For What Did Jesus Die?

[Woodrow]

I believe that you are mistakenly accepting folk religion as if it were equal to the teachings of the Qur'an. Please give chapter and verse where this is found in the Qur'an.

While there is strong circumstantial evidence that Judas was the one crucified in Isa(as)'s place. we are not told so in the Qur'an. No where in the Qur'an can I find any name mentioned of who it was.

Hopefully those who are teaching such, are acknowledging that the belief it was Judas, is not based on the Qur'an. We have no verification that is true. Only word of mouth opinion.

Personally I hope it was Judas, but I can not prove it was and it is not a teaching of the Qur'an.

 

[Banu_Hashim]

I was not phrasing the Q'uran as a Gospel but instead hoped it would give an elaboration of His purpose on earth as a prophet according to your faith.

In Islam, all the prophets came with the same basic message which is "Tawhid". This is the concept of monotheism and the oneness of God.

 

[Imam]

Greetings,Bro Woodrow
I hope you are doing fine ....and May Allah bless you for your efforts and your time ...

I have some comments

While there is strong circumstantial evidence that Judas was the one crucified in Isa(as)'s place.

As a matter of fact I used to accept the substitution issue till not so long years ago ..... due to not reading,analyzing the verse well but mere the common interpreatations..

my doubt of such interpreatation started while reading the great Quranic commentary (tafseer alrazi) ..... there the issue was highlighted properly ....... and the linguestic analysis refuted the (substitution concept)

That they said , "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them , and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
[Qur'an 4:157


the pronoun has to be (It) or (He) ?

from (Tafseer alkashaf)
فإن قلت: { شُبّهَ } مسند إلى ماذا* ? * ؟ إن جعلته مسنداً إلى المسيح، فالمسيح مشبه به وليس بمشبه، وإن أسندته إلى المقتول فالمقتول لم يجر له ذكر قلت: هو مسند إلى الجار والمجرور وهو { لهم } كقولك خيل إليه، كأنه قيل: ولكن وقع لهم التشبيه.

English:
If we say (He was substituted) then what (He) refers to?

if it refers to Jesus ,it can't be as the interpretation claims that God substituted for Jesus a person ....

and if (he) refers to a person ,so we have to find his name before the pronoun....

if we put the pronoun he(jesus) then the meaning will be that (Jesus) appeared in another shape(another face and body) for the jews !!
and that exactly the opposite of the substitution interpreatation!! ......
the meaning makes sense if only we use (it was appeared to them so)

No where in the Qur'an can I find any name mentioned of who it was..

Exactly...

The Message of The Quran by Muhammad Asad
http://geocities.com/masad02/

The Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).

Personally I hope it was Judas.

( and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not)
[Qur'an 4:157


If the person been crucified was Juda (and had the exact physical appearance of Jesus) then logically,there was nothing of (doubts,no certain knowledge,conjecture).....

If I witnessed with my naked eyes the crucifiction of someone with the exact appearance(face and body) of Jesus, why would I follow conjecture, and feel doubts ?!!!
I think the only reasonable meaning to the verse is that they followed a false hearsay propagated not by eyewitnesses ,that Jesus was crucified.....

no wonder to find such hearsays in the east regarding important persons,especially when such persons disappear from the scene...


Peace and bless

 

[Follower]

4:157
And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

You have to look at what was going on and has been going on it is strictly about who is to blame. Christians have blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus since the day it happened.

The Quran corrects this by saying
4:158
But God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.

It was GOD's plan:

From an earlier chapter we know that the Jews were
3:54
And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

What every Muslims forgets:
10:94
So if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

You must read the accounts mentioned in the Gospels.

Think on this:

if Jesus had allowed someone to go through all the pain and suffering associated with the crucifixion in His place.

What could we say of His character as a man, prophet of GOD?

 

[Follower]

http://www.introducingjesus.org/inj005manmyth.htm

I had never heard of the following until today:

LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (c. 120-180 AD) who lived in the second century was scornful of Christ but described how he "introduce this new cult into the world" and was "crucified in Palestine" because of it. So even those who opposed Christianity accepted the reality of Jesus and some basic facts about his life and death.

MARA BAR-SERAPION, around AD 73, wrote to his son a letter which is now in the British Museum. In it he refers to Jesus as the King of the Jews, stating that they (the Jews) had crucified him.

PHLEGON was a first century historian whose 'Chronicles' have now been lost, but like Thallus (see below) is quoted by other early writers. Also like Thallus he mentions the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus saying that "an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon".

PLINY THE YOUNGER (c. 61-113 AD) was governor of Bithinia in Asia Minor around AD 110 and wrote to the emperor Trajan (for whom he worked) concerning Christians. He had been putting Christians to death for their faith and making them bow down to Trajan's statue. He records how, in their defence, the Christians described their meetings for worship which included singing "a hymn to Christ as a god".

SUETONIUS (c. 69-122 AD) another Roman historian, the source of most of what we know of the caesars from Julius Caesar to Domitian, refers to "Chrestus" (another spelling of Christus) in his 'Life of Claudius'. He reports how Claudius expelled the christians from Rome in AD 49, which is mentioned in Acts 18 v 2. Suetonius also writes of the punishment of Christians by Nero.

 

[Hafswa]

In Islam, all the prophets came with the same basic message which is "Tawhid". This is the concept of monotheism and the oneness of God.

Thanks for this

 

[Imam]

You have to look at what was going on and has been going on it is strictly about who is to blame.

The Quran corrects this by saying
4:158
But God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.

Do you know the meaning of the word (rafaaho) in the verse 4:157 ? does it mean resurrection from the death?

What every Muslims forgets:
10:94
So if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

And What you forgot is my explanation to you of such verse before..

check it again......


There is no mean to make the accounts of the Quran be reconciled with the New Testament in the issue of the so called crucifiction..... lots tried that before but failed....

 

[coddles76]

For what did Jesus Die?? Well put very simply, according to the Christians "Jesus Died for the sins of humanity" God gave his only begotten son to save the rest from sin. Its as simple as that. Now you must believe that, and the death of Jesus is a VERY important tenement of faith. If you don't believe that, then your not a believer, but this is were it becomes very complicated. What about the people who came before jesus? Are they saved? or are they lost in the wind. And what about the teachings that Jesus is GOD in flesh, that would mean that God sacrificed himself. I just find it amazing how such a complicated doctrine can be injected into the throats of people and that there are actual people out there that swallow it. I guess thats just the tests of life which many people will fail.

Then comes islam with the most beautiful description of Isa PBUH and his beautiful mother.

Quran 3:45 "Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah"

Isa PBUH is a very highly honored messanger of Allah SWT the most high. Allah does not need to sacrifice anything to save humanity nor does he need or worship. WE need to worship to save ourselves and our only savour will be our worship and the mercy of the Allah SWT the most high. The one who created the heavens and earth and can destroy it whenever he pleases. If he wills something to happen he merely has to say "BE" and it is. The doctrine of teaching to say that Allah SWT the most had to send his child to be sacrificed to save humanity is a degradation of Allah SWT the most highs powerful attributes and he is much higher than what they attribute to him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

to say that Allah SWT the most had to send his child to be sacrificed to save humanity is a degradation of Allah SWT the most highs powerful attributes and he is much higher than what they attribute to him.

I can understand how the doctrine of the incarnation might be seen as a degradation. But I don't see how the doctrine of the atonement is. Can you explain that to me? Or is the objection still b ased on the fact that Christians claim that this atonement was carried out by one who was God incarnate, so that it is really just a continued objection to the incarnation and not really about atonement at all?

 

[doorster]

....

 

[coddles76]

I can understand how the doctrine of the incarnation might be seen as a degradation. But I don't see how the doctrine of the atonement is. Can you explain that to me? Or is the objection still b ased on the fact that Christians claim that this atonement was carried out by one who was God incarnate, so that it is really just a continued objection to the incarnation and not really about atonement at all?

Hi Grace Seeker,
Great to see your still hear during the time I've been away.
If you read my explanation again you'll find that both the incarnation and the atonement is a degradation of Allah SWT high attributes. Allah SWT with his almighty attributes does not need to sacrifice a life (not of his incarnate self or his son, or any life for that matter) to redeem humanity. He has given us the free will and the tools of guidance to make that choice ourselves. Our saviour comes from our worship and deeds of goodness. Everybody is born pure and without sin, its only our actions that changes that. The power of Allah SWT is merely "BE" and it is. He doesn't need to sacrifice a life to make things happen, he just sends messengers to warn us and to do good. SIMPLE AS THAT! After that its our choice which way we wanna go. I think its pretty unfair to inherit the sins of someone else and then kill one person just to redeem them, dont you?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Grace Seeker,
Everybody is born pure and without sin, its only our actions that changes that.

You might guess that I don't find this to be true. And for that reason, I do not imagine that we can ever truly be perfect as Allah would have us be perfect. Therefore we do need a savior, someone/something from coming from outside of ourselves to save us. This savior can't be another person who is just as unrighteous as I am. It needs to be one who is possesses the righrteousness of God. No mere human being since the time of Adam and Eve had met that qualification. So, if God doesn't save us, we cannot be saved.

But we are in agreement that God can and does ultimately declare us to be something that we are not. He justifies by imputing Christ's righteousness to us. We are declared holy and worthy when the reality is that we are anything but. Nevertheless, God looking not at our sin but Christ's righteousness welcomes us into his eternal presence.

He doesn't need to sacrifice a life to make things happen, he just sends messengers to warn us and to do good. SIMPLE AS THAT! After that its our choice which way we wanna go.

If I believed that we really could be good enough for God, then I would agree with the rest of what you said. The problem is that I don't think that can ever actually happen.

I think its pretty unfair to inherit the sins of someone else and then kill one person just to redeem them, dont you?

No and yes. No, I don't think there is anything either fair or unfair about the reality that I inherit things that I wouldn't want in my life. This just is the reality of life. I inherit my families disposition to heart disease (unfair), but not cancer (fair). I inherit baldness, good eyesight, a whole host of phsysical characteristics. I also "inherit" being born in a land of opportunity and great wealth while others were born with limited options, perhaps even not a fair chance to even make it to adulthood. Do we talk about these things been fair or unfair? They are simply givens because of choices that others made before us, and those choices have impact on our lives today. It may not be fair that my grandparents ruined the environment where I live or generations of my ancestors lived so as to selectively choose for being to live on scare calories so that when I have many available to me I get fat. But I still have to deal with these realities. And it may not be fair that Adam committed a sin that brought about a spiritual death to the me so that I am not born in a living relationship with God but that I am born seeking my own will first (just ask any crying baby and they will tell you it is all about them) and God isn't even an afterthought at the time. But that is a part of my reality as well.

And no I don't think it is fair that one person, Jesus, should pay the price for my sins. But I am sure glad that he did.

 

[coddles76]

You might guess that I don't find this to be true. And for that reason, I do not imagine that we can ever truly be perfect as Allah would have us be perfect. Therefore we do need a savior, someone/something from coming from outside of ourselves to save us. This savior can't be another person who is just as unrighteous as I am. It needs to be one who is possesses the righrteousness of God. No mere human being since the time of Adam and Eve had met that qualification. So, if God doesn't save us, we cannot be saved.

Just to be clear, being born pure is not being perfect. My point is that we are born PURE not PERFECT. No one is born perfect but we are all born pure of sin and only our future actions changes that state.
As for a saviour, we have a saviour in Allah SWT which is outside ourselves and greater the us and all we have to do is follow his commandments and to worship him alone who created us and all that is around us. Thats our saviour, nothing more or nothing less. He doesn't need to come down in the flesh then sacfrifice himself for the saviour of humankind. He merely sends his message and its up to us to follow or not, Hence the freewill. Islam is so simple and its the simplicity that is making it the fastest growing way of life in the world.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just to be clear, being born pure is not being perfect. My point is that we are born PURE not PERFECT. No one is born perfect but we are all born pure of sin and only our future actions changes that state.

For my understanding if one is not perfect (as in God's perfect righteousness), then one is impure. There is no such condition whereby one is imperfect but still pure. If one was pure (in righteousness), then one would be perfect with regard to holiness as well.

This is in accordance with our scriptures: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" (Jeremiah 17:9). Since it is beyond cure, there is nothing that you or I can do by any amount of deeds that can rectify the basic problem, which is a heart problem. It is a congenital heart defect that all since Adam have been born with.

As for a saviour, we have a saviour in Allah SWT which is outside ourselves and greater the us and all we have to do is follow his commandments and to worship him alone who created us and all that is around us. Thats our saviour, nothing more or nothing less. He doesn't need to come down in the flesh then sacfrifice himself for the saviour of humankind. He merely sends his message and its up to us to follow or not, Hence the freewill. Islam is so simple and its the simplicity that is making it the fastest growing way of life in the world.

I agree that Allah could be your Savior. Certainly, he is outside of ourselves and is the creator of all. Thus, he is not just greater than us, but than all, including our biggest problems or deficiencies. And while you assert that he doesn't need to come down in the flesh, I assert that nevertheless this is exactly what he did do. You can address it with him in the final judgment that he didn't need to do that, I will let him speak for himself as to why he did. But I must testify that whether we understand the reason for it or not is actually irrelevant to the fact that he did do it. At least according to that scripture which I find to be authoritative on the subject.

 

[Pygoscelis]

That's the sort of thinking I employed with my brother when we were both younger. Whenever there was a conflict my parents were of the opinion that I, being older, should know how to avoid it and therefore it was my responsiblity. My brother, being no dummy, used this to his advantage for sometime and would fake that I was doing something to him in order that I would get in trouble and he could get his way. But I had the last laugh, realizing that I was going to get in trouble no matter what, I just decided that I could and should routinely beat up my brother with impunity, because, after all, if I was going to get in trouble for it, I might as well have actually committed the crime I was going to be punished for.

Exactly. One tin soldier rides away and all that jazz. In encourages exactly the behaviour you and your brother displayed.

Only it goes one step further than that. It can actually be seen to ENCOURAGE it, not just let you get away with it. You see, the more you sin, the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. The more you sin, the more glory you bring to the lord. This is the twisted logic that comes from the idea of sacrifice for FUTURE sin. Its kind of quirky this get out of jail free card from Jesus thing.

 

[coddles76]

For my understanding if one is not perfect (as in God's perfect righteousness), then one is impure. There is no such condition whereby one is imperfect but still pure. If one was pure (in righteousness), then one would be perfect with regard to holiness as well.

This is in accordance with our scriptures: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" (Jeremiah 17:9). Since it is beyond cure, there is nothing that you or I can do by any amount of deeds that can rectify the basic problem, which is a heart problem. It is a congenital heart defect that all since Adam have been born with.

For everybodies understanding and which everybody SHOULD logically understand, it is not our Heart that gets judged on the day of judgement, It is our souls. I agree that some of us are born with faulty hearts and I really feel for these people and there trials but everybodies SOULS are born pure at birth. Its our job here amongst all these trials and tribulations to keep that SOUL as clean as possible, its OUR job, not the job of someone else. And once again the death of someone doesn't take away that responsability to keep that SOUL pure.

I agree that Allah could be your Savior. Certainly, he is outside of ourselves and is the creator of all. Thus, he is not just greater than us, but than all, including our biggest problems or deficiencies. And while you assert that he doesn't need to come down in the flesh, I assert that nevertheless this is exactly what he did do. You can address it with him in the final judgment that he didn't need to do that, I will let him speak for himself as to why he did. But I must testify that whether we understand the reason for it or not is actually irrelevant to the fact that he did do it. At least according to that scripture which I find to be authoritative on the subject.

What I will be addressing on the day of judgement will be to recieve his mercy, I certainly will not degrade him and ask whether he came down and roamed the earth with us in the flesh, that is ONE thing I surely WILL NOT be doing (God Forbid).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Only it goes one step further than that. It can actually be seen to ENCOURAGE it, not just let you get away with it. You see, the more you sin, the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. The more you sin, the more glory you bring to the lord. This is the twisted logic that comes from the idea of sacrifice for FUTURE sin. Its kind of quirky this Jesus thing.

As you yourself said, the idea that the more you sin the more glory you bring to the Lord is actually twisted logic. And it is not a part of Christian theology.


Coodles, it seems to me we understand each other's points on this and simply disagree not about theological interpretation so much as on what actually did or did not occur. So, I'll just pray that Allah will help you to live a righteous life in full submission to him and ask that you pray the same for me. Our understanding of how that might be accomplished may differ, but we ought to be able to offer the same prayer, and then let God bring to pass what he will bring to pass.

 

[coddles76]

So, I'll just pray that Allah will help you to live a righteous life in full submission to him and ask that you pray the same for me. Our understanding of how that might be accomplished may differ, but we ought to be able to offer the same prayer, and then let God bring to pass what he will bring to pass.

Thankyou for your prayer and I not only pray for you but I pray for all humankind to be lead to righteousness and salvation because we all surely need it amongst the corruption we accounter in our daily lives.