the fluid bearing the various materials in thousands of roads and by-ways, and its numerous tiny but marvelously efficient chemical laboratories. Here is more engineering than a dozen George Washington bridges, and more chemistry apparatus than in all the Du Pont plants put together. But the world is full of billions of such complex and cunningly designed natural objects. Every one of these objects in the loudest tone proclaims that an enormous Intellegence has planned it.

One hair of a cat contains more cunning planning than an entire page of writing, yet no one would dare claim a page of writing could be formed by accidental means such as an ink spill. The cat hair stands rooted in a tiny well of oil, and its scales are symetrically arranged tapering towards the top, a veritable feat of construction and purposeful planning. It is of flexible material, it keeps out the cold and keeps the warmth in the body, it is self oiling, it can be renewed from its roots, it is water-resistant, it shields the skin against blows of abrasions, and in many cases supplies protective coloration. Thus one hair speaks with unmistakable clarity of the vast Wisdom which planned it.

The cat has eyes especially contsructed for night vision. Its whiskers enhance the function of smelling. It poseeses sharp daggers, of tough horn, which can be retracted and kept out of way when not in use; else they would make the animals footsteps heard by its prey. This is obviously an animals constructed for the purpose of destroying mice.

It is a clean creature, which performs all body functions secretly, and cleans its fur by tounge washing, as befits a member of the household.

A tree takes soil, sunlight, and water, combines them all and produces an apple, made out of those ingredients. How does it know how to do this? Not a single scientist in the world can do it. Give him dirt, water and sunlight and ask him to make an apple. Wont happen.

So how does the tree know how to do it? Who "programmed" the tree with this wisdom? Every leaf on a tree has one shiny side and one dull side. the shiny side "catches" the sunlight and uses it for the tree's purpose. The dull side does not have sun-catching apparatus. In every tree in the world, every leaf grows with the shiny side up, cuz that’s where the sun is. How did the tree "know" that the sun is up? And that it should put the sun-catching apparatus on the top of the leaf? And never on the bottom?

I could go on literally forever. Every single cell in a tree - and every thing else in the world - contains so much wisdom and shows awareness of everything else in the world. Who "programmed" these mega-computers? Even a plant growing totally in the dark will have the shiny side up. But that’s not the point. The point is, how does the leaf "sense" that the sun is "up"? And that it needs the sun? And that its response, in order to survive, is to put the shiny stuff in a position to catch the sun? Maybe it needs shade not sun? Maybe it should "sense" the shade and reverse its leaves?

Obviously, the tree has been "programmed" to "know" all this stuff. Question: Who taught the tree all this knowledge?

Let us make it multiple choice. This is either (1.) accident, or (2.) intelligence. There is no third alternative.

The above are a few of the infinite miracles of nature. The evidence of G-d is found in his creations. The truth is found in His word. However, I will keep my post to simply "Why do you believe in G-d" and I will not continue, onto why I believe in Judaism since it would only drive this thread off topic, lead to debate in which Judaism will be slandered and finally what would it accomplish, since Judaism doesn't need to "save" non-Jews?

I eagerly wish to read other views on this topic.

Peace.

 

[جوري]

^^^ that is one of the few best I have read, and thank you for sharing.. reps for you =)

 

[Woodrow]

Rav, I admit you have made a very convincing point. Very beautifully worded.

 

[جوري]

I just wanted to add, that I certainly had/have no intention of bringing a "which is the right religion debate" or any form of strife into this, I think this is a step further up from where we are-- here I wish to have it confined to a philosophical debate of why G-D? .. I wanted to keep it pure and personal, a product of self reflection. I really believe that most of us, have at some point questioned whether or not there is a G-D, and I just wanted everyone's distilled version of their life long search.
Thank you again all, for keeping it on a level.

peace!

