For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

[Grace Seeker]

keltoi,

ok let me put it another way for you...

why did God choose to place his message to mankind, belief in which lays salvation according to you, within a book that has flaws and contradictions?

Let me correct you. God did NOT place his message to mankind within a book at all. Oh sure, there is a book and we value it. But the book (or more appropriately, the collection of books) is just an instrument used to connect us to what God has done and is doing in this world. He came as the incarnate WORD and dwelled among us. His life, his death, his resurrection -- these events are the message. The rest of the stuff, the words of Jesus that Muslims seem to focus on so much, to a Christian who knows Jesus personally, these are just frosting on the cake. We are glad to have what we have, but we don't need his words to find either God or salvation; we need him.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Let me correct you. God did NOT place his message to mankind within a book at all. Oh sure, there is a book and we value it. But the book (or more appropriately, the collection of books) is just an instrument used to connect us to what God has done and is doing in this world. He came as the incarnate WORD and dwelled among us. His life, his death, his resurrection -- these events are the message. The rest of the stuff, the words of Jesus that Muslims seem to focus on so much, to a Christian who knows Jesus personally, these are just frosting on the cake. We are glad to have what we have, but we don't need his words to find either God or salvation; we need him.

did you ever hear jesus preach to the masses? no you didnt, so you are arguing over terms of reference, the method of getting that message to you is the bible isnt it?

so answer the question, why is this message contained within a book containing flaws and contradictions.

your answer it doesnt matter as you have some sort of spiritual connection with jesus is not correct and not evidence and i will explain as best i can.

i have spoken to people of lots of different faiths, most of them claim simular spiritual experiences. so when i have spoken to a hindu and he has told me he has been visited by his gods and goddesses and personally spoken to them and personally feels their presense as many hindus claim then you as a christian and me as a muslim can at least on this point both agree either he is lying, he is mad or he has experienced the devil who has decieved him.

now how am i to take your own experiences any different when your faith to me is also false just like his?

 

[Dawud_uk]

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidance,

i have been reading with interest all the responses and it seems to come down to this...

it is true because the book says it is true, and the book is true because the book says so.

what independent proof do you have?

otherwise your proof is not better than the proof the sikhs and hindus offer as proof of their books being true.

for example, i can prove to non muslims the Quran is the word of God by various means that dont just involve the referring to the Quran itself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

now how am i to take your own experiences any different when your faith to me is also false just like his?

You won't. But you put the question to me as a Christian, and I still tell you that for me the message is not in the book, but in the life of Jesus. That life was testified to and leading people to Jesus long before the book was ever written. The book is just a means by which we pass testimony of that life on from one generation to the next, but you make a mistake if you think that the book is the message, it merely points to the one who is himself the message.

 

[Dawud_uk]

You won't. But you put the question to me as a Christian, and I still tell you that for me the message is not in the book, but in the life of Jesus. That life was testified to and leading people to Jesus long before the book was ever written. The book is just a means by which we pass testimony of that life on from one generation to the next, but you make a mistake if you think that the book is the message, it merely points to the one who is himself the message.

yes i got that point, to avoid arguing over a minor point let me rephrase my previous question just for you.

why would God choose to place the means of learning about the message in a document that is flawed and contradictory?

 

[glo]

why would God choose to place the means of learning about the message in a document that is flawed and contradictory?

Dawud, why do you keep repeating the same question over and over?

Being a mother that's a strategy I sometimes recognise in my own children - usually when they have asked me a question to which I have given an answer contrary to the one they were hoping for ... :giggling:

So, I wonder what answer it is you may be hoping to hear?
Perhaps something like "O goodness, Dawud is right ... how could I have been so mistaken all those years??!"
(Apologies for being in a slightly mischievious mood today ... )

Joking aside, all Christians who seriously read and study the Bible have to sooner or later consider the question you have asked in this thread.
I think Keltoi, Grace Seeker and I have given very clear reasons as to why the 'imperfections' of the Bible do not affect our faith.
If you read our replies carefully, you will find the answer to your question - and hopefully you will be able to respect that this is what we believe and hold dear.

