Foundations in debate for Muslims vs Atheists

[Skavau]

universe isn't eternal as it is well known. This can be proven by science and philosophy.

The universe is not "well known" to not be eternal. Science can only demonstrate the origin of this universe by asserting the Big Bang. Philosophy is completely silent on the origins of the universe, but if Philosophy was to make any comment on the universe - it could indeed conclude that the universe could be infinite.

that's what everyone believes in; the only problem arises when we go into the questions who is this Eternal and its attributes etc.

You contend that this 'eternal' being is God.

I contend that it is merely the sum total of all existence.

I think I meant that we both have similar thoughts about the definition of conclusion etc. It was off-topic anyway, so let's leave it there.

Okay.

lol, because He is the One who will grant you all that.

But it doesn't need to be like that. Why should worshiping be a prerequisite for reward in this instance? Why does God consider worship towards him of primary importance, than say good deeds done out of benevolence?

yes, no one is denying it but my point is that it shows His mercy.

By creating us, we are shown mercy?

both; live by pleasing Him for your own sake.

I don't see the need. If Islam is true, God does not need anything from me. I do not see why I should have to negate my entire life to what God decrees. I do not see why I should have to conform my lifestyle to suit God's demands. It is a strange concept to me to believe that a God created a world of people who have the capacity to create their own lives, to believe what they like and advance how they like - and then demand that it all must conform to a specific standard.

 

[Sami234]

Atheists indeed do not know the state of affairs of existence prior to the Big Bang. It is a travesty of truth that so many Muslims and Christians alike persist in the delusion that mainstream science accepts that there was absolutely nothing prior to the formation of this universe. It is just not true. It is a long accepted axiom of science that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have great reason to believe that indeed, something did exist prior to the Big Bang (ex nihilo, nihil fit being a key reason). It may be an answer indeed to assume that God prompted the Big Bang - but such an answer is without any evidence whatsoever.

Well, we don't know anything from the


Absolute nonsense. You clearly need a quick lesson on burden of proof. It is upon the individual who makes the claim that has to back it up. It is a fundamentally irrational position to state that God exists and then demand that Atheists then disprove it. It is your duty to back up your own claims. Let me demonstrate this with a more logical assumption.

Your argument appears to be that because belief in God is a 'positive' assertion, the 'negative' assertion or "bias" must be demonstrated to be true. You have provided absolutely no reason for anyone to believe this whatsoever. It is well-known in philosophy that it is impossible to disprove a negative. You cannot disprove anything. Can you disprove the existence of Thor? No. You know there is no evidence for the existence of Thor, and therefore no reason to believe in the existence of Thor - but ultimately you cannot demonstrate that Thor does not exist. This is identical to the atheistic position - just swap 'Thor' with 'God'. So it is ultimately upon the claimant to demonstrate the validity of his or her own position.
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Yeah, but the comparison between God and Thor is an absolute non-sense.

Thor is a invention. Even people worshipping Thor would say that Thor is an invention. Same for Zeus and the flying Spaghetti.

Not at all. It is a belief indeed, but it is not a 'convincing belief'. There is absolutely no evidence for it. It is simply an assertion and on equal merit with claiming that Thor created the universe and is uncreated.

Nope. Nothing to do with Thor.

It is a stupid comparison. Some people just don't understand the existence of the world without God. But everyone understand the world without a magic viking named Thor.

I don't have a proof. But I have a lot of signs. No signs for Thor. The main problem with Atheists is that they thing that we are all in a total delusion, convincing ourselves for absolutely no reason that there is a God while Atheist understood everything about the world.

We are not convincing ourselves of the existence of God for nothing. You know that or you think that only atheist understand the reality?

The fact that there is no evidence whatsoever regarding God's existence is good reason to suspect that there is no decent reason presume that God exists.

I could just say that there is a lot of reason to suspect his existence, but you just don't see it. What about that? Im serious. I really thing there is a lot of reasons to believe in him.

