Forgiveness vs Atonement

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I don't know about the sermon but I'll answer the commandments part. Jesus (pbuh) followed the message of Moses (pbuh) and he never abrogated Mosaic laws and in fact, on record, he said that he didn't come to abolish the mosaic laws. And in many occasion, he kept commanding his followers NOT to break any of the commandments given to Moses (pbuh). So the commandments (which actually amount to a lot more than ten) are paramount.

I have a friend who has a Jewish studies degree from a British University and in a faith and science forum talks he said there are 613 commands in the Torah though many are now impossible or unnecessary to keep. For example, the temple in Jerusalem no longer exits so any law about it cannot be kept, another example he gave was that you were supposed to show yourself to the priest if you had a skin disease, again no one would think that necessary to keep now. Surely, there must be things in Islam, laws that are now obsolete?

I am rather surprised at Pygoscelis' remarks as I think in the Sermon on the Mount have entered the English language and are typically use all the time in everyday speech. However, one could and perhaps should is go beyond the commands and that is the essence I am told of the teachings of Jesus (same forum as above). So we have a saying such as if someone asks for your shirt give him your coat also. in other words this seems to mean (to me) the law is a starting point not an end point.
 
So if someone does not 'get' you then they are dishonest? I can't see how a lack of understanding can be shown to be equivalent with dishonesty

You guys have an amazing ability to jump out of the line of conversation to pretend something else is going on. This is also dishonesty.
You know well, the 'get me' refers to 'my belief' which you are pretending to know therefore pretending to 'get' me.

I try not to pretend to know what people actually believe. For this I ask questions to make sure. My conversation with Ramadhan is an example.
You can believe whatever you want about me. What you believe about me does not affect my real faith in the least. It only feed your assumptions more and more and you will keep addressing fiction instead of reality.

Dictionaries are about 'truth', faith/belief is also about truth, but how many of you learn their faith from dictionaries. If faith came from dictionaries, people would be believing the same thing. Therefore realize that the truth we are talking about is not the truth from the dictionaries alone!!!! Or perhaps faith for you guys is not a matter of truth?
 
Or perhaps faith for you guys is not a matter of truth?

The difference between our faith and yours is that ours is based on reason and evidence, while yours seems to be blind faith which is based on nothing.

As far as I can tell, you haven't really said anything in this thread... Or perhaps I'm just having trouble understanding you... Either way, I want to ask you a very basic question, so that we can better understand what exactly you're trying to say and where you're coming from.. (and also because I'm curious..) It's a basic question, and I hope you can provide us with a clear response: What is it that you believe, and why do you believe it? In other words, I want to know the answer to the question MustafaMc asked you on the previous page... (Which you responded to, but didn't really answer)
 
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The difference between our faith and yours is that ours is based on reason and evidence, while yours seems to be blind faith which is based on nothing.

As far as I can tell, you haven't really said anything in this thread... Or perhaps I'm just having trouble understanding you... Either way, I want to ask you a very basic question, so that we can better understand what exactly you're trying to say and where you're coming from.. (and also because I'm curious..) It's a basic question, and I hope you can provide us with a clear response: What is it that you believe, and why do you believe it? In other words, I want to know the answer to the question MustafaMc asked you on the previous page... (Which you responded to, but didn't really answer)

I believe
What: in True Life Giving Love.
Why: because it is holy and all good.
 
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Hi Pygoscelis, pls can I ask u a question?
R u atheist
1. because you believe that there is no God, or,
2. because you want to be so but you know that there is God, or,
3. because you know that there is God but so far you do not like Him, or,
4. because you are searching for your God for now, or,
5. any other reason ?

BRMM

1.

2 or 3 or 4 would make me not an atheist.

Actually, not so much 1 as 1 (a): I have no belief that there is a God. I see no more reason to believe that God exists than that any number of other imaginary things exist like big foot or the loch ness monster. These entities MAY exist. I don't discount them completely. But I see no reason to believe they do exist.

Now that said, I am still free to evaluate claims about Gods that are made, just as I am free to evaluate the character or morality of any other fictional matter, like Robin Hood or the stories of Hercules. And when people believe and endorse these religions I do feel that it says a lot about them. If somebody worshiped a God that demands something imoral of them for example (such as mutilating a child's genetalia or killing a child or doing genocide on a neighbouring tribe etc), instead of rebelling against such a God, that would say something about them.

