Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Amigo]

well, what exactly do you think Christianity is? There is no criterion that exist in Christianity whereby orthodoxy and heresy can be clearly defined. That mechanism is simply non existent in christiandome.

Just because you haven't found one, it does not mean it does not exist.

God needed to allow for His enemies to capture His chosen one, Jesus alaihi salam, so as to convince man that Mercy can reach the greatest if wounds. So you seriously believe that that is reality and not the epitome of imagination?

God does not need anything.
The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life.
He comes to men who want to live,
A wound is not a product of imagination. A healing and restoration is not a production of imagination either.
In fact one who has been healed is more sure in is faith.

 

[MustafaMc]

irjaa is a creedal doctrine that was innovated into some groups among the Muslims who altered the view of faith and disbelief from the traditional orthodox doctrine.

Jazak Allahu khair, akhi. I learned something today. What your post brought to my mind was the Bible verses James 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

 

[MustafaMc]

Just because you haven't found one, it does not mean it does not exist.

OK, then define what orthodox Christian doctrine is regarding forgiveness vs atonement for sin.

The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life.
He comes to men who want to live,
A wound is not a product of imagination. A healing and restoration is not a production of imagination either.
In fact one who has been healed is more sure in is faith.

Give me Biblical verses that back up what you say. I have never read where, "The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life." This sounds more humanistic and Masonic than Christian to me.

 

[MustafaMc]

One might compare the concept of God in Islam versus the concept of God in Christianity and decide for himself which concept befits God the best.

Here is a hadith about God's great might, power, wisdom and His forgiveness....

O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Ukhti Flame, this is exactly what I have been talking about.

Which God is greater?

I prefer to not use this kind of language because there is only One God; however, there are differing concepts and understandings of the Divine Being and there are those who ascribe various partners with Him and those who worship other than Allah. The Islamic concept of the Divine Being as illustrated by the hadith you quoted is clearly superior to the one where He must become human and die a horrible death as the only means for the redemption of His created beings.

 

[Flame of Hope]

I prefer to not use this kind of language because there is only One God

There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! Do as you please. I have died for your sins. I gave my only begotten son. I am my son and the Holy Ghost. I am part of the Trinity. I am 3 in 1. You just have to believe this and all your sins would be forgiven."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you."

Christianity

God says: "O my slaves! Sin entered this world when Adam and Eve disobeyed me. The only way to save all of you was to send my Son and sacrifice him. None of you can be guided because all of you are sinners. All sins are equal in my eyes."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! I couldn't forgive Adam and Eve and I cannot forgive you unless you accept that I died for your sins. I made a huge sacrificial payment for the sin that Adam committed. I sent my only begotten son. I will only forgive you if you believe that Jesus is my son. I and he are the same. Including the Holy Ghost which makes the Trinity."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.

Christianity:

God says: "O my slaves! I make mistakes sometimes. I regret creating Adam and Eve because they disobeyed me. I then had to send my son to pay for your sins. My son and I are the same. So you killed me, crucified me on the cross and made me suffer much. But you will make happy if you accept that I died for your sins. I will forgive you even though you caused me so much suffering."

----------------------

What makes more sense? ^o)

Christians, do feel free to correct me if the statements regarding the Christian God are incorrect. Thanks.

 

[Amigo]

So anyone who finds good should praise Allah and anyone who finds something else should blame none but himself."

Very true. I like this.

 

[MustafaMc]

There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

I thought each of your comparisons were valid and indicative of the differences.

 

[Who Am I?]

There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

That is why I ruled out Hinduism, Buddhism, and Shinto as possible religions once I got over my atheism.

Well that, and the fact that I like steak too much to give up beef (sorry, Hinduism).

 

[MustafaMc]

Comments from elsewhere by Christians.

Christian #1 No one can go to the Father God, except through Jesus Christ the Son.. . . It is by His Blood we are forgiven and saved from sin. ... we have Jesus Christ, who speaks to the Father in our defense. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. ... God did not accept a human sacrifice. . God is Jesus in flesh. . He sacrificed himself . . .

