Forgiveness

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al'-Adl

"The most obvious reason would be that a legal system that fails to implement punishments cannot function. Punishments are a necessary aspect of maintaining societal order by making criminals accountable for their crimes."

This is my next question: Did GOD not implement a "legal system" in this world? Did He not implement a "legal system" of morals and ethics that every person at some point or another has broken? When you look around world, how much "societal order" is truly in effect? By nature, surely the human race, are breakers of the societal laws that GOD has written on the heart of every living person? Does GOD not need to hold each and every one of us accountable? And when He does, what punishment is He going to implement on us?

 

[POBook]

Hello Akulion, Hana Aku, Michaela,

You all looked like you had a great discussion. Tell me if I am correct on the following summary:

1. Yes punishment is real and existent, though in different forms
2. Strickter forms of punishment seem to have better affect on criminals
3. Constant new laws don't seem to change people much

Also:

- Serious Theft :
Option A: Cut off the hand
Option B: Forgive
Option c: Community service
Option D: Reimburse the person who was stolen from
- Murder :
Option A: Behead the murderer
Option B: Forgiveness
Option C: Blood Money paid as compensation on request of victims family

Once again, let me ask this question: Why punish people who do wrong, no matter what wrong they may do? Part of my profession is in counseling people. I have learned that one of the root causes for many major forms of conflict lies in our unwillingness and inability to forgive people who have committed crimes against us or against our families. We seem to feel better when someone has been beheaded, blood money has been paid, a prison time hs been served, or a simple fine has been paid. Retribution is part of society and human nature. I also want to ask this question: Have we sinned against GOD and dishonored Him in some way or another? Unfortunately, many people feel they have never sinned against GOD. What must this Holy, Righteous Judge of mankind do with us and our breaking of His commands?

Thanks again for your contribution to this discussion;D

 

[akulion]

We do not live in a utopian society - thus is illegal activities and crimes went unpunished - eventually we would find a lot of corruption and safety of life itself would become threatened because anyone could just decide to murder and not be punished at all..

Law is there for a reason - lawlessness is not something God commands

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

I also worked with "Hard Core Youth" for a few years. I truly loved these kids and wanted, more than anything, to see them successful. (Alhamdulillah, we had an 88% success rate in our program )

That being said, the one thing I refused to do was allow them to make excuses. If they did the wrong they had to take responsibility for it. For example, if my son does something wrong that is worthy of punishment, I will punish him, but it doesn't mean I don't love him or won't forgive him. Of course I do, but he needs to learn that there are consequences to his actions.

If you look at our system of theft.....the punishment is anywhere from a slap on the wrist to a couple years in prison. Not much of a deterant. Your chances of not going to prison are pretty good. So, does the person learn? Usually not, they are now free to do it again and again and again. Finally, the time will come when they end up in the prison system. Let's assume, this person is male for the purpose of this discussion. If this man was the provider for his family and goes to prison, his family suffers with no support, children away from their father, spouses apart. Society will ultimately have to support them through social services and society is supporting this man in prison. Will he be reformed when released....statistics say highly unlikely. Within the system they learn to get better at what they do and the crimes become more serious.

Now, look at the Shariah Law. The punishment for theft is clear so there is no question as to what will happen to you should you decide to commit the crime. Let's assume the man was proven guilty and the punishment was carried out. This man is still able to provide for his family, society is not supporting them, society is not supporting him in prison, he will not be kept away from his family and the chances he will re-offend? Slim to none.

So, you can't just look at the punishment and say it is not just or barbaric, it is far deeper than that. There are very good, logical reasons for the Shariah Law, we just have to be willing to investigate further than just the actual punishment itself.

I hope this gives a clear explanation.

Take care, wasalam and peace,
Hana

 

[TrueHeart]

totally true, I like how you put.Shariah Laws always has good, reasonable and logical punishment so that it's best for everyone. Shariah Laws thinks about everyone involved and not just the the criminal

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum sister:

Yes, you're right, it goes a lot further than just the act of punishment. Imagine if you were considering stealing a gold bracelet and someone walked by that made the same attempt and got caught. I'm quite sure you'd think twice before stealing a bracelet with the chances you wouldn't have a wrist to wear it. It's proven that the Shariah Law works, unfortunately, most people only look at the surface.

Before I reverted I had a lot of opinions about the Shariah Law. I felt it was barbaric and cruel, etc. Then a brother took the time to go through each of my "opinions" one by one, and I was so shocked to learn how just and logical these laws are. I learned to have a great respect for the Shariah Law long before I reverted.