Hope that answers your question adequately :)
 
I am rather surprised at Pygoscelis' remarks as I think in the Sermon on the Mount have entered the English language and are typically use all the time in everyday speech. However, one could and perhaps should is go beyond the commands and that is the essence I am told of the teachings of Jesus (same forum as above). So we have a saying such as if someone asks for your shirt give him your coat also. in other words this seems to mean (to me) the law is a starting point not an end point.

We have Christians fighting to have the 10 commandments put in courthouse lobbies (that the same people usually can't list the 10 commandments is another matter - and rather hillarious if you ask me). But I don't think your typical such Christian could tell you much, if anything, about what was said by Jesus in the sermon on the mount or that pushes for it to be written somewhere official etc in our government. Maybe because it isn't a convenient 10 item list. I guess that's probably it. I have actually met some Christians who have not even heard of the sermon on the mount, hard to believe I know, but I have.
 
I have a friend who has a Jewish studies degree from a British University and in a faith and science forum talks he said there are 613 commands in the Torah though many are now impossible or unnecessary to keep. For example, the temple in Jerusalem no longer exits so any law about it cannot be kept, another example he gave was that you were supposed to show yourself to the priest if you had a skin disease, again no one would think that necessary to keep now. Surely, there must be things in Islam, laws that are now obsolete?

If it is in the Qur'an, it is never obsolete, because the Qur'an is for all mankind till the end of time.
 
We have Christians fighting to have the 10 commandments put in courthouse lobbies (that the same people usually can't list the 10 commandments is another matter - and rather hillarious if you ask me). But I don't think your typical such Christian could tell you much, if anything, about what was said by Jesus in the sermon on the mount or that pushes for it to be written somewhere official etc in our government. Maybe because it isn't a convenient 10 item list. I guess that's probably it. I have actually met some Christians who have not even heard of the sermon on the mount, hard to believe I know, but I have.

From my Christian past, the Sermon on the Mount is also known as the Beatitudes. While it is not an official code like the 10 Commandments, it's considered a set of "unofficial" rules for Christians to live by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes
 
From my Christian past, the Sermon on the Mount is also known as the Beatitudes. While it is not an official code like the 10 Commandments, it's considered a set of "unofficial" rules for Christians to live by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.
 
But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.

I don't know the answer to that one. I only know what I was told when I went to Christian schools.
 
But given that it is the words of Christ himself, shouldn't it carry even more weight than the 10 commandments, an old jewish carryover to the Christian religion? The focus just seems backwards to me.

I tell:
- a jew by a life according to Deuteronomical law
- a muslim by a life according to Sharia law
- a christian by a life according to the Sermon of the Mount

The beatitudes are what distinguish a christian from other faiths in day to day life relationships. Reading it alone give you a clear distinction between christian lifestyle and other religious traditions. In the sermon of the mount, Jesus restores the standard lost by concessions in deuteromical laws and then reveals the true fruits of obedience to the 10 commendments and their purpose: To open man to the fullness of life.

The Sermon on the Mount is the standard of Christian (well, Catholic) interpretation of the 10 Commandments. They are the reason things like vengeance, divorce, contraception, polygamy, death penalty, torture, etc are considered sins in the Catechism and are not practiced by serious and faithful Christians.
 
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I believe What: in True Life Giving Love. Why: because it is holy and all good.

How did you believe that true life giving love?
and how did you find that true life is holy and all good?
 
Unofficial? really? how so?

Well when I was in school, we were taught the 10 Commandments first and later the Beattitudes. That's why I say the Beattitudes are secondary to the 10 Commandments.

Your experience may differ...
 
The Sermon on the Mount is the standard of Christian (well, Catholic) interpretation of the 10 Commandments. They are the reason things like vengeance, divorce, contraception, polygamy, death penalty, torture, etc are considered sins in the Catechism and are not practiced by serious and faithful Christians.

Which actual verse from the sermon on the Mount did the R.C church interpret to mean "no matter how many children's lives one destroys it's okay for to save pedophile priests from man's law"
 
Listening and applying teachings of Fathers (holy men) and imitating holy lives.

who are these fathers?
What makes them holy?
and how do you know they are holy?

Following the path of sincerity and honesty

What is the path of sincerity and honesty?
Sorry for me being stupid, I hope you don't mind me asking questions.
 
Listening and applying teachings of Fathers (holy men) and imitating holy lives.
Do these same Fathers also grant forgiveness from sin as in "Father forgive me for I have sinned, it has been 2 weeks since my last Confession."? How does the penance specified by the priest like "Say three Hail Marys and sin no more" have to do with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?
 

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