For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?

[Hafswa]

In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful

Salaam/ Peace



imsad

I hope , u mean last post in this thread but not in the forum . If u mean u are leaving us , then my request is take a short leave & do come back :statisfie

Muslim Woman,
I couldn't bring myself to leave the forum....got a bit carried away there....guess that always happens when a cause you are passionate about is criticized a tee bit too much on the extreme.
Thanks

 

[Follower]

Matthew 15
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

At this time Israel was full of itself, pride was Jesus mirroring this as a negative example to them.

Look at the humility of the woman:

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Jesus immediately accepts the woman when she shows her humility and neddiness. Israel was not ready, they were not hunble, needy, see earlier in the verse:

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

The time had not come for all nations to be saved Jesus was still teaching Israel, until later- notice the all nations.

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

How do you explain the command to Paul? Please read: Acts 9

i think if you look at my other posts you will see i do that, but this is a thread to discuss a specific contradiction in the bible and the contradictions in general which show it as a flawed and false faith.

Again the so called contradictions actually bring a fuller message.

LOL!! Why would the early church fathers have included contradicting stories in the Holy Bible? Do you think that the people that brought the Bilbe together couldn't see the supposed contradictions? GOD guided todays Bible to be as it is. You are questioning GOD?

LOL!! In a court very seldom do eyewitnesses have exactly the same story. if they do than I would question if they hadn't gotten together to figure out what they were going to say.

Did we ever decide?

Are you asking about Jesus last words on the cross, before His assenscion, our last day of Judgement?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Glo, Thank you for the advice. I agree, the trap seemed to unfold later as the thread continued to grow. Later on I realised that such debates as much as they are geared at trying to shake our faith, make us raise up and state like Paul in Romans 1:16" I am not ashamed of the Gospel beacaue it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first to the Jew then to the Gentile" . I am doing fine now Even managed to comment on some posts later on .
Thank you again and Bless you.

Sounds like you are exhorting blind faith?

Basically what you said equates to...

"I realized that the points the debates brought up could shake my faith, nevertheless I covered my ears and continued believing"

I believe that Allah loves informed faith as opposed to blind faith.

"That person who shall pursue the path of knowledge, God will direct him to the path of Paradise; and verily the superiority of a learned man over an ignorant worshipper is like that of the full moon over all the stars "

 

[Hafswa]

Sounds like you are exhorting blind faith?

Basically what you said equates to...

"I realized that the points the debates brought up could shake my faith, nevertheless I covered my ears and continued believing"

I believe that Allah loves informed faith as opposed to blind faith.

"That person who shall pursue the path of knowledge, God will direct him to the path of Paradise; and verily the superiority of a learned man over an ignorant worshipper is like that of the full moon over all the stars "

You can translate my post in any way after all we are all entitiled to express your opinion. I am a Christian and choose to remain so irrespective of what Muslims, Buddhists or Aethists may think. It's between me and God not us.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

Sounds like you are exhorting blind faith?

I believe that Allah loves informed faith as opposed to blind faith.

You start of by saying I believe, so why is it necessary for us to believe as you believe?

And you give yourself the credit that your beliefs are informed, but people who believe differently use blind faith, that seems a tad unfair.

We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers, and it is for God to judge the sincerity of both our beliefs and faith.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

 

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;





You start of by saying I believe, so why is it necessary for us to believe as you believe?

And you give yourself the credit that your beliefs are informed, but people who believe differently use blind faith, that seems a tad unfair.

We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers, and it is for God to judge the sincerity of both our beliefs and faith.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

eric, i dont think anyone here doubts your sincerity, you come across as a very sincere person.

however, the hindus i meet when doing my islam information table seem just as sincere as the christians, some of the more educated amongst them even say there is only one creator.

however they worship this creator through different aspects or intermediaries, this is the same as the trinity and the saints that catholics and other christians worship.

now should we leave them also to their faith and to believe blindly? or should we question them, point out the follies of their belief.

even the devil believes in one creator, one maker, one we all answer to but he is still a disbeliever as he doesnt submit.

believing in a creator we all answer to doesnt mean we leave people alone, it puts a person one up from an atheist, it means we have a shared common understanding we can build on but such people can still enter hellfire for their disbelief.

as such, you as a christian, and me as a muslim, both wanting the best should try to guide those we see as misguided should we not? not just leave it to God on the day of judgement.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This isn't what this thread is about, so I hope Dawud will forgive me for going off on a tangent, but the comment below highlights one of the signficant differences between Christians and Muslims with regard to our respective understandings of what faith is and what it is not.

even the devil believes in one creator, one maker, one we all answer to but he is still a disbeliever as he doesnt submit.