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana

 

[akulion]

People dont THINK about the consequences and effect of crime!!

For example one true story from my young days from my grandparents neighbourhood

Someone took away a bag from a lady on gun point as she was trying to catch a taxi and the woman begged the man not to take it because it contained all her money which she had taken from the bank to have her son treated

he didnt listen and took it anyways
The poor woman was left with nothing and would have lost her son and also her house and have been on the street, but the people all gathered and helped her out so everything was ok

As for the theif I'll be DAMNED if he shows up and tells me his sins are forgiven by God because God loves him Thats just BS - crime has really hard hitting tragedies on peoples lives and that is why God will do justice with those who violate his commandments and hurt other people and God will not forgive these violaters until those victims forgive him first!

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

Yeah, akulion, you're right they don't think of the effects of crime.

My house was broken into about 15 years ago and I haven't been the same since then. Prior to that I looked forward to coming home, felt safe... no concerns. Now, 15 years later, when I come home (particularly after dark), I still feel anxious and nervous. It's a feeling that will never leave me.

It's not just the actual crime itself, it's what it does to the victims. These people stole far more than money and material things from me. Those things can be replaced, but my feeling of security cannot.

Oh, and these people were never caught, but according to our laws, even if that had been caught, they wouldn't be charged with break and enter and theft. They would have only been charged with possession of stolen property, a much lesser crime. :hmm:

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana

 

[akulion]

Yea I know what you mean
My house was broken into too and they held us all on gunpoint and then locked us in the kitchen when they were leaving

As a result my mother and father who are old still worry everytime I say I am going out at night time after 9PM and not only that since that day we had to have a security system installed in our house which costs us money every month for security!

Theives definately deserve their hands cut off!
Its not harsh at all - they refuse to move their hands and steal from the hands of others who worked so hard with their hands - so definately their hand should be cut off and then they should think...if i steal again the second hand goes too!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook

This is my next question: Did GOD not implement a "legal system" in this world?

The latest and final legal system God revealed was that given to Prophet Muhammad saws, although it is similar to that of Prophet Moses in many ways.

Did He not implement a "legal system" of morals and ethics that every person at some point or another has broken?

There is on one hand, a legal system which governs society as a whole, and on the other hand there is a spiritual/moral system which governs each individual. The penal system is in place only to govern the former.

When you look around world, how much "societal order" is truly in effect?

How many places have inplemented the comprehensive system of life as prescribed by Islam?

By nature, surely the human race, are breakers of the societal laws that GOD has written on the heart of every living person?

Depends what you are referring to. Do we each make mistakes and commit sins? Yes, but we can repent. But do we each murder, rob and rape? I certainly hope not, because that is NOT in our nature.

Does GOD not need to hold each and every one of us accountable?

Yes He does, but that does not mean that we shouldn't implement a legal system for the protection and preservation of society.

And when He does, what punishment is He going to implement on us?

There are punishments in this life, in the grave, and in the hereafter. May God protect us from these punishments and guide us on the straight path.

If I may comment one what you wrote in a later post:

1. Yes punishment is real and existent, though in different forms
2. Strickter forms of punishment seem to have better affect on criminals

This is not true from an Islamic perspective. One mistake people have is that when they think of Sharî'ah law, they think it is only penal law. No, in reality, Sharî'ah law is a comprehensive system, not just involved in implementing criminal punishments.

Take murder for example. I do not say that the answer to rising murder rates is to simply implement capital punishment and then relax epecting to see the rates go down. This will not happen, and this is not what Sharî'ah law entails. The reality is that Sharî'ah law is a comprehensive system which combats societal issues from all different perspectives. So it not only places a deterrent in place, but it also extinguishes the various factors that lead to murder. For example, in the west we find that with every new movie, video game or tv show that comes out, the level of violence that is tolerated increases and society becomes desensitized to violence. The secular lifestyle that is promoted is "live life to the fullest" and it removes the spiritual aspect of life that entails restraining one's desires, being considerate of others before thinking about one's personal pleasure. Sharî'ah law provides the comprehensive solution once again. It does not allow the spreading of immorality and violence through the media and it focuses the individual on controlling their personal desires, including anger. It removes murder for money and theft by instituting the zakât (charity tax). It implements mandatory period of prayer (Salât) five times a day, when one can focus on their relation with God and reflect on improving themselves. So it combats murder on a variety of levels, not just through a harsh deterrent.

3. Constant new laws don't seem to change people much

The laws we should implement are those that are in accordance with the revelation from the All-Knowing Creator, not those that are in accordance with the whims of society.