Christian #2 no need for sacrifical payment, God does not accept human sacrifice ... How could God accept a human sacrifice while abhorring sacrifices to other so-called 'gods'? ... Jesus was/is the Son of God but it was a human death. From a divine point of view coming into the world was a sacrifice. And for his death to have sacrificial significance for other human beings it would have to be the sacrificial death of a human, but I stand by what I said before. ... and ... ‎'if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you' ...

These Christians did not agree on the sacrificial atonement for sin in their answers to the question, "Does the justice of God require a sacrificial payment to atone for sin or can He mercifully forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?"

My understanding of the Islamic perspective is that Allah (swt) can forgive all sin if one repents and may even forgive sin (except for shirk) without repentance according to His mercy and Divine will. Who can question the Judgment of Allah (swt) as unjust and unmerciful? Even yet I believe that it is best to repent of sin we are aware of and to offer additional prayers, fasting and charity with the intention of off-setting a bad deed with a good one. I don't believe that anyone can bear or atone or intercede for the sins of others even though I believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will intercede with Allah (swt) by His permission for the eventual ending of punishment for those believers sent to the Hellfire. I walk a fine line between hope in the mercy of Allah (swt) for the forgiveness of my sins and fear of His wrathful punishment. I stand on nothing but the promises of Allah (swt) made in the Quran for forgiveness to those who believe and do good deeds.

 

[Who Am I?]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

 

[Tyrion]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

Basically, it's any form of attributing partners to God. I suppose you can think of it as breaking the first Commandment... There are varying degrees of shirk though, and thats a discussion in itself... I'll let other members elaborate further.

 

[MustafaMc]

OK, another question.

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

According to wikipedia:

In Islam, shirk is the sin of idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God, or more literally the establishment of "partners" placed beside God. It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid (monotheism). Within Islam, shirk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing shirk ... In the context of the Qur'an, the particular sense of "sharing as an equal partner" is usually understood, so that polytheism is "attributing a partner to Allah". ...

My understanding is that shirk is ascribing partners or equals with Allah (swt). We know that many mushrikun repented and converted to Islam, for example with the conquest of Mecca. We also know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) pleaded with his polytheistic uncle, Abu Talib, on his death bed saying, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshiped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness for you before Allah." Even though as a Christian I once worshiped Jesus as God, I have repented and asked Allah (swt) to forgive me.

Christians are shown to commit the sin of shirk as shown by John 3:16 and the Quran 19:88-92 They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

My understanding is that it would not be a good thing to die as a Christian, worshiping Jesus as God. The concepts of Trinity and Tawhid are definitive in distinguishing the 2 religions.

 

[Ramadhan]

What is "shirk"? You mentioned that it is the only unforgivable sin, so what is it?

"shirk" is the first commandment that you find in the ten commandments.

it's not accurate to say shirk is unforgivable.
As long as anyone repent while still alive, ALL sin is forgiveable, including shirk. shirk only becomes unforgivable when one dies in the state of shirk: that is, died while ascribing partners to Allah.

 

[Who Am I?]

Got it. I thought that's what it was, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks everyone. I continue to learn something new every day I am here.

 

[MustafaMc]

it's not accurate to say shirk is unforgivable.
As long as anyone repent while still alive, ALL sin is forgiveable, including shirk. shirk only becomes unforgivable when one dies in the state of shirk: that is, died while ascribing partners to Allah.

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

 

[al yunan]

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

Assalamu Alaikum brother,

Maybe one should define the type of Shirk, as now days due to modern perceptions some forms of Shirk are over looked i.e

The Shirk of fearing anyone else than Allah S.W.T
The Shirk of not seeking Allah S.W.T's help first
The Shirk of placing our trust in anyone else than Allah S.W.T
To name but a few of the hidden Shirk

Masalam

 

[Flame of Hope]

Is it safe to say that other sins may be forgiven even without repentance before death as long as the sin is not shirk?

