For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

[Follower]

LOL!! That is not a contradiction. Matthew did not record the words that Jesus used when He cried out. It is not denying it. It is possible he did not hear the words- maybe he was further away from the cross then the other eyewitnesses.

But really which last words do you want?

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

What are Jesus' last words according to the Quran?

Somone asked - Why should God choose flawed humans to write a book about him?

That is all there is- flawed humans. Even according to your Quran the only one not flawed is Jesus, who is recorded as being pure and faultless.

 

[Dawud_uk]

LOL!! That is not a contradiction. Matthew did not record the words that Jesus used when He cried out. It is not denying it. It is possible he did not hear the words- maybe he was further away from the cross then the other eyewitnesses.

But really which last words do you want?

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

What are Jesus' last words according to the Quran?

Somone asked - Why should God choose flawed humans to write a book about him?

That is all there is- flawed humans. Even according to your Quran the only one not flawed is Jesus, who is recorded as being pure and faultless.

your book is flawed and faulty, hence all the problems with it and why i dont follow it. it is a test that you can subject the Quran to as well, it is a challenge by God in his last and final testament to mankind, if this is a book not from Allah then in it you would find many flaws and contradictions.

as you say humans are flawed then if this was a book not from God and written by man then it would be flawed.

so put it to the test.

 

[Follower]

So quick to call flawed that your Quran validates!!

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-inspired.html
God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God

Too many humans in this mix:
Allah spoke to the angel, who spoke to Mohammad, who spoke to the scribes!!

 

[Grace Seeker]

i understood there were very few of the original aramaic parchments that survived due to the early church burning so many once they translated them into greek.

If you are saying that the original writings for the New Testament were all written first in Aramaic and then translated into Greek, with the subsequent burning of those originals, I'm afraid you have been seriously misinformed. Consider simply how much of the New Testament consists of letters written to churches in Greece and Greek-speaking Asia minor. Why would any of these have ever been written in anything but Greek to begin with?

Consider that the Gospel of Luke was written by a Greek-speaking gentile and to other Greek-speaking gentiles. Why would it have been written in Aramaic?

Consider that the Gospel of John was written by the apostle after he had been living in the Greek-speaking world for many years and was also intended primarily for a Greek-speaking audience. Why would it have been written in Aramaic?

I'll give you that there is a possiblity that the Gospel of Matthew might have been originally composed in Hebrew (or perhaps Aramaic) before being re-written in Greek, but that cannot be shown to be true, only speculated about.

And, if the church made the effort, as it can be shown that it did, to translate the scriptures out of Greek into other languages, why would they have burned the original copies if they had them?

I suspect you need to find better sources if you are trying to educate yourself on the origin of the Christian scriptures, for what you have shared just doesn't make logical sense, let alone have any basis in actual fact.

 

[Follower]

graceseeker- Dawud_uk was replying to my statement - "You must go to the Aramaic reading of the Bible to receive the full message of Jesus' last words on the cross-"

Matthew 27
46 And about the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My God! My God! Why have you spared me?

46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

another aramaic translation I have found for sabachthani is- "for this I was kept"

Yntqb4
forgive, allow

 

[safallah]

can we please talk about is jesus god, i would love to show our christian friends the statements jesus made proving he is not god........................ mark 13/32

 

[Keltoi]

can we please talk about is jesus god, i would love to show our christian friends the statements jesus made proving he is not god........................ mark 13/32

There already is a thread devoted to that. I'm sure the statement you are referring to is addressed there.

 

[Dawud_uk]

If you are saying that the original writings for the New Testament were all written first in Aramaic and then translated into Greek, with the subsequent burning of those originals, I'm afraid you have been seriously misinformed. Consider simply how much of the New Testament consists of letters written to churches in Greece and Greek-speaking Asia minor. Why would any of these have ever been written in anything but Greek to begin with?

Consider that the Gospel of Luke was written by a Greek-speaking gentile and to other Greek-speaking gentiles. Why would it have been written in Aramaic?

Consider that the Gospel of John was written by the apostle after he had been living in the Greek-speaking world for many years and was also intended primarily for a Greek-speaking audience. Why would it have been written in Aramaic?