The immediate relationship with God through Jesus, which Grace Seeker speaks about, is something I know myself and can relate to very well.
I believe that it is that relationship, which makes me a Christian. Knowing and studying the Bible just helps me to put it into context.
Those, who do not know this relationship with God probably find it impossible to comprehend.

I feel I have explained my answers to you as best as I possibly can.
I can see that you cannot agree with our Christian view. Since you have chosen Islam as your path I can understand that. I wouldn't expect you to agree. But I would kindly ask you to try to respect those views as our faith - even if you cannot agree with them.

I don't feel there is anything else I can contribute to this thread.

Dawud, I wish you well on your journey with God. May he soften your heart and grant you a spirit of peace.

Salaam

 

[Umar001]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

It is not just about comparing Qur'an and Bible, that sometimes happens and it can be wrong, but it is beyond that.

Trusting a source of unknown origins which may contradict itself and shows signs of having being changed is not how the Qur'an is revealed.

It is a principle which can be applied to different things, court cases, Biblical or Qur'anic testimony, historical research etc.

For example, your statement:

Jesus said this about himself:​

Followed by a quote from the Gospel according to John is something which should be looked into, if I said so and so said "you idiot" one would only do well to first verify that.

When a Muslim or a Christian says the Bible says or the Qur'an says, the receieving party if sensible enough will ask, ''what's the reference''.

This is the point I am making.

Br.'Eesa

 

[ninetrey]

esselamu aleikum

i think, not know, that Isas (Jesus) last words were Allahu Akbar either
in arabic or in aramaic.

 

[Grace Seeker]

yes i got that point, to avoid arguing over a minor point let me rephrase my previous question just for you.

why would God choose to place the means of learning about the message in a document that is flawed and contradictory?

God didn't. People did. God lived out the message by actually dwelling among us, and then entrusted the disemination of that message to faithful men who first verbally told the story to those they knew, later travelled to share it with those they didn't know, and then finally wrote about it to preserve the story of their own experience for future generations. But God still uses the direct approach, as his Holy Spirit continues to convict people with regard to sin, to direct people into the knowledge of truth and into righteousness.

 

[Dawud_uk]

God didn't. People did. God lived out the message by actually dwelling among us, and then entrusted the disemination of that message to faithful men who first verbally told the story to those they knew, later travelled to share it with those they didn't know, and then finally wrote about it to preserve the story of their own experience for future generations. But God still uses the direct approach, as his Holy Spirit continues to convict people with regard to sin, to direct people into the knowledge of truth and into righteousness.

then by that definition your God is less powerful, Allah determines all things, the good and the bad and you are by your own and others admission on here following a book that has flaws and contradictions.

however many words you attempt to use you cannot get away from the fact that the basis of christian docterine is this book, the bible.

 

[Grace Seeker]

then by that definition your God is less powerful, Allah determines all things, the good and the bad and you are by your own and others admission on here following a book that has flaws and contradictions.

however many words you attempt to use you cannot get away from the fact that the basis of christian docterine is this book, the bible.

I'm not sure why that makes "my God" less powerful. After all what God can do and what God does do are two different things. Additionally, if Allah determines all things, and I am, by your definition, following a book that is flawed, is that not something that Allah has determined? Who am I to differ with his deterimination?

Now, as to the part of your post that made sense: "the basis of christian docterine is this book, the bible." On that you are correct. But the Christian message and Christian doctrine, though similar, are not identical. Maybe doctrine and message are identical in Islam, but they are not in Christianity. Let me illustrate with a comment made on a Christian forum between two Christians.

Christian #1: How do does one defend Arminianism?