 

[Abu yahya]

I used to be a swat in primary school lol and by the age of a bout 10 I'd herd of evolution theory and that it was scientific. I, at the time believing science was the ultimate truth and religion was backward (although not expressing it of course!), believed that therefore evolution must be the death blow to religion, and I just took the T.V's word in telling me it was scientific (U're easily convinced as a child lol, one documentary is enough). Anyway I still wasn't sure if I believed or not, perhaps because my fitrah wouldnt accept it as I was so young.

Then one day everything changed. It was in the summer holidays between primary and high school (age 11). I was bored one day so I went into my brother's room as he was at work. At that time my brother was getting da'wah from some other brothers and he has just started practising recently so he had some islamic books for beginners in his room. Anyway, I went in and by chance I picked up a book whose title and author I remember till this day, even though I never saw it again for 5 years, "The Qur'aan and Modern Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille" . It changed my whole life, to me it was clear proof that the Qur'aan was the word of Allah, and that Islaam was the religion of God.

In the next Summer I attended an islamic conference and the speaker spoke about how we can't have been created from nothing, and we can't have created ourselves, and the only other possibility is that God created us. This only further strengthened my belief in the existance of God.

I was only young, so I never had the will power to start practising properly. But over the next few months I wanted to learn more, so what I used to do is read some of my bro's books before I went to sleep. I remember reading bits from the pamphlet "The three fundamentals followed by the four rules" of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhaab (r), before sleeping (alone in my room-it was real sukoon masha'Allaah, especially doing it at such a young age).

Anyway, I don't wanna go into any other details, as this is how I started to believe in God. But over the years my belief has strengthened more and more as a result of Allah answering my prayers when I was in real difficulty, and feeling the sweetness of eemaan.

 

[NoName55]

Bismillah rahman rahim
Salaam Alaikum

I wanted to post here, but am embarrassed to admit that could not put it into words as to why I believed in God (for I have been a Muslim from day zero or 1 and believed in His existance ever since I could remember)

Any how I was asked to post here so I read the thread again and thought that if I wanted to put it in to words it would be from the post #22 by Br. Rav that I would copy almost word for word

Ma'asalaama

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I probably should not be responding in this thread as I would hardly qualify as a mature thiest. The origins of my theism are rooted in my childhood. I was raised both to question everything, and at the same time by parents who did believe. In general I just adopted the views of others that I was exposed to as a child. It wasn't until I was older that I asked many questions about the existence of God, the origins of life, and other such questions and came to some sort of thesis of my own. But to think that I have ever fully shaken the beliefs of my childhood I know better. Those childhood beliefs framed the very constructs of the questions I would eventually ask, and for which I continue to seek answers.

 

[Dagless]

1) As a child: My Momma and Daddy told so.
2) As an adult: A first cause makes sense to me.

Don't listen to them dude, I may not be a mature theist either but I found this profound.

 

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I cannot remember any time in my life when I did not believe or even questioned whether God existed and cared about me. My parents’ example and participating in the Christian rituals in my community served to reinforce my belief in a loving and just God. When I was 14 years old, I realized that my parents’ and Grandparents’ faith was not my faith. They had a relationship with God, but I had the ritual and tradition.

The ritual and tradition was necessary for it cultivated a desire within me to do what was right and not to do what was wrong (although my desires were not always reflected in my actions). However, I did not have an Abrahamic relationship with God. I did not know God as a friend. When I was 14, I acknowledged what was inhibiting such a relationship and surrendered my life, including my assets and plans for the future to God, and He became my Heavenly Father.

After walking with Him for over about 28 years, I know that there is a God. I am more certain of this fact than I am that I am the son of my parents – although I am certain of that too. The scriptures note:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

So it seems that I came to know because I believed - strange but true.

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Woodrow]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I cannot remember any time in my life when I did not believe or even questioned whether God existed and cared about me. My parents’ example and participating in the Christian rituals in my community served to reinforce my belief in a loving and just God. When I was 14 years old, I realized that my parents’ and Grandparents’ faith was not my faith. They had a relationship with God, but I had the ritual and tradition.

