France: Offensive Cartoons Fine, Hijabs Not Fine.

[Futuwwa]

The cartoons you hate so much are a necessity and have been around for a long time to point out the wrong doings and hypocrisies of all religions and governments. So if you dont like it get out and go live in a country where you have no right to expression and dissent, try Saudi Arabia. Most likely you wont like it. This is why people move to free countries such as the European countries and Western DEMOCRATIC governments.

Care to take your own advice? You say we should move away if we don't like the way the country is. Yet, simultaneously, you whine about how Western countries are supposedly bending over backwards to appease Muslims. If you don't like it, how about moving to some country which doesn't? I hear North Korea doesn't abide the opium of the people much.

 

[Futuwwa]

Western societies and its people have been very accepting and acknowledging the need to be tolerant of religious expression even as they see the atrocities in their own countries and around the world in which you might claim are not done in the name of the religion while that person screams the prophets name as he is killing a so called "infidel." So to me when you say western countries have not bent over far enough my question is to you how far do we need to bend until you completely
shove it up our ass or would you prefer us on our knees in submission.

But now I am racist one says, really shows how absurd your argument is.

The fact that you think Western societies are bending over backwards simply because they haven't held us collectively liable and banned Islam despite the existence of Islamic extremism speaks volumes about you. You speak about our freedom of religion as if it were a sufferance to be grateful for, while your freedom of religion is an absolute which it is outrageous to even think about questioning.

 

[sister herb]

Are the Western Europe countries really free and there the most important value is freedom of speech? How then if I claim in the public that holocaust (Jews) hasn´t never happened, it is a crime and I will get punishment? Where is my freedom of speech then?

Ooops sorry, there is freedom of speech only when it goes as saying something against islam?

 

[Peshpak]

the Messengers of Almighty God carries capital punishment in the absence of repentance -depending on the situation of course.
.

I'm with you bro' (NOT) as OP says . . the infidels have banned the hijab (I thought was Burka but could be wrong) so we need to kill some of them - right?

 

[Peshpak]

i am in the process of "a tale of two cities" hint hint though it's difficult to get immersed in it with all these happenings.

Bro, you need to get a life. Day after day in the back bedroom of your mom's house doing cyber jihad isn't going to get you a place in heaven. You know, I mean you really know that Muhammed (phuh) gave you clear direction on where you must be and it's NOT Birmingham! Walk the walk bro!

 

[M.I.A.]

I don't think we need to kill anyone, western society has mostly moved away from capital punishment..

Maybe mass demonstrations and political campaigns..

Posters, leaflets and rally's.

Campaigning for change at local government level.

All the tools that we feel are being used against us.

Unfortunately, its easy to be a football pundit.. Its hard to actually play a good game.

But the kicker is that even those need the right figure heads to be successful.

Truth needs a manager in this day and age.

And that's the sad thing about asking for sharia and caliphates and such like..

If it were easy.. It would have been done.

The above post would probably not help those already uneasy with Islam..

Not sure how it works really.

But I doubt many would let people make the place worse on purpose..

Except France apparently, freedom of speech is not the same as abuse of freedom of speech.

 

[M.I.A.]

Most clever people don't overthrow governments...unnecessary headache. Take a look at big business.

No, not another conspiracy.. Just they way things work IRL.

Although technically its just people living there lives and investing there money.

 

[freewillynow]

The fact that you think Western societies are bending over backwards simply because they haven't held us collectively liable and banned Islam despite the existence of Islamic extremism speaks volumes about you. You speak about our freedom of religion as if it were a sufferance to be grateful for, while your freedom of religion is an absolute which it is outrageous to even think about questioning.

What a bunch of babble, I never said nor will it happen where we have to ban Islam the religion, the problem is with political Islam, now if you cant separate the two in western secular societies then there is going to be a problem which is what we have here today which is they way they want, well they get. The countries that have chosen secular societies have every right to continue as so, and the laws will be made by the people. Now Muslims are just a small percent in France but they are growing reproducing at twice the rate of all non muslims, there is also many French nationals and Jewish people leaving France. One day maybe you can turn it into a Sharia country where you can oppress Christians and Jews and oppress their right to worship and treat non believers "infadels" as beneath you. Great cant wait to go there.