I know that for you there is none. Fine. But for me, there is a lot. So please, stop saying that we are all convincing ourselves for absolutely nothing that God exist.

It might be your belief. But stating it as a belief is not a convincing argument, especially for an atheist.

Okay.

So Allah tests us to see if we will obey him. That's fair enough. However, what isn't fair enough is that Allah's insistence and apparent expectation for us all to follow him. It is well known by the fact that most of the world is not Muslim, that Islam is not in fact very convincing for most people. Allah should be aware of the philosophical, scientific and ethical reasons that many people have for not being a Muslim. He should be aware that people will contest the claims presented in Islam and should be aware that many people will take intellectual opposition to Islam.

I always thougth that lot of people are not Muslims just because they actually don't understand Islam. You are an excellent example of that.

The same way, science is not convincing for people who don't know what is science.

As for ethical and philosophical reasons claimed, they can be resumed in only a single sentence :

They just don't want to submit to God and admit that they are not able to understand everything.

 

[aamirsaab]

...So Allah tests us to see if we will obey him. That's fair enough. However, what isn't fair enough is that Allah's insistence and apparent expectation for us all to follow him. It is well known by the fact that most of the world is not Muslim, that Islam is not in fact very convincing for most people. Allah should be aware of the philosophical, scientific and ethical reasons that many people have for not being a Muslim. He should be aware that people will contest the claims presented in Islam and should be aware that many people will take intellectual opposition to Islam.

Would you (or anyone here) like to converse about the logic/intelligence/ethics of the islamic teachings? I'd be more than happy to - you bring to the table one islamic teaching that you think lacks logic/intelligence/ethics and I'll prove that it does

 

[Skavau]

Well, we don't know anything from the

?

We don't know anything from the what?

Yeah, but the comparison between God and Thor is an absolute non-sense.

Thor is a invention. Even people worshipping Thor would say that Thor is an invention. Same for Zeus and the flying Spaghetti.

Not at all.

Both Thor and God share a single thing in common. They have an identical amount of evidence supporting their existence. Yet some people are happy to consider God rational, but not Thor.

Moreover, I would say that God is an invention.

Nope. Nothing to do with Thor.

It is a stupid comparison. Some people just don't understand the existence of the world without God. But everyone understand the world without a magic viking named Thor.

But equally, some people do understand the existence of the world without God. This is what so many Theists do not seem to grasp.

Moreover, the claim that God created the universe is by virtue of lack of evidence on the exact same level as the claim that Thor created the universe.

I don't have a proof. But I have a lot of signs. No signs for Thor.

But I could say that is just your subjective understanding. I could just say that you are missing the point, or not understanding the signs of Thor. It would be convenient, and condescending - but it is identical to Muslims claiming that I don't understand, or cannot grasp the signs.

Moreover, for me - I see no signs of Allah.

The main problem with Atheists is that they thing that we are all in a total delusion, convincing ourselves for absolutely no reason that there is a God while Atheist understood everything about the world.

No I don't.

I know many theists that I would not call delusional.

We are not convincing ourselves of the existence of God for nothing. You know that or you think that only atheist understand the reality?

Not at all.

I could just say that there is a lot of reason to suspect his existence, but you just don't see it. What about that?

You could. I could just with equal veracity retort that you don't understand reality and that what you think are 'signs' are actually not signs. What about that?

Either assertion from me or you asserting that the other just "doesn't see it" would be a major childish cop-out. This is debate or discussion, not petulance. It is the equivalent to someone simply saying you "don't understand" when they explain something to you. It is condescension, nothing more. It does not constitute a convincing argument.

Im serious. I really thing there is a lot of reasons to believe in him.

I am sure that you believe this.

I know that for you there is none. Fine. But for me, there is a lot. So please, stop saying that we are all convincing ourselves for absolutely nothing that God exist.

I never said that in the first place.