Difficult question.

Whoever sins and does not repent may not be forgiven..... but be sent to Hell to be purged before allowed entry into Jannah.

The sin that a man considers minor is a great sin in the eyes of Allah.

The sin that a man considers major and repents for becomes a minor sin that Allah can easily forgive.

So a lot depends on the attitude of the person committing sins..... and whether those sins were committed out of ignorance or not. One cannot be held accountable for what he doesn't know.

It's the Day of Judgment................ a day to fear. Not a single one of us knows for sure what will happen to us...... no matter how pious and righteous we may be, no matter how much we may be of those who do not indulge in shirk.

The Prophet (saws) himself declared that he had no idea what would become of him! So what are we in comparison? :scared:

 

[Amigo]

According to wikipedia:

In Islam, shirk is the sin of idolatry or polytheism, i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God, or more literally the establishment of "partners" placed beside God. It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid (monotheism). Within Islam, shirk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing shirk ... In the context of the Qur'an, the particular sense of "sharing as an equal partner" is usually understood, so that polytheism is "attributing a partner to Allah". ...

My understanding is that shirk is ascribing partners or equals with Allah (swt). We know that many mushrikun repented and converted to Islam, for example with the conquest of Mecca. We also know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) pleaded with his polytheistic uncle, Abu Talib, on his death bed saying, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshiped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness for you before Allah." Even though as a Christian I once worshiped Jesus as God, I have repented and asked Allah (swt) to forgive me.

Christians are shown to commit the sin of shirk as shown by John 3:16 and the Quran 19:88-92 They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

My understanding is that it would not be a good thing to die as a Christian, worshiping Jesus as God. The concepts of Trinity and Tawhid are definitive in distinguishing the 2 religions.

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

 

[Amigo]

There is only One God. Wish people would understand that......

But here is a comparison again based upon the hadith I had posted earlier:

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! Do as you please. I have died for your sins. I gave my only begotten son. I am my son and the Holy Ghost. I am part of the Trinity. I am 3 in 1. You just have to believe this and all your sins would be forgiven."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you."

Christianity

God says: "O my slaves! Sin entered this world when Adam and Eve disobeyed me. The only way to save all of you was to send my Son and sacrifice him. None of you can be guided because all of you are sinners. All sins are equal in my eyes."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.

Christianity

God says: "O My slaves! I couldn't forgive Adam and Eve and I cannot forgive you unless you accept that I died for your sins. I made a huge sacrificial payment for the sin that Adam committed. I sent my only begotten son. I will only forgive you if you believe that Jesus is my son. I and he are the same. Including the Holy Ghost which makes the Trinity."

Islam

God says: "O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.

Christianity:

God says: "O my slaves! I make mistakes sometimes. I regret creating Adam and Eve because they disobeyed me. I then had to send my son to pay for your sins. My son and I are the same. So you killed me, crucified me on the cross and made me suffer much. But you will make happy if you accept that I died for your sins. I will forgive you even though you caused me so much suffering."

----------------------

What makes more sense? ^o)

Christians, do feel free to correct me if the statements regarding the Christian God are incorrect. Thanks.

Hello sister from Cloud Nine,

I thought Christians see themselves as childreen of God, not slaves of God.
Well, I know myself, can't speak for others really.
I always find it more honest to quote or paraphrase from official and authoritative sources, do you mind sharing what you mean by 'Christianity' and who are you quoting or paraphrasing. If you don't have a real source, then don't you think you are misleading people? saying things yourself and pretending to get it from someone else?

Of course that was only one basic point, can't even begin about the others...

 

[Amigo]

OK, then define what orthodox Christian doctrine is regarding forgiveness vs atonement for sin.Give me Biblical verses that back up what you say. I have never read where, "The only interest of God is the joy of men who love life." This sounds more humanistic and Masonic than Christian to me.

Christianity exists before the Bible. If what I am saying is true, it does not need the biblical verses to back it up.