Oh and it speaks volumes about you about how ungrateful you are for the freedom of religion that Western cultures afforded Islam. Could you imagine if the tables were turned and Christians went into a predominantly Muslim country and began setting up shop, such as in France with the enclaves where Sharia becomes the law of the land in these municipalities. The so called "no-go zones" its political and its ridiculous women and men are not equal first of all and there is whole host of problems with them.

The true irony of this all is that political Islam and its fundamentalist such as idiots like Choudary want to use the democracy to shut it down and instill Sharia which is not a democracy. Now it just comes down to the question. Do you want Democracy or do you want a religion to rule a country. I want Secular Democracy. What do you want? Islam? Well there are countries that are doing this please go there. I heard Choudary is moving soon maybe hook up with him. Just don't come to my country with your crybaby woe is me blame America, blame Zionist, blame everybody else because we are infallable because we follow the word of God bullcrap so that we must be silent, walk on eggshells over the prophet "peace be upon him" everytime you speak his name.

 

[Futuwwa]

What a bunch of babble, I never said nor will it happen where we have to ban Islam the religion, the problem is with political Islam, now if you cant separate the two in western secular societies then there is going to be a problem which is what we have here today which is they way they want, well they get. The countries that have chosen secular societies have every right to continue as so, and the laws will be made by the people.

And if the people choose to make laws in according to their religious values?

Oh and it speaks volumes about you about how ungrateful you are for the freedom of religion that Western cultures afforded Islam.

Yes, I am utterly, completely, unequivocally unapologetic about the notion that my freedom to be a Muslim is a fundamental right, not something that is afforded. To respect my freedom of religion is not a gift of generosity, it's a moral mandate. I categorically reject the notion that it is for any society, Western or other, to regard this right as a sufferance which it can choose to afford or not afford.

Could you imagine if the tables were turned and Christians went into a predominantly Muslim country and began setting up shop, such as in France with the enclaves where Sharia becomes the law of the land in these municipalities.

A cute thought experiment. What exactly is it meant to imply?

The so called "no-go zones" its political and its ridiculous women and men are not equal first of all and there is whole host of problems with them.

If the state does not enforce its sovereignty over a part of its internationally recognized sovereign territory, the fault lies with the state for choosing not to do so. Maybe you should take it up with the overly wimpy law enforcement that allows it to happen.

The true irony of this all is that political Islam and its fundamentalist such as idiots like Choudary want to use the democracy to shut it down and instill Sharia which is not a democracy.

Irrelevant. Democracy isn't true democracy unless the citizenry are able to democratically choose to replace democracy with something else.

Now it just comes down to the question. Do you want Democracy or do you want a religion to rule a country.

You speak as if they are mutually exclusive. They aren't, not if the citizenry want there to be a state religion.

I want Secular Democracy. What do you want? Islam? Well there are countries that are doing this please go there. I heard Choudary is moving soon maybe hook up with him. Just don't come to my country with your crybaby woe is me blame America, blame Zionist, blame everybody else because we are infallable because we follow the word of God bullcrap so that we must be silent, walk on eggshells over the prophet "peace be upon him" everytime you speak his name.

The way you use the phrase "my country" implies that it is your country, and not mine, or any other Muslim's. Chances are your country has a significant number of Muslim citizens. Do you reject them as full and equal citizens who own the country just as much as you do, and have just as much a democratic right to have a say about its laws and governance? Is it the prerogative of you and whatever in-group you self-identify with to dictate what the country is to be like, and which the not-fully-equal-citizen Muslims are just to accept as-is or leave?

 

[Futuwwa]

I was under the assumption that the burqa was banned and that the hijab was acceptable?

Hijabs are banned in institutes of primary and secondary education.

 

[Abz2000]

I'm with you bro' (NOT) as OP says . . the infidels have banned the hijab (I thought was Burka but could be wrong) so we need to kill some of them - right?


Bro, you need to get a life. Day after day in the back bedroom of your mom's house doing cyber jihad isn't going to get you a place in heaven. You know, I mean you really know that Muhammed (phuh) gave you clear direction on where you must be and it's NOT Birmingham! Walk the walk bro!

I had mentioned the punishment for abuse or mockery of the Messengers of God in the absence of repentence.

Hijab and niqab are items of modesty, and are also a requirement in Islam, hijab definitely and niqab optionally or depending on if you think there's too many pervs staring. Some consider it a requirement, i'd say better to wear it than not wear anything. Soooo many pervs out there - including Sarkozy.


No government on earth has the right to ban them and are in violation of God's Law and liable to punishment.

Yo dike-d, i'm not living in my mom's house, although i would if necessary.
And i'm not living in Birmingham though i would if necessary. Alhamdulillah who gave me something decent although it was obscured from my sight before.
Doing cyber jihad for the sake of Allah does get a place in heaven if it's sincere and there are misconceptions that require countering, i don't know where you got your information from that it's not. Actually it's the best thing to do if you're observed 24/7.

And since you're trying to push me and appear/claim to be able to know where the Messenger of Allah Muhammad pbuh wants me to be, please tell me.
Please tell me because i really need a bit of guidance for the sake of Allah.

*Originally Posted by*freewillynow*: how far do we need to bend until you completely shove it up our ass or would you prefer us on our knees in submission.

Repent! It is a horrific crime to commit sodomy, we would never want to do such,
rather we feel dismayed that you sometimes revile us and harm us for trying to tell you that sodomy is illegal according the highest Law, that is God's. Please read the story of Prophet Lut (pbuh).

You should bow in prayer and submission to God and also pray on your knees in humility.
That is what a Muslim does.

Why do you humiliate yourselves by insisting on bending over to commit sodomy with other men and getting on your knees for them. No gay heads or gay tails ok?
It is a grave sin.
Please, in the name of God, i exhort you to repent and desist from such shameful and abominable acts.

 

[M.I.A.]

What a bunch of babble, I never said nor will it happen where we have to ban Islam the religion, the problem is with political Islam, now if you cant separate the two in western secular societies then there is going to be a problem which is what we have here today which is they way they want, well they get. The countries that have chosen secular societies have every right to continue as so, and the laws will be made by the people. Now Muslims are just a small percent in France but they are growing reproducing at twice the rate of all non muslims, there is also many French nationals and Jewish people leaving France. One day maybe you can turn it into a Sharia country where you can oppress Christians and Jews and oppress their right to worship and treat non believers "infadels" as beneath you. Great cant wait to go there.

Oh and it speaks volumes about you about how ungrateful you are for the freedom of religion that Western cultures afforded Islam. Could you imagine if the tables were turned and Christians went into a predominantly Muslim country and began setting up shop, such as in France with the enclaves where Sharia becomes the law of the land in these municipalities. The so called "no-go zones" its political and its ridiculous women and men are not equal first of all and there is whole host of problems with them.

The true irony of this all is that political Islam and its fundamentalist such as idiots like Choudary want to use the democracy to shut it down and instill Sharia which is not a democracy. Now it just comes down to the question. Do you want Democracy or do you want a religion to rule a country. I want Secular Democracy. What do you want? Islam? Well there are countries that are doing this please go there. I heard Choudary is moving soon maybe hook up with him. Just don't come to my country with your crybaby woe is me blame America, blame Zionist, blame everybody else because we are infallable because we follow the word of God bullcrap so that we must be silent, walk on eggshells over the prophet "peace be upon him" everytime you speak his name.

...well,

political islam is new, unfortunately you have no idea what the people want.

thats why the only people that get on tv are radicals and soap stars.

i may have seen a picture of him drinking woodpecker cider from a few decades ago but its probably photoshop.

but as long as you believe it.


anyway use these threads to reinforce your views.

i dont blame him or you...

i literally dont have the answers to fix your point of view, if you feel the need to spread them then thats up to you..

i feel you are like the bnp members complaining that a cross still hangs outside a building converted into a mosque...


its an insane situation.

and yes, peace be upon them.


anyway iv known some homeless people in my time, it is EXTREMELY hard to change ones world view even when provided for.. everybody thinks the other guy is crazy.

 

[Abz2000]

...well,

political islam is new, unfortunately you have no idea what the people want.