I'll give you that there is a possiblity that the Gospel of Matthew might have been originally composed in Hebrew (or perhaps Aramaic) before being re-written in Greek, but that cannot be shown to be true, only speculated about.

And, if the church made the effort, as it can be shown that it did, to translate the scriptures out of Greek into other languages, why would they have burned the original copies if they had them?

I suspect you need to find better sources if you are trying to educate yourself on the origin of the Christian scriptures, for what you have shared just doesn't make logical sense, let alone have any basis in actual fact.

the language spoken by jesus christ, peace be upon him was aramaic, the language spoken by his followers was aramaic. the language they wrote in was aramaic, the confusion when some christians claim that they wrote in hebrew was because aramaic is a spoken not a written language so even to this day it is either written down in arabic or hebrew script.

so any of the original sayings of jesus christ would have been in aramaic, not greek.

i admit many of the letters were written in greek, but these are the bits that were included by a greek speaking emperor in the bible, the rest was destroyed. there were many different gospels, different letters not included, to hold one of these documents meant you were declared outlaw, literally outside the law and anyone could do as they pleased with you and you couldnt complain to the courts or seek help and the manuscipts when found were burned as were many older aramaic documents.

this is church history, it is not contraversial, you can find it in your own histories if you look hard enough.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

..I believe the Gospels are much more akin to the Hadiths in their narrative nature...
Peace

hey , that's an interesting comment . Pl. explain more . Christians believe Bible is words of God / writers are inspired by God . But I don't think Muslims believe Hadith are inspired by God ( unless Hadith Qursi ).

 

[glo]

Salaam/peace

..I believe the Gospels are much more akin to the Hadiths in their narrative nature...
Peace

hey , that's an interesting comment . Pl. explain more . Christians believe Bible is words of God / writers are inspired by God . But I don't think Muslims believe Hadith are inspired by God ( unless Hadith Qursi ).

Yes, Christians believe that the Bible writers were inspired by God.
(I think we have explored that to excess in this thread ... so I won't go into that again. I think if you read the whole thread you will get a good picture of how Christians view the Bible )

I am speaking about the narrative writing style of the gospels. It reads like a story, an eye witness account.
As I understand the hadiths are very similar.

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

the language spoken by jesus christ, peace be upon him was aramaic, the language spoken by his followers was aramaic. the language they wrote in was aramaic, the confusion when some christians claim that they wrote in hebrew was because aramaic is a spoken not a written language so even to this day it is either written down in arabic or hebrew script.

so any of the original sayings of jesus christ would have been in aramaic, not greek.

True enough that Jesus spoke Aramaic. But this has nothing to do with what language the Bible would have been written in. While Jesus' words would have been originally spoken in Aramaic, if writing to tell a Greek-speakind world about Jesus, the stories would have been written not in the language Jesus spoke, but the language of those who would have been doing the reading. And it just so happens that the predominant language of the Roman Empire was not Aramaic, it wasn't even Latin; the lingua franca of the Roman world was Greek. So pervasive was Greek that it was the langauge of the commoner even in the city of Rome, and the language of daily commerce on the streets of Jerusalem. The common every day language is called Koine Greek, and it is the language that was used to write an order for groceries and that the writers of the documents which became the New Testament used to tell their story as well. BTW, most likely, as an educated man, and he was since he could read, Jesus would have spoken Greek as easily as he did Aramaic, for it was more universal iin his day than English is on this board.

 

[Dawud_uk]

True enough that Jesus spoke Aramaic. But this has nothing to do with what language the Bible would have been written in. While Jesus' words would have been originally spoken in Aramaic, if writing to tell a Greek-speakind world about Jesus, the stories would have been written not in the language Jesus spoke, but the language of those who would have been doing the reading. And it just so happens that the predominant language of the Roman Empire was not Aramaic, it wasn't even Latin; the lingua franca of the Roman world was Greek. So pervasive was Greek that it was the langauge of the commoner even in the city of Rome, and the language of daily commerce on the streets of Jerusalem. The common every day language is called Koine Greek, and it is the language that was used to write an order for groceries and that the writers of the documents which became the New Testament used to tell their story as well. BTW, most likely, as an educated man, and he was since he could read, Jesus would have spoken Greek as easily as he did Aramaic, for it was more universal iin his day than English is on this board.

i understand what you are saying, the parts of the bible which we have today come from greek manuscripts but this ignores two important points i am trying to put across.