The ritual and tradition was necessary for it cultivated a desire within me to do what was right and not to do what was wrong (although my desires were not always reflected in my actions). However, I did not have an Abrahamic relationship with God. I did not know God as a friend. When I was 14, I acknowledged what was inhibiting such a relationship and surrendered my life, including my assets and plans for the future to God, and He became my Heavenly Father.

After walking with Him for over about 28 years, I know that there is a God. I am more certain of this fact than I am that I am the son of my parents – although I am certain of that too. The scriptures note:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

So it seems that I came to know because I believed - strange but true.

Best regards,
Grenville

Peace,

Not strange at all. A faith that comes from a "knowing" seems to be the deepest faith. I can understand the difficulty to put it into words. It is like when I say that when I reverted to Islam it was with a "Knowing" that I had always been Muslim and just did not know how to practice Islam.

Perhaps this feeling and sense of "knowing" is what guides us to seek a path to serve God(swt). I know our athiest members probably have some excellent scientifec reason as to why we had that feelign. But, I believe it is a genuine feeling and knowing of the presence of God(swt) and that the only explainable source for that feeling is God(swt) himself.

I doubt that anyone who has never succumbed to that feeling can understand what is meant by it, as it does not make any logical sense and does not seem to be of any biological use. I doubt very much that the most intelligent Chimpanzees would gain biologically by such a feeling, in fact it would probably destroy any species if it was an evolutionary development.

 

[MustafaMc]

Shalom Eleichem,

What has led me to be so certain of G-d's existance? The leg of an ant. The eye. To be more specific: Everything in nature. .....

I agree with others that this post was most eloquently written.

I can't say what led me to initially believe in God, because I can't remember ever not believing in Him. However, I can say why I believe now. My university studies in biology and genetics leads my mind to believe in a Creator. The fact that a single microscopic sperm from my father united with a single egg from my mother to form a zygote that ultimately developed into me is just too incredibly amazing for me to believe that even a single human being could ever happen by chance mutations and natural selection. That every cell in my body originated from that original union of sperm and egg with all of the information (nuclear DNA) and basic building blocks (organelles, mitochondria, etc) already assembled in one tiny package points to a Higher Power.

Others can flesh out the details of this process better, but that is why I believe......

 

[MustafaMc]

Why did you even make this comment?

However, I will keep my post to simply "Why do you believe in G-d" and I will not continue, onto why I believe in Judaism since it would only drive this thread off topic, lead to debate in which Judaism will be slandered and finally what would it accomplish, since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?

I eagerly wish to read other views on this topic.

Peace.

What do you mean by "since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?"? I think you actually meant to say "doesn't need" instead of "does need".

 

[rav]

Why did you even make this comment?
What do you mean by "since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?"? I think you actually meant to say "doesn't need" instead of "does need".

Yes, my bad. I meant "doesn't" need to. I'll edit it. I was basically saying that although we all may believe something different, there is no need on my part to "spew" which religion has obtained "truth".

 

[جوري]

I agree with others that this post was most eloquently written.

I can't say what led me to initially believe in God, because I can't remember ever not believing in Him. However, I can say why I believe now. My university studies in biology and genetics leads my mind to believe in a Creator. The fact that a single microscopic sperm from my father united with a single egg from my mother to form a zygote that ultimately developed into me is just too incredibly amazing for me to believe that even a single human being could ever happen by chance mutations and natural selection. That every cell in my body originated from that original union of sperm and egg with all of the information (nuclear DNA) and basic building blocks (organelles, mitochondria, etc) already assembled in one tiny package points to a Higher Power.

Others can flesh out the details of this process better, but that is why I believe......