Regards

 

[sumay28]

The laws of this country (look where i'm from), doesn't really seem to be scaring anyone strait anyway. I've had a criminal history. The only thing a person has to be scared of is going through the long stress of court fees, jailtime, etc. You go through it, you hope it doesn't happen again, and then you keep breaking the law. If I even thought that stealing something can result in me getting my hand cut off... NO WAY!!! I would have been strait as an arrow!!! Allah knows best...

 

[Tasneem]

Salam to all of you



Why are these people to be punished? Why are they to be punished in this fashion?

Its a warning

Its harram to steal and if someone knows the punishement then im sure they wont do it

But you also have to look at why they stold

Were they poor?

Did someone have something that they wanted and the person knew but did'nt give it to them?

So even with this you have to judge accordingly

SaLaMz

 

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al'-Adl,

There are punishments in this life, in the grave, and in the hereafter. May God protect us from these punishments and guide us on the straight path.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I agree, there are punishments in this life and in the hereafter. Each of us need GOD to guide us on the straight path. How and why should GOD protect us from punishments if He is the one to implement them, particularly in the hereafter?

There is on one hand, a legal system which governs society as a whole, and on the other hand there is a spiritual/moral system which governs each individual. The penal system is in place only to govern the former.

If the penal/legal system governs society as a whole, what is the spiritual/moral system that governs each individual? Just like us humans, whom GOD created, have a penal system, surely GOD also has a penal system.

I realize I may be repeating myself here, but to me this is sooo important. GOD is truly Merciful. GOD is also truly Just. GOD is also truly Holy and Righteous. Some people focus only on GOD and His mercy. Other people focus only on GOD and His justice. We cannot ignore either of these character traits of GOD. How can you combine mercy and justice? There is only one way.

Peace to you

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

POBook, I don't understand where you are confused by this. We ask God to protect us from these punishments by keeping us on the straight path. We have free will so He can guide, but ultimately we decide what path we will take to make it to our destination. If we take the straight path we will be protected from punishment, should we faulter and choose a different course, then we must be responsible for the choices we make and be accountable for them.

One of the beauties of Islam is that it is a complete way of life. It provides everything we need to live in society, from teaching high morals to punishment for wrong doing/criminal activity. ie We are taught how to interact with all people, how we should handle confrontation, treat our neighbours, etc. It not only tells us we should not commit crimes, but provides the required punishment. These punishments are just and are meant to be the same for all people. The Shariah Laws in Islam are meant to govern us both socially and morally. So yes, God has already provided us with everything we need in society, including a penal system.

Man created and implemented new laws and punishments that are outside the teachings of Islam, but to live in a society outside a truly Islamic state (of which there are none, by the way), we must adhere to those laws or we find ourselves in trouble.

I may be wrong, but I think that because Christianity holds this concept that Jesus, pbuh, will take away your sins, many don't have the sense of taking responsibility for the mistakes they make. Whereas in Islam, we, as individuals, are accountable for everything we do. I don't mean that to say that just because we are Muslims we have some degree of superiority. All faiths teach the importance of maintaining a high moral standards, but I think the difference comes in when we look at the expectations on the Day of Judgement. Christians believe that having strong faith will be enough to save them. Muslims don't believe that just because we call ourselves Muslims it will be enough to save us from hellfire. This is something we must strive for and to do that we must adhere to the teachings and practice that is laid out for us as a guide. This guide has been provided to us from God in the form of the Holy Qur'an.

May Allah, swt, guide us all and keep us on the straight path. Ameen

Wasalam and Peace
Hana

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I agree, there are punishments in this life and in the hereafter. Each of us need GOD to guide us on the straight path. How and why should GOD protect us from punishments if He is the one to implement them, particularly in the hereafter?

By 'protect us from these punishments' I meant that we pray God guides us so that we do not recieve them. So when we pray that God protects us from the fire of Hell, we mean that we pray to God to guide us on the truth, to increase our faith, to enable us to perform righteous deeds and avoid evil, all in order that we do not recieve the punishment of hell.

God has given us a system of life that will allow us success in this world and the hereafter. Many of the laws are based on the practical needs of society and vital for society to properly function. This is true of the legal rulings that we have discussed, specifically the penal law. Other laws are part of the struggle we take to bring us closer to God, such as prayers, sacrifice, etc.

If the penal/legal system governs society as a whole, what is the spiritual/moral system that governs each individual? Just like us humans, whom GOD created, have a penal system, surely GOD also has a penal system.

God does not have a 'penal system' because He does not have a society to protect as we do. He does have punishments, but those are absolute punishments for those who performed evil in this life.

