Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Hamza Asadullah]

For the sake of those who did not follow the discussion:
Christians scriptures were written by Christians for Christians in the context of the Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the BIBLE. In all reasonableness, I Christian should be the one guiding a non-Christian in reading the Bible not vice versa. In all humility and rationality, non-Christians should realise this simple fact, and check with Christians how to read the Bible.
For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.

If only you as a Christian "supposedly" understands the Bible then why have you clearly shown otherwise? Why have you been unable to show us ANY proof or evidence of your beliefs in the scriptures?

Why it is that you seem out of your depth when it comes to debate and giving proof of what you claim but rant emotional fallacies when it is clear you cannot answer the questions?

You claim that the Bible was created for the church. I thought it was meant for mankind? Again you have contradicted your very own beliefs and have shown you know not what you are talking about.

Which church denomination was the Bible created for then? The catholic church? The protestant church? Oh what about the evangelical church? Which of the countless denominations was the Bible created for? Please enlighten us....

The Church or Christianity have existed well before any new NT scripture was written. This is fact any person in his right mind knows and undestands. This is not my opinion or something I am making up. I did not make history, I am only being most reasonable and honest about history and reality.

You did not make church history but you clearly know nothing about it and the war and bloodshed that led to the creation of many of the denominations we see today as well as eradication of others and the infiltration of many false Greek mythological and polytheistic beliefs into the teachings of God and Christ.

So the only way you will truly know of the proper history of the church is to actually learn about it because it is clear you know nothing about it. Only then can you be honest about the reality of the history of the church and how so many false polytheistic beliefs permeated into church beliefs and teachings which went against the very teachings of God and Christ and made a religion which was monothiestic into a religion which is polytheistic.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple. Christianity is a religion of Truth.

You are correct the Christianity of today is NOT found on the original scriptures at all and that is why so many after Jesus have consistantly made additions, deletions, editions and abrogations the words and teachings of God and Christ and this is exactly what happend after Jesus when the likes of Paul, Constantine, Athanius, Tertillian and many others twisted and changed the words, teachings and truth of God and the monotheistic teachings of Christ into polytheistic teachings which is the very thing that Jesus came down to rid his people of.

Clearly it is the truth of the scriptures which show the truth of a religion and without a doubt the fact that Christianity has moved SO far away from its original scriptures clearly shows why it is a religon that has deviated from the truth and into falsehood.

This is also why more people are reverting to Islam than any other faith and belief in this world and most of those reverts are Christians simply because they will find NO contradictions, editions, deletions and tampering by man in the teachings of God and his Prophet in the Islamic scriptures and EVERY fundamental belief is FULLY backed up by the Qur'an and the words and teachings of the Prophet.

It acknoweledge that the infinite Word of God can not fit in human syllables. It acknowledge that even man can't fit his communications only in words. For this reason the source of Truth in Christianity is God himself using various temporal means appropriate; writtings included. Jesus spoke in paraboles because regular human language is not enough to transmitt spiritual realities. The Church therefore use various temporal means to transmitt translate eternal truth to humans and help them to grasp the eternal language of God.

Until this very day the church is NOT united in its fundamental beliefs. That is why you will see countless churches all with differing beliefs in their fundamentals. This is because the fundamentals of Christianity are NOT backed up by the scriptures and so this makes those fundamentals up for change.

That is why the church is constantly changing the fundamentals and many of the dogmas that were created by Paul and those after him are still up for change today.

This is clearly NOT an indication of a religion of truth but a religion that is in absolute turmoil and feel that they have to constantly change the original laws of God and the teachings of Jesus just to try and redeem its diminishing image and rapidly falling number of worshippers.

The truth and the word of God is eternal but the church has consistantly changed the words, teachings and laws of God and Jesus beyond recognition and what we have today is nothing but the polytheistic teachings of Paul and those after him which was what Jesus came to eradicate.

Holy Scriptures is highly estimed in the Church and it is used most reasonably. Without adding or substracting anything to the Truth/Word of God. For one who takes care to consider everything in their right measure and capacity, is watching not to add or remove anything from the Eternal Word of God which is the Truth itself. The Truth in everything and of everything.

