Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Amigo]

Also, am I correct in my understanding that cghristians liken God to the union of father, mother, and the child? So in this case for christians, the father = father, holy spirit = mother, jesus = child? Does this mean that christians believe Jesus was born from the union of the father and holy spirit?

The difference between the Holy Spirit and mothers is like the difference between God and Creation.
God does not enter into relationships, God exists and has always existed in relationship. God was never single, never married.
Man enters into relationships. He become a son/daughter, a father, or a mother. All this in the mother.
Mothers indicates our identities as creatures, time-bound, becoming what we were not before.
The Holy Spirit indicates the identity of God: Holy and love.

No, the Holy Spirit is not the mother of Jesus, the mother of Jesus is Mary.

 

[Amigo]

I understand that christians believe that God consists of the father, holy spirit and jesus. So is the job of adopting humans only done by holy spirit? Can the father also adopt humans as sons/daughters? how about jesus? can jesus also adopt humans as sons/daughters?

There is no divisions in God, there is only differences.
All three divine persons are involved in the adoption but each in hiw own particular way.
The Father adopts by the Holy Spirit in the Son.

 

[Amigo]

Originally Posted by Ramadhan So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

All those who are in the truth are one for there is one Truth. Those who are in truth and in love are in the one Church, this Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

 

[Tyrion]

This is very sincere question, and I am not mocking you in any way.

Listen, I'm not accusing you of anything, but you should know that even though you may not be trying to mock him, it might come off that way. Try changing the tone of your posts or something...

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.
In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.
Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.
And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.

Amigo, you say a lot but I'm still not sure where you get all this... You're obviously not a typical Christian, so you'll need to explain where all your ideas come from. Right now, it just sounds like you've made them up. You can "feel" all you want, but you have no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. If you do, show it to us so we can discuss them instead.

 

[Ramadhan]

My love would not prevent you from having a Herod attitude. People choose their own fate even before God. Blessings and curse are placed before us. We choose.

But I certainly don't have a Herod attitude.
I am glad that you don't think I am a Herod-like

 

[Ramadhan]

Creating is not the samething as begetting.

Can you please explain more? What is the difference between "beget" and "create"? Excuse my limited english.
So God begets certain creations and does not beget other creation, I think I get you. So what are other sources of begetting apart from God?

 

[Ramadhan]

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.

I have a hard time picturing this. You are saying very abstract thing. I am sure I am not the only who has difficulty in understanding your ideas.
So how do you communicate with these dead but alive people?
This is a very sincere question. You have been saying about how you are in communication with your dead ancestors, so can you please share us the secret?

In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.

So how do the children keep unity with their dead fathers or mothers? how do the children communicate with their dead parents?
and the children also have their own children, so does this mean that the union is not only of three, but of four, five and so on?
Am I correct in my understanding?

Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.

What do you mean by "die in god"? and "alive in god"? and what do you mean by "die in god so alive in god" ? so people are both dead and live at the same time? So are you living inside God now?
Excuse my lack of knowledge on christianity lingo.

And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.

Does this mean those who are not alive and dead in God will not be resurrected?

 

[Ramadhan]

The difference between the Holy Spirit and mothers is like the difference between God and Creation.

ah ok. but am I correct to summarise your previous statements about how a father, a mother and a child reflect christian idea of a three in one god?

God does not enter into relationships, God exists and has always existed in relationship

I don't think I understand this statement. What relationships that God has always existed in?

God was never single, never married.

So christians believe that God is plural. Thanks for clarifying.

You earlier said this:

From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. the three are always made together as one.

However, as we all know, you are not the same as your father nor your mother, so I don't understand how you are one with your mother and father. You also have your own children. Can you please explain how you are only one with your mother and father? How about your grandparents? does this mean they are one with you also?

He become a son/daughter, a father, or a mother.

Man also becomes uncle, grandchild, nephew, niece. Does this mean there also more persons in Godhood than just three?

All this in the mother. Mothers indicates our identities as creatures, time-bound, becoming what we were not before.

So christians believe that only mothers indicate our identities as creatures? Thanks for this more enlightening info on christian creed. fascinating, I must say.

The Holy Spirit indicates the identity of God: Holy and love.

So holy spirit's job description is to indicate the identity of God? Does this mean that without holy spirit, God has no identity?
More fascinating aspect of christianity, I must say.

No, the Holy Spirit is not the mother of Jesus, the mother of Jesus is Mary.

So the holy spirit goes into union with mary and beget Jesus?

 

[Ramadhan]

There is no divisions in God, there is only differences.

But the three (father, holy spirit and jesus) are three different persons, am I correct? They also have their own job descriptions and personalities, right?

All three divine persons are involved in the adoption but each in hiw own particular way.

Can you please tell me how christians believe in the differences of adoptions between father, holy spirit and jesus?
Does a christian have a choice who they want to be adopted?
Is there some sort of application process? I apologize for asking too much, but your explanations only generate so much questions, I hope you don't mind.

The Father adopts by the Holy Spirit in the Son.

I really don't understand this sentence. Can you please explain more?
Does this mean that the father along with holy spirit adopt jesus?

 

[Ramadhan]

All those who are in the truth are one for there is one Truth. Those who are in truth and in love are in the one Church, this Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

Does this mean the only one church is catholic church?

 

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, I am afraid that you missed these questions.
I apologize if these questions are no-go questions, but please let me know. And please tell me what other questions you find not worth responding. Thanks.

I see, so you are saying that bible is full of errors, but the writings of priests and popes are perfect. Is this the standard christians belief? But those popes and priests write in language that I don't understand? How do common folks and uneducated people understand christianity if they don't speak latin or english? Is it true that only a select few are allowed to truly understand christianity?

So you are saying that popes Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III were all in communion with God, and were from God? Thank you again for your explanation, very enlightening for us to understand christianity more.

 

[Ramadhan]

Listen, I'm not accusing you of anything, but you should know that even though you may not be trying to mock him, it might come off that way. Try changing the tone of your posts or something...

Amigo has not accused me of mocking him, and I don't think there's anything so far in my discussions with him that is considered as mocking amigo.
I apologize if it hurts your sensibilities.

Amigo, you say a lot but I'm still not sure where you get all this... You're obviously not a typical Christian, so you'll need to explain where all your ideas come from. Right now, it just sounds like you've made them up. You can "feel" all you want, but you have no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. If you do, show it to us so we can discuss them instead.

Ah, you must have not followed Amigo's posts, for he already stated that he does not believe in the scriptures because it is only written texts. That's why I keep asking him questions, but I never asked him to back up what he has been saying with his own scripture.
Apparently, christians are allowed to not believe in their own scripture.

 

[Tyrion]

Ah, you must have not followed Amigo's posts, for he already stated that he does not believe in the scriptures because it is only written texts. That's why I keep asking him questions, but I never asked him to back up what he has been saying with his own scripture.

Yeah, I caught that bit... That's why I'm asking him to tell us exactly where he's getting all this stuff from... (I'm guessing it's all from his head.. )

Apparently, christians are allowed to not believe in their own scripture.

Tbh, I think Amigo here is in a class of his own...

Amigo has not accused me of mocking him, and I don't think there's anything so far in my discussions with him that is considered as mocking amigo.
I apologize if it hurts your sensibilities.

Again, it was just some advice. You can take it or leave it, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Amigo]

When you guys refers to what I said, go back to what I said and read carefully.

 

[Tyrion]

When you guys refers to what I said, go back to what I said and read carefully.

Most of what you said were just empty words... Half of it didn't make sense... And plus, if you have no evidence for what you say how can we be expected to take any of it? At least most Christians will use the Bible as their source of information... Most Muslims will use their scholars, Quran, and Hadith... If these sources are used, then we can have a discussion. You however don't seem to have any basis for anything... You're just throwing out your own personal ideas. (seems like that anyway)

 

[Amigo]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.
The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth. It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.
Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture. Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question, I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

 

[Ramadhan]

Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church.

I see. So the bible is for christians only, am I right?
and us non-christians are not allowed to hear the words from the bible?
I'm just curious as to why christianity are so exclusive.

 

[Tyrion]

Lol, don't play the victim buddy. But I think your last post summed things up nicely... You don't use any ounce of reason to reach your conclusions, and from what I've gathered, you rely on nothing but blind faith. No amount of discussion can change that, and so I won't be asking you any more questions.

 

[MustafaMc]

I see. So the bible is for christians only, am I right?
and us non-christians are not allowed to hear the words from the bible?
I'm just curious as to why christianity are so exclusive.

Brother Ramadhan, from what I can tell, the Bible is mostly irrelevant to Amigo and what is important to him is the Catholic Church, including their sacraments as Amigo so indicated, "For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church." I have heard that 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church' such that even Protestant Christians are seen as heretical losers on Judgment Day. For a Protestant their view is more along the lines of 'there is no salvation outside the shed blood of Jesus'. The Bible is much more respected by Protestants who see it as 'the Word of God' whereas for Catholics it seems they readily admit the human nature of the Bible as Amigo said, "The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE." For the longest time most Catholics did not even own a Bible and relied upon their priest to tell them 'what the Truth is'. From what I know until recently the Bible used by priests was written in Latin which was not understood by the common people. One of the first translations of the Bible into English, a language used by the common people, was the King James version in the early 1600's. Catholics were forbidden from owning or reading this translation. It seems that it would be completely unreasonable to Amigo that someone would read a book, see the Truth in it, and then change his religion as I did over 29 years ago when I read the Quran.

 

[brmm]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.
The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth. It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.
Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture. Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question, I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

You are telling us that in your faith man' word comes before God's word !