1. many other documents existed which were also claimed to be part of the gospel, these were destroyed in the west by the church authorities and state after the councils of niscea where the greek pagan roman emperor precided over the council decided which documents were going to go into the bible.

2. even these greek manuscripts were not the original teachings, someone who spoke aramaic taught it, it was written down, someone else taught it to someone else in greek, so it was translated. often the chain of transmission would be quite long before it was written down. but these originals where they existed were destroyed after translation, this is a matter of church policy at the time and is not hidden by the christian historians.

neither of the two points are considered contraversial or unusual, indeed many protestant historians use them precisely to show the corruption of the texts by the offical church going back through the history of christianity.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

If you continually keep saying the Bible is full of flaws and contradictions, I might renounce Christianity and become an atheist.

You are not convincing me why Islam is any better.

If you are giving Dawah you might fare better, by keeping to the positive aspects of your faith

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ Peace

.....If you continually keep saying the Bible is full of flaws and contradictions, I might renounce Christianity and become an atheist.

haha . Dr Zakir will say , it's not that bad ; after all then u believe in Muslim's first testimony ; there is no god ....not bad

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Muslim Woman;

I know you mean well, but Dr. Zakir’s wisecracks will only leave me with atheism.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

If you continually keep saying the Bible is full of flaws and contradictions, I might renounce Christianity and become an atheist.

You are not convincing me why Islam is any better.

If you are giving Dawah you might fare better, by keeping to the positive aspects of your faith

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

if the house is no good, offering no shelter or protection, then sometimes you must raze it right down to the foundations to start building again in the correct way.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

if the house is no good, offering no shelter or protection, then sometimes you must raze it right down to the foundations to start building again in the correct way

You might want to demolish my house, but I would not trust you as a builder, you have done nothing to convince me your ways are best. You now want me to be an atheist without a house.

If you really want to turn people towards Islam, then please continue to talk about the good in Islam, and resist the temptation to criticise other faiths.

In the spirit of praying to one God

Eric

 

[Follower]

The Holy Bible has been torn down to the very foundation over years of analysis and critique, it has withstood to this day. To be fair the same test must be applied to the Quran.

 

[rpwelton]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

You might want to demolish my house, but I would not trust you as a builder, you have done nothing to convince me your ways are best. You now want me to be an atheist without a house.

If you really want to turn people towards Islam, then please continue to talk about the good in Islam, and resist the temptation to criticise other faiths.

In the spirit of praying to one God

Eric

I agree. We really must strike a balance when giving dawah to people of other faiths. We cannot focus solely on Islam, for that would not take into account what the other person believes. Likewise, we cannot focus solely on criticizing the other person's religion, because that might drive them away from God all together instead of bringing them closer to Islam.

It's a fine line to walk, but ultimately we just have to approach the conversation respectfully from both sides and treat it as a discussion, not as one person trying to ram one set of beliefs down another's throat.

 

[rpwelton]

The Holy Bible has been torn down to the very foundation over years of analysis and critique, it has withstood to this day. To be fair the same test must be applied to the Quran.

Well, the Bible has been torn apart over the centuries, and the reason it continues to "stand" is because many people are willing to overlook various issues of the Bible because they believe in the strength of its central message (well, the message of the New Testament anyways). It's a very powerful message, and it seems to transcend the very text that it is apparently based from. That's why the critique on the Bible doesn't really matter to most Christians; they don't really study the Bible as a "book" per say, but more for inspiration in their spiritual life.

People have tried to apply similar critiques to the Qur'an as they have to the Bible, but it has never succeeded. They have instead decided to attack the character of Muhammad because they don't find the same faults with the Qur'an as they do with the Bible.