Sobhan Allah--Yes, it is amazing, your parents donated two cells, but it was G-D that gave you and the rest of us life. Every cell in your body carries the same genetic material, yet you have a beta cell expresses only Insulin, while a fibroblast expresses only collagen, oligodendrocytes coating the axons of the nerves; allowing efficient conduction of nerve impulses, an astrocyte supports the nervous tissue and provides insulation for neurons while a meissner's corpuscle are especially sensitive to light touch, a Kupffer cells recycles old red blood cells that no longer are functional. A baby born with brown fat not found in adults to maintain its body temperature. To every organ to every cell a function, then we step outside our body and look at nature and again to each a purpose and a reason, How does every cell know of its purpose? when they all carry the entire library of genetic information, why not be haphazard & miss their purpose? why not do as they please? yet, they work around the clock in harmony-- How do they know of form and will or symbiosis?
Yet they exclaim "science disproves G-D's existence" How can science be anything but a testament to his existence?
Sob7anak rabbi 3ama yasifoon!

 

[ranma1/2]

Without addressing the subject of your post which btw doesn't make good scientific sense. I'll remind you that this isn't a topic about evolution! I ask you, either to respect the topic --as in address it only as relates to the subject matter (mature Theists!)-- or just simply not participate in this thread!
thank you

I do not expect you to understand good scientific sense.
I will participate whenever i see flawed logic. THank you.

 

[جوري]

I do not expect you to understand good scientific sense.
I will participate whenever i see flawed logic. THank you.

Your logic is comparable to a seven dollar bill! Your expectations mean crap to me... as are your attempts to save face!

 

[ranma1/2]

Hi Woodrow,

Now that is true. At least if scientific explanation was the only possible means of life as we know it.

However, this depends on random chance of things developing. Now let us just look at the odds of some things happening. Look at the eye of a Squid, an Eagle, a Shark and a Horse. A mollusk, a bird, a fish and a mammal. Four totaly different life forms, yet with virtually identical eyes..

This is explained under evolution. And remember evolution includes random mutation and natural selection being 2 of the main compents.

With a stretch of the imagination possibly it can be shown that the eye of the Fish, Bird and Mammal were all simply the same eye that developed in the Fish and just carried over as the fish evolved. but, the squid would not fall into that same chain of biological evolution. What are the odds that the same eye structure would form in such diverse creatures on the same planet and all in the same time frame? .

There are several explainations for how the eye evolved and none of them are needing a designer.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

How come among all the mollusks only the cephalopods developed mammalian type eyes? True for the life of a cephalopod it is essential, but what are the odds it can occur randomly?.

It is not random. Selection is a very important part of evolution.

Now look at the symbiotic relationships again. What are the odds of this happening routinely out of random chance? Especialy since it occurs among non-related species. Look at the tiny eye-lash mites you are born with, a nearly invisible arachnid that can only live in the eye lash follicles of humans. Yet, virtually all of us are born with them. A creature that apparantly has no biological reason to exist, yet it does and some how is even able to reproduce and pass from one generation of humans to the next. Yet, they could not exist without humans. What are the odds of that happening randomly?
.

These relations ships have developed over a long time through evolution.

I can accept random developments up to a point, but when it starts to look like the norm, I can no longer even contemplate the odds that would cause all of these "coincidences" to occur randomly on the same insignificant planet and in the same time frame.

Randomization, does not seem to be a very good explanation.

I always enjoy good and honest questions. I think the majority of your questioins can be answered here

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Peace

 

[NoName55]

I could have sworn that I saw a request in title post of thread that only believers in God (ahl al-Kitaab) were asked to share their experience of finding Him

if that is so, I would like to Know why a kafar is being allowed to ruin otherwise decent thread?

 

[جوري]

I could have sworn that I saw a request in title post of thread that only believers in God (ahl al-Kitaab) were asked to share their experience of finding Him

if that is so, I would like to Know why a kafar is being allowed to ruin otherwise decent thread?

Why aren't you humming in reverence of the wikipedia articles? Bros woodrow who has a couple of doctorates under his belt was ignorant that such information is in existence.
As all of us theists just fell off the turnip truck and in need of these leaders of the pack and holders of the flame; to guide our way out of this cesspool and into enlightenment.