Again this shows you have no knolwedge of your own scriptures. Even Christian scholars confirm that the Bible is full of additions, deletions etc. So surely if this is the case then the word and teachings of God has also been changed beyond recognition.

There is NO correlation between the words and teachings of Jesus and God and the false polytheistic beliefs and teachings of Paul and those after him. If there was a correlation then WHY is there NO mention in the words of God or Jesus of the incarnation, trinity, theotakas, blood atonement of Christ, Original sin or any other pagan belief of Paul in the words of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus? Please explain this to us? Why NO ONE at the time of Jesus knew ANYTHING about these dogma's but suddenly after Paul these new polytheistic beliefs started to come about which were fully backed by Constantine and established at the nicean council.

Why would God and Jesus confuse their followers for hundreds of years by not mentioned any of these fundamental concepts but suddenly out of nowhere they were brought about by bloody wars bloodshed and torture. and inflitrated into church teachings.

I think you seriously need to look into Church history and you will realise the truth!

Any one who respect the truth, respects limits and right measure, and does not add or remove from what God has decreed for everything.

Then why have Gods word, laws and teachings been ignored and changed and the false and polytheistic teachings of Paul and those after him practised upon today - which go against the teachings of Jesus and God?

If only the truth of God and his original laws and teachings were applied to the church then we would NEVER have the polytheistic beliefs which have infiltrated the Church and that which God and Jesus TOTALLY warned against such as the incarnation, trinity, theotakas, blood atonement of Christ, original sin and many other polytheistic beliefs which have infiltrated the church since the ascension of Jesus.

None of those dogmas are mentioned above are taught by ANY Prophet, God or Jesus so clearly Gods word, laws and commands have been rejected and instead the false teachings of Paul and those after him adopted and practised today.

Scriptures is used by the childreen of the Church to celebrate and remember their history and the goodness of God to all humanity from the beginning. Otherwise, for a Christian, God is with us. We can do without any scipture.

Without scripture how can you know the truth of God? Without scripture how can you know what God requires of you? How can you obey his commands without what his word?

Without scripture how can you know what is going against the truth of God and his teachings and commandments?

In this statement you will revealed the fundamental flaw of Christianity which is that it has moved SO far away from its original scriptures beyond recognition and the result is a religion which was created, deleted, edited, changed by those after Jesus until this very day when fundamentals are constantly being changed and moved away from the original teachings of God and Jesus.

Knowing reading and writting is not a requirement for Heaven. All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

So knowing what God requires of us so that we may follow his commands as best we can is not a requirement for salvation? Then what is the point of scripture? Why did God reveal anything in the first place if it is not required?

If all of your beliefs were fully backed up by your scriptures like they are in Islam then you would never say what you have just said. This exposes a fundamental flaw in your thinking and beliefs.

Also Is baptism not a requirement of Heaven? What about an unborn baby or a baby that was never baptised? They are doomed to Hell forever!

When questions are asked of me then about Christianity, I am free to provide any source I believe to be enough to answer the question,

So if we were to ask you a question about your scriptures would you give us proof and evidence from the Veda's? Or from the buddhist scriptures? Obviously we would require for you to provide us proof and evidence form your own scriptures but this is something you have been consistantly unable to do. You are clearly frustrated with the fact that you have been unable to provide any proof or evidence of your beliefs using your own scriptures and that is why you have failed everytime.

I don't have to agree with anyone about what source to use about presenting my Faith and any honest inquiry should find it most reasonable. Questions meant to as derisions, I will simply not answer them. If there is any penalty for not answering questions here, I will be glad to face it if that's what it takes to honor sincerity, the Holy Name of God. I will not be pushed to feeding viciousness or any other wickedness while I see it.

Throughout your time here you have not answered one direct question properly. When asked for proofs and evidence you make absurd statements which show nothing. It is clear that you do not even understand your own scriptures and from your last post it is apparent that you have no wish to do so.

You have just admitted indirectly that you cannot answer any questions because deep down you know the truth is that NONE of your scriptures back up any of your false beliefs regarding God and Jesus.

You keep talking about disregarding your sciptures then how would you know what to believe and what not to believe? How would you distinguish the truth from falsehood?

When a person has no knolwedge of Gods teachings then this opens the doors to Satan who can easily mislead a person into believing that which is other than the truth.