(Note: for those who may not be familiar with Christian theology and doctrine, there are two great camps in Christian theology, essentially debated endlessly.
(1) Calvinism which says that God because of the ultimate sovereignty of God, that this means God predetermines who will and who will not be saved and that Christ's atoning work only applies to those who God has elected for salvation. And that if you are chosen, God's grace is irresistable; and that if not chosen, it is unattainable.
(2) Arminianism which says that because humans have free will that they are free agents with regard to accepting or rejecting God's offering of grace. That such grace is offered freely to all, and therefore that Christ's atoning sacrifice was made on behalf of all, but that it is only effective in the lives of those who willingly receive it.
Both groups have strong biblical verses to support that contending views.)

Christian #2: Predestination versus Free will? This may sound horrible, but personally I don't care. It doesn't effect my spiritual walk at all. An elder once told me. Pray to God like it's all up to God. But let your actions and decisions be made like its all up to you. So, suppose I did know the answer, it wouldn't effect my life either way. I'd still follow the same guidelines. It's doctrine that doesn't have any practical life applications.



So you see, there is lots of room to debate Christian doctrine, and with or without the book some of it is going to be right and some of it is going to be wrong. But important as doctrine is, right doctrine isn't the key for Christian living, putting God's message of love and salvation made available to us in Jesus Christ to work in one's life is. Ultimately Christian praxis trumphs Christian beliefs. (See Mattew 25 and James 2 for biblical support of that worldview, but be warned doing so returns us to a discussion of doctrine.)

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

for example, i can prove to non muslims the Quran is the word of God by various means that dont just involve the referring to the Quran itself

What you claim as proof may be full of flaws and contradictions, because I have not seen your proof, and I am a non- Muslim.

I do believe we have to be very careful in how we use our proof against others.

In the spirit of praying to the One God who hears all our prayers.

Eric

 

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

What you claim as proof may be full of flaws and contradictions, because I have not seen your proof, and I am a non- Muslim.

I do believe we have to be very careful in how we use our proof against others.

In the spirit of praying to the One God who hears all our prayers.

Eric

peace eric,

just about every former christian who becomes muslim says the Quran is the book they wanted the bible to be, now you are on a muslim messageboard so will be easy if you want someone to send one to you so you can at least check out the evidence.

i keep a stock of them myself if you want me to post you one.

i agree we have to use proof carefully so as not to say something about Allah he has not said himself which would be blasphemy which is why i was always taught if i dont know the answer to say i dont know.

 

[Zamtsa]

What would you consider to be the Word of God? Every sentence that Christ uttered? Or the Word that Christ taught, as the Sermon on the Mount?

I didn't say the particular words "Why have you forsaken me" were part of a parable, I was responding to your assertion that to understand Christ only required a literal reading of His words. In some cases that was true, but in others it requires more thought and understanding of Scripture.

Perhaps He wasn't teaching anything, and this was a literal cry of despair. Or perhaps He was still teaching, with use of an OT Psalm. As we have established, it is unknown.


Christ's time on the cross wasn't about looking for anything or teaching anything. It was suffering. During this time of suffering, Christ is said to have uttered seven statements. Some of them profound, some of them as simple as "I am thirsty." Christ's cries of pain and despair are a reminder of what He was going through. As for the particular sentence in question, we have established there is no proveable evidence as to what it meant or its significance.


The demons who entered the pigs led to their destruction. Christ simply removed them from the individual and allowed them to enter the pigs. Why? Who knows. It was obvious from the verse that Christ could have sent them to the "abyss". He did not.

And you are ignoring the verses I cited for you. There is righteous anger, which is not anger about what one has said about you, but about what one is doing to others. Should God not be angry with those who hurt the innocent? Unrighteous anger, as outlined in Matthew 5:22, is destructive anger and unnecessarily demeaning. Of course Christ was angered by the acts of the Pharisees.

Talk about playing with words. Okay, Christ, as a human being, could have fallen into temptation. All it would have taken was Christ ignoring the Will of God. However, Christ could not be tempted into doing that. He endured many days of Satan's temptations, and was not swayed by those temptations.


I didn't say resisting temptation makes one sinless. I stated that Christ, who did not have a sinful nature, could not be tempted.

The Jesus in the Bible shouted "Eli, Eli lama sabachtani." Eli means my God.