When we speak of God's punishments we are discussing a totally different concept. Here we are looking at life as a whole, and the purpose of life. God has placed us human beings on earth for a limited period of time. We are here with a purpose: to serve and worship God with our love and devotion and to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. Those who do good in this life will be rewarded, while those who do evil will be punished.

I realize I may be repeating myself here, but to me this is sooo important. GOD is truly Merciful. GOD is also truly Just. GOD is also truly Holy and Righteous. Some people focus only on GOD and His mercy. Other people focus only on GOD and His justice. We cannot ignore either of these character traits of GOD.

Who says we are ignoring a trait here?

How can you combine mercy and justice? There is only one way.

I realize that you are trying to use this to lead in to the Christian doctrine of atonement or Christ's sacrifice, but it isn't going to work this way. If you want to discuss atonement, let's be open about it and then we'll have a much more productive discussion then beating around the bush.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

He does have punishments, but those are absolute punishments for those who performed evil in this life.

If these people performed evil in this life then performed good, does the good work they do nullify the evil they did:? ?

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Something we don't always remember is that the love and mercy of Allah, swt, is far greater than His wrath.

If someone did wrong, constantly did wrong, then turned in sincere repentence to Allah, swt, and continued to live his life as we are commanded by Allah, swt. I'm very sure that person would be forgiven. But, if you die in a state of doing evil, it's too late for repentence. So, you will live in the hereafter in anyway Allah, swt, wills. Only He knows your heart and only He can judge.

We can't tell you that YES, this man will absolutely be forgiven. We can't know that. We can't see what's truly in his heart, we can't see what his intentions are. Do we BELIEVE that he will be forgiven if he sincerely repents....definitely. In one saying of the Prophet Mohammed(sa) he told us that God ordained it that his mercy shall prevail over his anger.

Wasalam and Peace
Hana

 

[POBook]

Salam Hana_Aku,

I appreciate your feedback. I know this is where Christians and Muslims are very different in their thinking. Do you not think, however, to say that Allah's mercy prevails over his anger is to say that we are safe, even if we sin? Is that not to say that it's OK to do what we want, whether it pleases Allah or not? If his mercy outweighs his anger, then it's OK for bad deeds to outweigh good deeds and everyone is going to heaven.

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Hana_Aku,

I appreciate your feedback. I know this is where Christians and Muslims are very different in their thinking. Do you not think, however, to say that Allah's mercy prevails over his anger is to say that we are safe, even if we sin? Is that not to say that it's OK to do what we want, whether it pleases Allah or not? If his mercy outweighs his anger, then it's OK for bad deeds to outweigh good deeds and everyone is going to heaven.

Peace POBook:

No, absolutely not. Unlike Christianity, we don't believe that someone else is going to absorb our sins. We are each responsible for your own. We cannot sin, repent, make the same sin again, repent....etc. We cannot be 100% certainly who will go to Jannah. As I mentioned, only Allah, swt, knows our heart. Not everyone will repent, not everyone will live long enough to repent or change their ways. That's why we must live every day like it's our last and worship Allah, swt, the way we are commanded.

Yes, of course His mercy outweighs His anger which is why we believe He will forgive us if we come to Him with all sincerety asking Him to forgive. There is no guarantees in this life or the hereafter. Allah, swt, is the sole judge of what we do. I cannot tell you that you will go to Hell for absolutely certaintly....that is not knowledge given to me. I can only tell you that based on what I do know, Shirk is an unforgiveable sin, and if you die in that state, chances are you will be headed for Hellfire.

You can't live thinking it's ok to break His laws over and over and by simply being a Muslim, Christian or Jew, that's it's enough to enter Paradise. Where is the logic in that? Paradise is something to be earned not taken for granted.

Wasalam and Peace
Hana
:sister:

 

[POBook]

Greetings once again Hana_Aku,

Thank you for your feedback.

Unlike Christianity, we don't believe that someone else is going to absorb our sins

We do not believe anyone else is going to absorb our sins. Jesus absorbed the payment of sin.

We cannot sin, repent, make the same sin again, repent....etc

This is not true Christianity. True Christianity has no desire to sin anymore. Yes, people will still sin, but this is not the desire of their heart.

Paradise is something to be earned not taken for granted

I really admire all those who, in GOD's eyes, are good enough to have earned paradise. I know that as much as I love GOD, if it was left up to me and my efforts to enter paradise, I would never be able to match the standards of a Holy and Righteous GOD. If it was simply up to me, then paradise would have nothing to do with GOD's mercy. It would be about my abilities and I would never go to paradise.