A lot of what you have stated is very worrying and i would hope that you and others would realise that the word and teachings of God are crucial for the guidance of mankind. That is why we should adhere to the original commandments of God and you will find this in Islam so i urge you to open your heart to Islam and look into it for yourself and there is no doubt you will find the truth in the Islamic scriptures which are still in its original form from revelation until now unlike Christianity which has moved so far from its scriptures that it is byeond recognition today.

That is why you are having to look at other sources in order to try and back up your beliefs because they are NOT found in ANY of the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus.

You have resorted to complete blindness, so much so that you have rejected the truth of God and his teachings. This is something you will have to reconcile in your own conscience.

Until then May God guide you and all others to the truth. Ameen

 

[al yunan]

Assalamu Alaikum to all the brothers and sisters on this forum,

I seek your help in clarifying the following:

Is there any truth in the teachings as to the responses to Christians and Jews mentioned in the Quran by Allah S.W.T are specified and one may not elaborate further ?
The Bible and the Torah may only be used By Muslims who have rule over Christians and Jews and have to arbitrate ?
The example quoted is the case of the Jewish man who came to the Prophet p.p.b.u.h for help when the Jewish community had already sentenced this man.
The Prophet p.p.b.u.h asked him to produce his evidence in the Torah and a Sahabi who knew Hebrew read and even though the man tried to hide the relevant verses he was sentenced as per the Torah.
That there is a restriction placed by the prophet p.p.b.u.h as to who may study books of other faiths ?
That the scholars circa 5Th century Hijri actually brought into law that only certified by state scholars had the right to Interfaith public discourse ?
And finally that the prophet p.p.b.u.h prohibited the ridicule or harassment of other faiths ?

Does anyone remember Ahmed Deedat ?
Do you know of his end ?
What is your opinion of him and his body of work ?

Masalam

 

[May Ayob]

Does anyone remember Ahmed Deedat ? Do you know of his end ? What is your opinion of him and his body of work ?

Salaam i am not a scholar and i dont know how to answer all these questions but , i had a good opinion about Ahmad Deedat and Zakir Naik as well , why did something bad happen to him?

Salaam

 

[Amigo]

You are telling us that in your faith man' word comes before God's word !

No. I am saying that there is a big difference between men's 'words' and God's 'Word'.
And for the sake of honesty and integrity, this difference is respected in the Church(see link for those honestly interested in details)

 

[Amigo]

Also Is baptism not a requirement of Heaven? What about an unborn baby or a baby that was never baptised? They are doomed to Hell forever!

You don't need to to know how to read and write in order to get baptized.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

You don't need to to know how to read and write in order to get baptized.

If a baby died and was never baptised then is it doomed to Hell?

 

[Amigo]

If a baby died and was never baptised then is it doomed to Hell?

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

 

[Ramadhan]

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

Who told you this?

By the way, amigo, I still have a series of questions in the previous page waiting for your answers. Thank you.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

No. A person who dies without being baptized and it is not of any fault of their own, is not doomed to Hell.

Holla Amigo,

Once again you have proved you know nothing about your scriptures. Let us look at If Eph. 2:3, "By nature the children of wrath," means born with a sinful nature and under the wrath of God because of that nature which the advocates of the doctrine of original sin teach then it follows that EVERY child who dies in infancy goes to hell where he must forever suffer the awful punishment and wrath of God.

So this text itself proves THAT BABIES WHO DIE GO TO HELL where they will suffer God's wrath in never-ending punishment.

What a just and kind God you believe in Amigo.

If babies really are born "by nature the children of wrath," then they must go to hell if they die in such a state.

Let us also look at Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me," means that even unborn children in their mother's womb are sinners, then it follows that all the multiplied millions of children who have been aborted, along with all stillbirths, ARE IN HELL where they will suffer its torments throughout all eternity for "their part" in the sin of Adam.

Also about a month ago a former Christian member of this forum made the following statement confirming the belief that a baby who died before baptism may go Hell forever:

"No one likes to think of babies being condemned to hell it just feels wrong, and perhaps their not but that's under God's jurisidiction not ours. Yet, you could argue that babies are man at his most egostical. How? Easy, all they do is want, want, want; they don't listen to reason. If you argue with a baby you'll lose because their way is the only way. Babies from a psycological point of view are pure Id.