Why didn't the crucified man said "Aba, Aba lama sabachtani." Aba means father.

Why did Jesus in the Bible never said that he was going to sacrifice himself to human kind with "his blood,"?

Why did 'son of God'(in inverted comas) eaten and eat food? If God had/has a son wouldn't that man not as simbolically a food and wouldn't he be a non eating being?

In the Dead Sea Scrolls even written that he did Polygyny. He was married with more than 1 wife(Polygyny).

The Dead Sea Scrolls was not only about the written things prior to Jesus. Because the excavation was stop for the reason that it was found a source in there which wrote that Almasih Jesus Ibn Maryam Rasulullah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Salaam was doing Polygyny.


May peace, development and save from guile be upon who follow the guidance.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

just about every former christian who becomes muslim says the Quran is the book they wanted the bible to be, now you are on a muslim messageboard so will be easy if you want someone to send one to you so you can at least check out the evidence.

I am at peace with my faith, I know you have good intentions and mean well, but I came to this forum in the hope of fostering interfaith friendship. We are all created by the same God, my beliefs hang on the greatest commandments and justice for all people.

If we are to use Holy Scriptures to compete against each other, then it should be in doing good deeds to bring glory to God and justice and peace for the oppressed, marginalised and poor.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all the poor and oppressed people.

Eric

 

[Grace Seeker]

In the Dead Sea Scrolls even written that he did Polygyny. He was married with more than 1 wife(Polygyny).

The Dead Sea Scrolls was not only about the written things prior to Jesus. Because the excavation was stop for the reason that it was found a source in there which wrote that Almasih Jesus Ibn Maryam Rasulullah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Salaam was doing Polygyny.

You posted this 5 days ago in another thread, I asked you for a source and you provided none. So, I offer these sources:

Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

Source: 25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls

And in terms of the quest for the historical Jesus, what does the story of the Essenes tell us? What light does it cast on his life and times?

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.

Source: FRONTLINE: The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls


Now the DSS are continuing to be researched to this day, and perhaps you have something new that the above websites did not have. If Jesus is mentioned at all in the DSS, be it referring to a marriage or something else, I would like to have the manuscript reference, as there are some who want to suggest that Jesus wasn't even a real person because they insist that he is never mentioned in contemporaneous writings of his day.

 

[Follower]

Hadith are not the Word of GOD, the Gospel is the Word of GOD.

 

[Follower]

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

You must go to the Aramaic reading of the Bible to receive the full message of Jesus' last words on the cross-

Matthew 27
46 And about the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

50 Then again Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and gave up his spirit. [go to Luke and John to read the actual words]

Mark 15
34 And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out in a load voice and said, Eil! Eil! lmana shwaqthani, that is “My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

Luke 23
46 And Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My Father, Into your hands I place my spirit! He said this and it was finished

John 19
30 And when he had taken that vinegar Yeshua said, Behold, it is finished! And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

then later:
Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

[Dawud_uk]

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

You must go to the Aramaic reading of the Bible to receive the full message of Jesus' last words on the cross-

Matthew 27
46 And about the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

50 Then again Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and gave up his spirit. [go to Luke and John to read the actual words]

Mark 15
34 And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out in a load voice and said, Eil! Eil! lmana shwaqthani, that is “My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

Luke 23
46 And Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My Father, Into your hands I place my spirit! He said this and it was finished

John 19
30 And when he had taken that vinegar Yeshua said, Behold, it is finished! And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

then later:
Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

i understood there were very few of the original aramaic parchments that survived due to the early church burning so many once they translated them into greek.

and thanks for the extra contradiction in matthew, now we have three different accounts.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

and thanks for the extra contradiction in matthew, now we have three different accounts

Follower asked you a question, do you want the last words of Jesus on the cross, or the last words before he ascended into heaven. The passages he gave covered these two separate events in time, this is not a contradiction.

Mathew 28
Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You might reflect on these great claims, as I understand Islam recognises the authority of Jesus.
I believe we have to be very careful about our views on other faiths, we answer to the same God.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric