For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

eric, thanks for the kind words

And thank you too.

but you didnt answer any of the questions really

yes God can create the bible as he chooses, but why then did he choose to have mistakes if this was meant to be a book of guidance for mankind

When you guys post exerts from the Qu’ran, I read them to try and learn from them, and to search for a best interpretation. Surprisingly it helps me to understand Christianity in a greater way.

I do not understand God, I feel deeply inspired by the Bible, yet the same God has inspired you through the Qua’ran. Maybe we need a certain amount of care in how we talk about other scriptures, somehow it is all down to the same God, but why?

If you read the Bible with the thought of picking out all the ‘contradictions or mistakes’ you will not find any good meaning. Holy Books are intended to inspire each and everyone of us to do something today, they are not a history lesson. If I perceive something as a mistake or a contradiction in the Bible, it causes me to search for meaning, why was it written in this way. After all I trust that God had it written in this way. So if at first it does not seem right it is me, that is at fault and not God. I feel that the Bible has such a great depth that it will keep me inspired for a lifetime, and it still keeps me searching.

Scholars have recently gone through the Bible and highlighted over 2,000 verses that spell out God’s attitude to poverty and justice. They have called it the Poverty and Justice Bible, surely this on its own is worth searching for.

In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor.

Eric

 

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

And thank you too.


When you guys post exerts from the Qu’ran, I read them to try and learn from them, and to search for a best interpretation. Surprisingly it helps me to understand Christianity in a greater way.

I do not understand God, I feel deeply inspired by the Bible, yet the same God has inspired you through the Qua’ran. Maybe we need a certain amount of care in how we talk about other scriptures, somehow it is all down to the same God, but why?

If you read the Bible with the thought of picking out all the ‘contradictions or mistakes’ you will not find any good meaning. Holy Books are intended to inspire each and everyone of us to do something today, they are not a history lesson. If I perceive something as a mistake or a contradiction in the Bible, it causes me to search for meaning, why was it written in this way. After all I trust that God had it written in this way. So if at first it does not seem right it is me, that is at fault and not God. I feel that the Bible has such a great depth that it will keep me inspired for a lifetime, and it still keeps me searching.

Scholars have recently gone through the Bible and highlighted over 2,000 verses that spell out God’s attitude to poverty and justice. They have called it the Poverty and Justice Bible, surely this on its own is worth searching for.

In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor.

Eric

eric, i was never a christian even though i was brought up in a british family in the UK, my dad was atheist, mum vaguely christian but that was it and we were never christened due to a family argument with the local vicar.

But when i came to a belief in a creator i did pick up a bible, i did try to read it and i saw good moral guidance there and tried to follow it.

but i could never accept that this was the true word of God as i saw it because of the problems i saw in it, and this was very upsetting as no matter how many different vicars, priests, lay preachers i contacted none could explain the problems to my satisfaction.

The Quran however is the book i wanted the bible to be, as so many former christians say, it has the moral code and guidance but without the problems precisely because it is not changed or has the contradiction problems i saw in the bible.

 

[glo]

I agree with Eric.

Perhaps we just have to come to accept that different people react differently to different 'holy books'.
Perhaps this is to do with our personalities or how we were brought up or God chooses to speak to us individually.

This thread seems to have gone round in circles for a while.

Some people seem to look for clear instructions, for a 'do's-and-don'ts-manual'. The Bible probably isn't that kind of book.
Whilst it does contain some instructions, it also contains poetry and prayer and accounts of historic events.

It is the very process of reading and pondering, of questioning and searching, which makes my faith in God grow. I am forever trying to get to know him better and understand his will for me better. I find it very exciting really!

All the while he is guiding me through scripture, but also through prompting me directly.
The other night I felt a deep need to repent of something I have done wrong. Prompted in such a way I picked up the Bible and read Psalm 51 - which had me in tears on my knees on the sitting room floor in the middle of the night.

I am aware that many people fail to see the divine in the Bible. I for one cannot comprehend how anyone can miss it.

I pray that wherever we are in our journey with God we will continue to listen to him, to put aside our own pride, to come to God with humility.
As Psalm 139 says:

Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

peace

 

[Keltoi]

so you admit you follow a flawed set of documents that you cannot tell whether one thing is a fact or another?

I didn't say anything about a flaw. As Glo mentioned, this boils down to how we look at our holy book as compared to how Muslims look at the Qu'ran. When it comes to the Gospel accounts, we understand that they are a record of events from individual human perspectives. Humanity is the conduit for the Word of God, as God does not write or publish books. As in all matters of faith, it comes down to what one accepts as the Word of God and what are divinely inspired writings.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I didn't say anything about a flaw. As Glo mentioned, this boils down to how we look at our holy book as compared to how Muslims look at the Qu'ran. When it comes to the Gospel accounts, we understand that they are a record of events from individual human perspectives. Humanity is the conduit for the Word of God, as God does not write or publish books. As in all matters of faith, it comes down to what one accepts as the Word of God and what are divinely inspired writings.

do you not accept that the ten commandmants were written by our creator?

 

[Keltoi]

do you not accept that the ten commandmants were written by our creator?

I accept that the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain were indeed the Word of God, yes.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I accept that the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain were indeed the Word of God, yes.

then you have just contradicted your previous post.

 

[Keltoi]

then you have just contradicted your previous post.

No, I don't believe I did. I said that God does not write or publish books. I said that in the context of the Gospel accounts and the Old Testament. Of course the tablets that Moses brought down were the work of God, but when we are referring to the Bible or the Qu'ran, neither Christians nor Muslims believe God zapped them into existence. They are written by the hands of men. Yes, I understand that Muslims believe the Qu'ran is the direct uncorrupted work of God, but most Christians wouldn't make that claim about the Bible. We believe it to be a record of God's interaction with mankind. Written by the hands of men, divinely inspired, to tell the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[Dawud_uk]

No, I don't believe I did. I said that God does not write or publish books. I said that in the context of the Gospel accounts and the Old Testament. Of course the tablets that Moses brought down were the work of God, but when we are referring to the Bible or the Qu'ran, neither Christians nor Muslims believe God zapped them into existence. They are written by the hands of men. Yes, I understand that Muslims believe the Qu'ran is the direct uncorrupted work of God, but most Christians wouldn't make that claim about the Bible. We believe it to be a record of God's interaction with mankind. Written by the hands of men, divinely inspired, to tell the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ.

then we are back to the old point i made, did God inspire mistakes? why didnt he inspire true accounts without contradictions? was he deliberately trying to confuse people?

 

[Banu_Hashim]

No, I don't believe I did. I said that God does not write or publish books. I said that in the context of the Gospel accounts and the Old Testament. Of course the tablets that Moses brought down were the work of God, but when we are referring to the Bible or the Qu'ran, neither Christians nor Muslims believe God zapped them into existence. They are written by the hands of men. Yes, I understand that Muslims believe the Qu'ran is the direct uncorrupted work of God, but most Christians wouldn't make that claim about the Bible. We believe it to be a record of God's interaction with mankind. Written by the hands of men, divinely inspired, to tell the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ.

We, as Muslims say that Allah instructed Muhammad (SAWS) directly via the Angel Jibraeel (AS) (Gabriel). In this sense, the Qur'an is directly the word of God. At the time of the prophet, the primary method of transmission was orally, hence "Al-Qur'an" the literal meaning of which is "the recitation". It was during the Khalifat of Uthman (RA), that Al-Qur'an was standardised as a book to protect the sanctity of the word of God.

But the Qur'an is reffered to as kitaab. As are the other Books of Allah: Taurah (Torah), Injeel (Bible), Zabur (Pslams).

 

[Keltoi]

then we are back to the old point i made, did God inspire mistakes? why didnt he inspire true accounts without contradictions? was he deliberately trying to confuse people?

I'm not exactly sure what contradictions you are referring to, but in terms of the Gospel account it is a matter of perspective. The individual authors of the Gospel wrote their summations of Christ's life through the lens of their own perspective and through the lens of those they were summarizing to. That doesn't mean they weren't inspired by truth, it simply means they had different elements they focused on depending upon the audience they were addressing. We take the Gospel accounts as a whole and put them together to produce what we know of Christ's work on Earth and His gift of salvation. The New Testament is not about reciting sentences, it is intended to tell people of a miraculous event and the salvation offered through the actions of Jesus Christ.

 

[Keltoi]

We, as Muslims say that Allah instructed Muhammad (SAWS) directly via the Angel Jibraeel (AS) (Gabriel). In this sense, the Qur'an is directly the word of God. At the time of the prophet, the primary method of transmission was orally, hence "Al-Qur'an" the literal meaning of which is "the recitation". It was during the Khalifat of Uthman (RA), that Al-Qur'an was standardised as a book to protect the sanctity of the word of God.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That is not how Christians view the Bible however, which is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I'm not exactly sure what contradictions you are referring to, but in terms of the Gospel account it is a matter of perspective. The individual authors of the Gospel wrote their summations of Christ's life through the lens of their own perspective and through the lens of those they were summarizing to. That doesn't mean they weren't inspired by truth, it simply means they had different elements they focused on depending upon the audience they were addressing. We take the Gospel accounts as a whole and put them together to produce what we know of Christ's work on Earth and His gift of salvation. The New Testament is not about reciting sentences, it is intended to tell people of a miraculous event and the salvation offered through the actions of Jesus Christ.

the title of the thread is kinda what i was referring to as only one of the many contradictions or where did jesus first meet peter or how did judus die? there are many contradictions.