So while we don't want to think of babies condemned to hell, if they aren't baptized they may go there. This is why some Christians practice infant baptism. Those that don't usually don't understand the consequences of it. Even though it's in the bible to perform infant baptism."

Adios Amigo

 

[Amigo]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.
Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies.
Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering.
Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people.
No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

 

[Ramadhan]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

Amigo, why are you so afraid with questions?
If you have the truth with you, surely it is easy for you to answer questions regarding your belief, and especially if you want to spread your truth, wouldn't you so want to answer them?

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

Who is putting what to your mouth? I am confused.

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god?
is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies. Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering. Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people. No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

So when Jesus became adult, could he still communicate with babies?
and when Jesus was not suffering, could he still also communicate with the healthy and wealthy?
And when jesus was alive, could he also communicate with the dead? Why did jesus need to die to communicate with the dead? Isnt he god?
And how about the father and holy spirit? Do they also communicate with the dead, babies, and the suffering?

 

[MustafaMc]

What does baptism have to do with forgiveness? What sin did babies commit that they should be forgiven?

 

[Amigo]

What does baptism have to do with forgiveness? What sin did babies commit that they should be forgiven?

If a tree is corrupt, its fruit will be corrupt.
If a person is a theif and went to prison, and had a baby in prison, the baby is in prison even though the baby did not steel.
If a couple wonders in a forbidden area, and fall into a deep pit and start living there. Their babies will be born there even though the babies did not disobey any command of God.

Parents are sinners and their babies are born in sin. Baptism is about setting those babies free from sin.
baptism is a new birth, not in corruption and imperfection, but in the right place: God.

 

[brmm]

Heheh, so you were trying to trap me by your question...like pharisees to Jesus! You have your reward with you.

However for the sake of those who may be mislead by what you are putting in my mouth:

The Word of God is everywhere and communicates with everyone wherever they may be the love of God.
Jesus was a baby, he knows how to communicate with babies.
Jesus suffered, he knows how to communicate with the suffering.
Jesus was a dead man, he knows how to communicate with dead people.
No one is outside the juridiction of Jesus: the Word of God.

Amigo.. I can't see your comments on brother Hamza Asdullah quote ?

By the way, I wish to know from you the most strongest evidences which made you consider Jesus as your god? Is it because of his miracles, or because he had no father or what?

Have a nice day

 

[brmm]

GOOD NEWS ::: GOOD NEWS :::

It seems "Just a Guy " have converted to Islam and said the Shahada

 

[Who Am I?]

GOOD NEWS ::: GOOD NEWS :::

It seems "Just a Guy " have converted to Islam and said the Shahada

Yep, I took shahada Wednesday night.

I was going to wait until I knew more about Islam, but I realized that life is not guaranteed, and if I die, I want to die with peace in my heart knowing that I have made the right choice.

There is still a lot that I don't know about being a Muslim, but I will learn, inshallah.

 

[brmm]

Yep, I took shahada Wednesday night.

I was going to wait until I knew more about Islam, but I realized that life is not guaranteed, and if I die, I want to die with peace in my heart knowing that I have made the right choice.

There is still a lot that I don't know about being a Muslim, but I will learn, inshallah.

Alhamdolillal Brother many times,
I had a feeling in my heart that you will convert sooner or later, but Alhamdolillah it was sooner thats why I called you Pre-Brother.

I think you know that in Islam, when you convert you start a new age like a new born baby, so my advise for you from my own experience is that "Keep your past in the past behind your back, ask Allah Sobhanaho for forgiveness and don't let the people know much about it even the close ones"
Now u r 2 days old only

The people of Mecca and Madina always have the right way in Islam since prophet Mohammed PBUH had his message there, so be sure to follow their way.

If you have a question and you didn't believe any answer, read what the Quran says to you and follow it.

All of us have weaknesses and good time in our faith, so when you are in your good time, keep asking Allah sobhanaho to fix your belief on Islam and strength you in your weakness.

And if you need to enjoy a close connection with Allah sobhanaho, wake up after 3AM, and do prayers in a relax way with Dua (asking Allah for some thing good), inshallah you will test it, it has a very special feeling.

And you know as a Muslim, you should highly respect your parents and give everyone his right Muslim or non-Muslim.

Inshallah your next life will be much beautiful, and welcome with us as a brother, we are proud of you, and your value with what you do not with who you are.

BRMM

 

[Amigo]

Amigo.. I can't see your comments on brother Hamza Asdullah quote ?

?

By the way, I wish to know from you the most strongest evidences which made you consider Jesus as your god? Is it because of his miracles, or because he had no father or what?

Evidences are about truth. They are in the truth.
Strongest evidences are deep within the intimacy of truth.
Do not lie to your brother, your friend, your parent, your boss, your teacher, the government, your childreen, etc....
Love everyone including those you consider your enemies.
Follow and stay in the path of truth and love, then you will see truth and love more and more: You will see Jesus more and more.
If you want sincerely what you ask you will have it.
DO NOT BE AFRAID. He says PEACE BE WITH YOU, and it will be with you if you trust and receive it.
Denounce all falsehood, all deceit, all malice...and do not follow anyone who approves, justifies, and teach that some lies/falsehood are ok.
God is Holy, there is no falsehood in Him or about Him. If you want to approch Him, you must denounce the tinies lie.
If you want the full truth about God, then embrace the full truth and denounce ALL falsehood.

Those are his directions which I followed, and saw Him and believed.
If you follow his directions, it will not be long before you find Jesus yourself. Then consider the evidences yourself.

 

[brmm]

?


I am with Jesus. He is here, and you will see him yourself if you follow his directions:
Evidences are about truth. They are in the truth.
Strongest evidences are deep within the intimacy of truth.
If you want sincerely what you ask you will have it. Just follow the path of truth and enter deeper and deeper.
DO NOT BE AFRAID. He says PEACE BE WITH YOU, and it will be with you if you receive it.
Denounce all falsehood, all deceit, all malice...and do not follow anyone who approves, justifies, and teach that some lies/falsehood are ok.
God is Holy, there is no falsehood in Him or about Him. If you want to approch Him, you must denounce the tinies lie. Do not lie to your brother, your boss, your teacher, your friend, to no one... live in the truth...
Love everyone including those you consider your enemies.
If you remain in the truth, you will see more and more of the truth: more and more of Jesus.

These are the directions given by Jesus Himself. I followed them, and I found Him. I considered what I saw, and I believed.
If you follow them, it will not be long before you find Jesus yourself. Then consider the evidences for yourself.

Hi Amigo,
You have good feelings about your faith, I have good feelings about my faith, non Christian/Muslim people of different faiths also the same, I saw people on TV who made toys and worshiped them and they have also good feelings in their faith, I even heard that there are some people worship Google :skeleton: because they say "Google knows everything ! ".

At the end of the day, we should be able, as individuals, to give some, what we think are, reasonable evidences to support our beliefs.

You are in an Islamic forum by your own will, I think you should have this chance to explain and defend your faith with evidences, verses from the Bible, studies, proofs ..etc since you have many Muslim readers and everyone here learns from the others.

I would appreciate if you can give us more clear answers.

BRMM

 

[Amigo]

Hi Amigo,
You have good feelings about your faith, I have good feelings about my faith, non Christian/Muslim people of different faiths also the same, I saw people on TV who made toys and worshiped them and they have also good feelings in their faith, I even heard that there are some people worship Google :skeleton: because they say "Google knows everything ! ".

At the end of the day, we should be able, as individuals, to give some, what we think are, reasonable evidences to support our beliefs.

You are in an Islamic forum by your own will, I think you should have this chance to explain and defend your faith with evidences, verses from the Bible, studies, proofs ..etc since you have many Muslim readers and everyone hear learn from the others.

I would appreciate if you can give us more clear answers.

BRMM

Sorry, I did some editing/polishing after you had posted without realizing it.
But the message is still the same. I hope it is only clearer. If not:
There is no stronger evidence than real life.
Be real: don't practice lies at all. Then you will prouve your faith in truth.
I can't be clearer than this. Real life is clearer than me. Be true in life, and you will see clearer.
Real life proves real truth and real faith.