Now, I completely agree that the devil believes in one creator, one maker, etc. The devil believes because he knows. He has absolute knowledge, even better than you or I have.

However, Dawud says that the devil believes but is still a disbeliever because he doesn't submit. Now, for me it is illogical to say that one both believes and is a disbeliever. But there are plenty of logical inconsistencies within Christianity, so that isn't really my point.

Rather while the Muslim focuses on the importance of belief evidence by submission, the Christian has a different focus.

The Christian agrees that the devil believes, but the problem is that the devil does not trust. The devil believes because he knows certain facts, but because he doesn't trust in God and accept him in authority over himself, the devil cannot have actual faith in God. It is all head knowledge and no heart knowledge.

I suppose that type of discrimination may not make much sense to a non-Christian. But for a Christian that is the essential element. Does one put their trust in what God has done/is doing? Submission for the Christian comes out of this personal relationship, not out of acknowledging certain facts with regard to God or acquiessing to a certain set of rules that God has provided. Christian faith is not in believing certain things about God, but rather it is believing in God himself. Faith is nothing more than trusting in God as the one best suited to be ruler of the universe rather than one's self, and then just trying to live a life that reflects that sort of trust and relationship.



I now return you the last words of Jesus....

...which (if we are talking about from the Cross) I accept as including the phrase: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." It is an example of the type of trust that I just referred to when talking about the Christian understanding of what it means to have faith in God rather than in a set of beliefs about God.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

you as a christian, and me as a muslim, both wanting the best should try to guide those we see as misguided should we not?

But if I were to follow your advice, then I should guide you towards Christianity, which is the one true faith.

But.

You would not be happy with my persistent preaching. However I feel scriptures are intended more to inspire us to change ourselves, than they are for us to try and change other people.

When we try and find the last words of Jesus, it seems more important that we search for meaning and what they inspire me to do, rather than debate what the words are.

In the spirit of praying to one God

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

you as a christian, and me as a muslim, both wanting the best.

The best comes down to moral values, justice for all people, justice for the poor and oppressed, family values, building caring communities, seeking peace on Earth.

Muslims, Christians, Hindu and atheist can walk side be side and strive for these values together.

If we could do these things together we could indeed bring glory to God

In the spirit of praying to one God.

Eric

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;





You start of by saying I believe, so why is it necessary for us to believe as you believe?

And you give yourself the credit that your beliefs are informed, but people who believe differently use blind faith, that seems a tad unfair.

We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers, and it is for God to judge the sincerity of both our beliefs and faith.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

You bring up a moot point.

If you don't believe that God prefers informed faith as opposed to blind faith, then we are talking about two different gods and all our talk is in vain.

 

[Hafswa]

You bring up a moot point.

If you don't believe that God prefers informed faith as opposed to blind faith, then we are talking about two different gods and all our talk is in vain.

All faith has to be informed....the assurance in your heart that beyond a shadow of a doubt that your conviction is sure based on the truths that are taught and that you yourself have confirmed from the holy book (each religion with its own),communication with God in prayer and fasting revealing more aspects of God's nature etc.
All these lead to ultimately prove that your religions conviction is not be a simply following of heresay or a birth right. It has been tested, tried and conclusively formed your belief.

Question: We all believe that new leaders will bring something new into the world.I'd say because we have faith and hope that they will not carryon like those before them. What is the basis of this faith?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

I guess I have informed faith because I did a lot of searching before I came to Christianity.

But I also have blind faith, if I can just give an example of what I think blind faith is…

About a year ago I become a Street Pastor and this does not involve preaching. We go out in groups of two into the community late on a Friday night where gangs, drunks, drugs, violence, vandals and troubled people are. We go in the hope of bringing about some kind of care and peace at night. We have no power or authority to do anything, we have no agenda or targets to meet, we are just volunteers, a member of the public wearing a jacket with Street Pastors written in fluorescent letters.

I am 59 and my partner is 65, we put our trust in prayer and in God. Late one night we came across a car full of youths parked near the centre of the road, and about a dozen of their mates were fooling around in the road by the car, most of them were drinking. We walked up to the driver and asked if he could park in a safer place, he started up the car and moved it safely. We said a few words to the guys fooling around in the road, and they moved onto the pavement.

There were a couple of intimidating guys right in our face, and my little lady partner looked up to them and said, I am not afraid, strangely they backed off and seemed to become more friendly. It was only as we were able to talk with them and listen to their stories we found out they were really a good bunch. I can only say that at times when I should be feeling fear and anxiety, I experience an inner peace that surpasses all understanding. Our confidence comes from knowing there is a prayer team at the church praying for our needs and the needs of the community.

Although people are praying for me back at the church, how can I trust that God is answering these prayers, I have no proof. I would call this blind faith.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

 

[جوري]

This might end up being my last post here but I have to say this:
I joined this forum to get enlightened about Islam and as told to MZ then, to seek if Islam was a way of life, a faith I could follow and if Muslimahs would really care about me as an individual or just the fact that I had become one of them.

Ok

This thread was started with a simple question, What were Jesus' last word.

Indeed... it is an open discussion no, would you prefer a uni-directionality to the discussion so that it handles your beliefs with kid gloves?

I have read through it so far and noted the accusations, quoations of individuals who do not even share either failth, the comparissons between one faith against the other ,tempers flaring and names given to the others religion and so on. None of us is conveying conviction about what we believe in. Its just a debate about what I believe in is the truth and yours is not. Quite childish I might say.

This statement is very weighty in the mature scale--
If tempers flare, then I reckon it is your own given that I requested an indefinite ban to attend to more pressing affairs,, why or why not Christianity is the last thing on my mind unless opportunity presents itself. I suggest otherwise not investing your emotions too heavily in the opinions of others or skipping topics that shake your comfort zone all together?.

To both Christians-like me and Muslims, none of us here have displayed that attraction to ones belief.

indeed

We all were on the same level.

I doubt that. A belief is as good as its components and tenets, otherwise why invest with a life long commitment to something shady at best?
To me and the majority of non-Christians, Christianity is counter intuitive to logic and reason!

We are so busy defending our faiths rather than give accounts of why we believe in what we believe in like Woodrow did.

There is nothing to defend as far as Islam is concerned, I am not aggrieved by who believes and who doesn't, I have said as much in every post that required it, it isn't a communal effort ...

As to the account of why not Christianity, then I believe I summed it up systematically?
1-God leaving the cosmos behind to show up in Nazareth
2-God nunciates himself to a woman he is about to impregnate with himself.
3- God curses the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit
4- God having human bodily functions, and for the most part ineffectual and helpless against his rivals.
5- God praying to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before he allows himself to be crucified, not only abrogating his own commandments, forsaking himself, abandoning the universe but for something again so very counter intuitive as to 'eating sins' or atoning for them, thus giving all a carte Blanche to sin as they please, and it defines logic as how can God have such bizarre opposing personalities and still be considered 'one'?
6- God abrogating his commandments through his nemesis, from the dreams of Thomas to the alleged conversion of Paul.. is rather strange. Why can't God take care of everything whilst in our midst?
7- God is one and then three yet still one?

Does any of the above offend you? why should it, is this not the truth?

If asked" if you were not born into the religons you are in would you be still in your religion ?" what would our answer be?

See my above reply, further if you have followed my posts for a while, you'd have known I wasn't a practicing Muslim until very recently, in my mid twenties!

The rules of this forum stated that we are not here to push one into believeing any particular faith but in respect to each other, offer our opinions. Now when someone comes short of saying you are not welcome here, it makes me wonder why the creators of this forum have a section for comparative religion or even allow the users have questions addressed to Christians.