I always thougth that lot of people are not Muslims just because they actually don't understand Islam. You are an excellent example of that.

Irrelevant.

Whether or not I understand the intricacies or even the basics of Islam has no bearing on my position here. The claim that Islam is completely understandable and one-hundred percent coherent to every human being requires that every human being who invests their time into Islam comes out a Muslim and remains a Muslim.

We know that this is not true. We know that people have problems with Islam, be they philosophical, ethical or scientific. You can claim they 'don't understand' but it doesn't get rid of the fact that just under 80% of the world think like that.

As for ethical and philosophical reasons claimed, they can be resumed in only a single sentence :

They just don't want to submit to God and admit that they are not able to understand everything.

Do not presume what people do and do not believe.

I have both ethical and philosophical issues with Islam and it is nothing to do with your assertion below.

 

[MSalman]

replying after long time...

The universe is not "well known" to not be eternal. Science can only demonstrate the origin of this universe by asserting the Big Bang. Philosophy is completely silent on the origins of the universe, but if Philosophy was to make any comment on the universe - it could indeed conclude that the universe could be infinite.

As you said scientifically (using Big bang), it is proven that Universe indeed had beginning. As far concerning philosophy, to say that universe has existed from infinity is to say that we would have never got here as it would have taken us infinite time to get here. However, we're here, it means..

I contend that it is merely the sum total of all existence.

all the existence which makes the sum have to exist from eternity but this is not true i.e humans

But it doesn't need to be like that. Why should worshiping be a prerequisite for reward in this instance? Why does God consider worship towards him of primary importance, than say good deeds done out of benevolence?

how do you expect to get a reward in return without actually doing anything? This is like me saying: why do i've to work to get money? You see the absurdity in the question!

By creating us, we are shown mercy?

yes, because you were nothing before and not only He created you but also gave you everything to survie and enjoy your existence.

I don't see the need. If Islam is true, God does not need anything from me. I do not see why I should have to negate my entire life to what God decrees. I do not see why I should have to conform my lifestyle to suit God's demands. It is a strange concept to me to believe that a God created a world of people who have the capacity to create their own lives, to believe what they like and advance how they like - and then demand that it all must conform to a specific standard.

Again, like I said before, all Praise to be Allah Ta'ala, He is no need of what you do. It's for your own sake. If you want eternal happiness, joy and much more then you work hard for it but if you don't that's your choice. Whatever humans have isn't something they acqired on their own. They didn't existe before and nor they created themselves.

 

[Thinker]

Would you (or anyone here) like to converse about the logic/intelligence/ethics of the islamic teachings? I'd be more than happy to - you bring to the table one islamic teaching that you think lacks logic/intelligence/ethics and I'll prove that it does

I’d like to know the ‘logic, intelligence and ethics’ of the Islamic teaching that says you will go to hell if you take a photograph of someone (or have I misunderstood)?


See . . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-support/134271874-drawing-painting-seperate-body-parts.html[url]

 

[MSalman]

I’d like to know the ‘logic, intelligence and ethics’ of the Islamic teaching that says you will go to hell if you take a photograph of someone (or have I misunderstood)?


See . . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...][/quote]let's talk about this in that thread

 

[THE END]

replying after long time...

As you said scientifically (using Big bang), it is proven that Universe indeed had beginning. As far concerning philosophy, to say that universe has existed from infinity is to say that we would have never got here as it would have taken us infinite time to get here. However, we're here, it means..

all the existence which makes the sum have to exist from eternity but this is not true i.e humans

.

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

to claim that an eternal amount of events had to be concluded before our
existence, then your saying that eternity came to an end as we exists here today, which is a contradiction in terms.

It is like if someone said

“this car will only get to its destination after its wheels have spun infinitely many times,” and then claimed that the car arrived at its destination.


It is clear that the car could never have gotten to its destination
if an infinite number of spins was the condition for its arrival.