 

[Banu_Hashim]

Yes, I'm aware of that. That is not how Christians view the Bible however, which is the point I was trying to make.

Do Christians not view the Bible as historically accurate, i.e. the Word of God? Such as the the great flood at the time of Noah (AS). Or is that regarded as the "Old Testament". What exactly do poeple mean when they refer to "the Bible"? Is it just the gospels?

 

[Keltoi]

Do Christians not view the Bible as historically accurate, i.e. the Word of God? Such as the the great flood at the time of Noah (AS). Or is that regarded as the "Old Testament". What exactly do poeple mean when they refer to "the Bible"? Is it just the gospels?

I think you are mixing two issues, meaning "historically accurate" and the "Word of God." Of course when it comes to events such as the Great Flood we do consider that to be an historical event. However, when it comes to every word and letter in the Bible as the direct dictated words of the Creator...no, that isn't what we claim. The Bible is written by men, inspired by the work of God in their lives and the lives of their people.

When we say Bible, we are referring to the OT and the NT. The Gospel is contained within the NT.

 

[Banu_Hashim]

I think you are mixing two issues, meaning "historically accurate" and the "Word of God." Of course when it comes to events such as the Great Flood we do consider that to be an historical event. However, when it comes to every word and letter in the Bible as the direct dictated words of the Creator...no, that isn't what we claim. The Bible is written by men, inspired by the work of God in their lives and the lives of their people.

When we say Bible, we are referring to the OT and the NT. The Gospel is contained within the NT.

Right, OK. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Dawud_uk]

keltoi,

ok let me put it another way for you...

why did God choose to place his message to mankind, belief in which lays salvation according to you, within a book that has flaws and contradictions?

 

[Umar001]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

Just as a quick comment, if one already believes a book to be from God then no matter the contradictions one can always resort to saying that they are placed in there by God to highlight a deeper truth.

The point of the thread, I assume, is to go beyond that, starting from a more neutral point, not starting by saying 'This is the word of God thus...' but rather saying, 'Can this be the word of God if it has such discrepencies?'

Br.al-Habeshi

 

[Keltoi]

It must be understood that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years. Each individual author wrote with a different style, a different perspective, to a different audience, and for a different purpose. There will obviously be differences. There are a few instances where verses seem to contradict another, but most if not all can be reconciled by reading them in context.

It might be an issue if Christ had made contradictory statements about the path to salvation or the nature of God and what He expects of us.

 

[glo]

.
why did God choose to place his message to mankind, belief in which lays salvation according to you, within a book that has flaws and contradictions?

'Can this be the word of God if it has such discrepencies?'

Why should God choose flawed humans to write a book about him?

The true answer is, I don't know.
It is always a risky business to make assumptions about God's will and purpose, but perhaps he "chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; [and] chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong" (1 Corinthians 1:27)
Perhaps he did so, so people like you and I can still sit here, 2000 years later, feeling challenged, wanting answers, searching, studying, debating ... and ever getting closer to the truth.

This thread continues to go round in circles because you are trying to compare two books which are very different in nature.
It doesn't make sense to expect the Bible to be like the Qu'ran - and then to criticise it for it's shortcomings, just as it wouldn't make sense to do so vice versa.

Muslims believe the Qu'ran to be God's direct revelation to mankind.
Christians don't make the same claim of the Bible.
Of course, God does reveal himself in his Word. There is much we can learn and understand about God by studying his Word - his history with us humans, his nature and his intentions.
But God's true and final revelation comes with his Son Jesus Christ himself!

And by that I don't just mean what the gospels and the other books of the New Testament say about Jesus, his life, his teachings, his death and his resurrection.

Jesus said this about himself:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7)

Jesus reveals himself directly to us today - if we are willing to let him.
Millions of Christians across the world bear witness to the changes which occur when people accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. That is the revelation of God in us.

Of course, for Muslims that seems impossible to accept. It is foolish perhaps, even blasphemous ...
But if you want to know what Christians believe about God revealing himself in their lives - there is your answer.

Salaam