Where have I pushed my beliefs on you and actually stuck around to see them take hold? please I implore you to point it out!
If my candidness offends you, then I suggest you deal with what it is that you find offensive of what I wrote? If I strip Christianity of florid words you'll find that at the fulcrum upon which all else stands is exactly what I have summed up for you above and that is the bottom line of it!

all the best

cheers

 

[Grace Seeker]

As to the account of why not Christianity, then I believe I summed it up systematically?
1-God leaving the cosmos behind to show up in Nazareth
2-God nunciates himself to a woman he is about to impregnate with himself.
3- God curses the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit
4- God having human bodily functions, and for the most part ineffectual and helpless against his rivals.
5- God praying to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before he allows himself to be crucified, not only abrogating his own commandments, forsaking himself, abandoning the universe but for something again so very counter intuitive as to 'eating sins' or atoning for them, thus giving all a carte Blanche to sin as they please, and it defines logic as how can God have such bizarre opposing personalities and still be considered 'one'?
6- God abrogating his commandments through his nemesis, from the dreams of Thomas to the alleged conversion of Paul.. is rather strange. Why can't God take care of everything whilst in our midst?
7- God is one and then three yet still one?

Does any of the above offend you? why should it, is this not the truth?

Not all of it is the truth. For instance your creation of systematic theology suggests that God leaves the comos behind during his incarnation. The Christian view is different in that God is able to be incarnate (as the son) and omnipresent (as the Father and as the Spirit) both at the same time. This is just one place where your systematic representation of Christian theology differs from what Christians actually believe.

But you are correct in saying that God is one and then three yet still one. I know and accept that this seems to be illogical to many. So be it. It is how I understand God to describe himself in the Christian scriptures, and as I accept them as authoritative it makes perfect logic to believe them to speak truth, even if I don't understand how that truth comes into being.

 

[جوري]

Not all of it is the truth. For instance your creation of systematic theology suggests that God leaves the comos behind during his incarnation.

Reincarnation and Monotheism are at odds and more in concert with Hindu or Buddhist doctrine, except even there, they won't sell you 1/3 of the being left behind to govern the cosmos and a third hovers like a spirit to nunciate to women that she is about to be gravid with him and one third as a suckling, helpless, and sometimes angry infant!
Astghfor Allah, whenever I think a little of your beliefs it makes me so angry how you adulterate every thing from prophets to the most supreme.. meh each is to his own!

The Christian view is different in that God is able to be incarnate (as the son)

Yes, one of numerous major flaws as far as I am concerned in your ability to sell your religion!

and omnipresent (as the Father and as the Spirit) both at the same time. This is just one place where your systematic representation of Christian theology differs from what Christians actually believe.

I have reiterated above the logical flaws of Christianity, you re-telling it in windy terms doesn't make it any more appealing or logical for that matter!
I don't see how your belief system is better than Hinduism or Shintoism. It is just another pagan system under some guise of monotheism.

But you are correct in saying that God is one and then three yet still one. I know and accept that this seems to be illogical to many. So be it.

It is how I understand God to describe himself in the Christian scriptures, and as I accept them as authoritative it makes perfect logic to believe them to speak truth, even if I don't understand how that truth comes into being.

and that is where we part ways!

all the best!

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

I guess I have informed faith because I did a lot of searching before I came to Christianity.

But I also have blind faith, if I can just give an example of what I think blind faith is…

About a year ago I become a Street Pastor and this does not involve preaching. We go out in groups of two into the community late on a Friday night where gangs, drunks, drugs, violence, vandals and troubled people are. We go in the hope of bringing about some kind of care and peace at night. We have no power or authority to do anything, we have no agenda or targets to meet, we are just volunteers, a member of the public wearing a jacket with Street Pastors written in fluorescent letters.

I am 59 and my partner is 65, we put our trust in prayer and in God. Late one night we came across a car full of youths parked near the centre of the road, and about a dozen of their mates were fooling around in the road by the car, most of them were drinking. We walked up to the driver and asked if he could park in a safer place, he started up the car and moved it safely. We said a few words to the guys fooling around in the road, and they moved onto the pavement.

There were a couple of intimidating guys right in our face, and my little lady partner looked up to them and said, I am not afraid, strangely they backed off and seemed to become more friendly. It was only as we were able to talk with them and listen to their stories we found out they were really a good bunch. I can only say that at times when I should be feeling fear and anxiety, I experience an inner peace that surpasses all understanding. Our confidence comes from knowing there is a prayer team at the church praying for our needs and the needs of the community.

Although people are praying for me back at the church, how can I trust that God is answering these prayers, I have no proof. I would call this blind faith.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

Do you think that Allah does not provide for everyone? The atheists on this forum breath freely because Allah keeps them alive. You are kept safe by Allah's will.

There is more to religion than just "feeling" like Allah is granting you peace. The rich man who doesnt give to the poor may "feel" like Allah loves him because he looks around at his life of comfort and smiles.

A man may feel anything but only a feeling that is backed up by knowledge is a true blessing from Allah, all other feelings are illusions.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;


But if I were to follow your advice, then I should guide you towards Christianity, which is the one true faith.

But.

You would not be happy with my persistent preaching. However I feel scriptures are intended more to inspire us to change ourselves, than they are for us to try and change other people.

When we try and find the last words of Jesus, it seems more important that we search for meaning and what they inspire me to do, rather than debate what the words are.

In the spirit of praying to one God

Eric

Then try and do so. I will try and guide you to Islam. May the truth banish the falsehood.

One problem though, you said yourself that you arent even interested in debates and without Christianity you would be left with only atheism.

You seem like a live and let live type of person.

I am a live and try and show others how to live person.

Are both are equally good?

Not too sure seeing as how God has entrusted us with truth and you would rather keep it to yourself.


Truth puts a greater burden on you Eric. It requires you to spread it. Were you not to spread it, you would be selfishly hoarding knowledge for yourself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have reiterated above the logical flaws of Christianity, you re-telling it in windy terms doesn't make it any more appealing or logical for that matter!

No you haven't. You have reiterated things which you assert are Christian beliefs and then declared that you disagree with them being true. I accept that. What I don't accept is that all the things which you stated that Christians believe are in fact beliefs actually held by Christians.

Given that you are mistaken in ascribing them to be Christian beliefs when some of them most definitely are not Christian beliefs makes the determination of whether or not they are logical or illogical completely irrelevant.

I don't see how your belief system is better than Hinduism or Shintoism. It is just another pagan system under some guise of monotheism.

And I accept that as your view on the subject. I just don't accept your proposed systematic theology as being a correct description of actual Christian theology.

 

[جوري]

No you haven't. You have reiterated things which you assert are Christian beliefs and then declared that you disagree with them being true. I accept that. What I don't accept is that all the things which you stated that Christians believe are in fact beliefs actually held by Christians.

oh.. which one of the former listed is flawed in your opinion?

Given that you are mistaken in ascribing them to be Christian beliefs when some of them most definitely are not Christian beliefs makes the determination of whether or not they are logical or illogical completely irrelevant.

You haven't established to me why they are not of christian belief in order to step it up the extra notch.

And I accept that as your view on the subject. I just don't accept your proposed systematic theology as being a correct description of actual Christian theology.

I understand you like flowery language to hide incongruous fanciful tales, until such a time you prove me wrong. They are the correct denuded truth of Christianity upon which all else stands!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

oh.. which one of the former listed is flawed in your opinion?

Read what I already posted. You assert that Christians believe that God left the cosmos behind to show up in Nazareth. We don't. We never assert anything even close to that. Quite the contrary, we assert that God was present in heaven as always AND in Jesus of Nazareth both at the same time. And there is no fancy language in that assertion, just fancy footwork on your part to ignore what Christians actually teach and to then transplant your own misinformed views in their place. Now, you may also contend that this view is illogical, fine. Just, please, get our views right before trying to discredit them. It does no one any good to reject Christianity as illogical when the views one is rejecting aren't even actually held by Christians.