Omg lol.
Whereadya get that info from shugz?
The collins? or the telegraph?

Please read a detailed biography of the Messenger of God pbuh and you'll find that the latter part of his life, including revelations, focysed on functions of the state and meeting with heads of state.

thats why the only people that get on tv are radicals and soap stars.

Yup radical puppets sponsored by rothschild and co.
Both Cameron and boris are bullingdon i take it - and that seems to be rothschild dominated.
They have these horrific ritual drunken destruction ceremonies after eating and drinking sessions, and then their fathers offer to pay. One wine cellar owner refused their money - but knew he couldn't get her majesty's police to do much.

i may have seen a picture of him drinking woodpecker cider from a few decades ago but its probably photoshop.

but as long as you believe it.

Umar (ra) was also a drunken reveller in jahiliyyah too.
Repentance made him whole.
And God made him our leader MashaAllah.


May Allah guide us to refrain from evil and submit to Him and be sincerely guided by His Laws.
Soon the unjust are gonna know what i meant.

 

[sister herb]

Wow you are an idiot, unless you question was not really rhetorical in nature which it obviously was, so in America it is not a crime to say that the holocaust was a lie. You can scream it to a certain degree. You can set up a march in the capital if you really want to and our police will protect you even though most will not agree. Now it is different in private property such as a business, office building, restaurant. People also say bad things about all types of religions and have rallies, it is not a crime. It is a crime when you politicize it preaching to over throw government and plotting and conspiring to kill or harm people. Not that complicated.

a) In many countries in the free and democratic Western Europe it is crime to claim that holocaust never happened. I didn´t talk about America.

b) Calling other member here as an idiot is against the rules and good manners. Did I call you like that when I disagreed with you? No, I didn´t.

This is comment from the pope about Paris attack:

"Pope Francis spoke out today about the Paris terror attacks, saying, “One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith. There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity."

I agree in this case with the pope but as freedom of speech, this "magazine" might publish something dirt picture about the pope too in its the next number. Insulting others is now called as freedom of speech in Europe.

In my post I wrote about features of the freedom of speech. I didn´t support to kill people for this. Many now in the west support it after this attack. When they can´t do nothing against those real terrorists, they prefer to attack against innocent people (muslims) whose haven´t nothing to do with kind of attacks. So, they are ready to kill innocents for their freedom of speech (freedom to insult others). By that, they are thinking exactly the same way like those whose made Paris attack. Beat terror using terror, not against terrorists themselves but against innocents.

This is how this "problem of foes of the western-style freedom of speech" is intended to solve?



http://www.vox.com/2015/1/12/7533159/fox-news-pirro-rant

The above link relates to the words of Fox News Reporter, Jeanine Pirro, in reference to radical islamists. Some comments (not in the link itself) asked, if a Muslim were to repeat the same words, share the same sentiments but towards other groups, namely Non Muslims, are the same freedoms to express views also the same?

 

[sister herb]

Article: http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...rance-cracks-down-free-speech-order-defend-it


"Launching the French government’s newly declared (or re-declared) “war on terrorism,” and its crackdown on dissent, Prime Minister Manuel Valls said that “racism, anti-Semitism and justifying terrorism” were “not opinions.”

Comment: Anti Islam is an opinion, but Anti Semitism is not and is a criminal offence.

"France, Germany and other European countries already have “hate speech laws” and it has been much remarked upon how unevenly they are applied.

Why, for example, has a Germany so concerned about “extremism,” and whose leader Angela Merkel marched in Paris, not banned the growing anti-Muslim marches in its own cities?"

Comment: Hate speech laws are applied to protestors, large or small, marching against the ban on the Face Veil and can lead to arrest and incarceration.

“The questions of immigration and Islam have been clearly posed. They must be asked calmly, involving everyone.” (former French President)

Comment: So Islam is now a question and is intermingled as much of a serious issue as immigration. Whether 'the question' about Islam is asked 'calmly' or violently, does it really matter, the fact is it is a threat. Notice he did not say 'Islamic terrorism' or Islamic extremism' he said very clearly 'Islam'.

"Sarkozy has proposed a host of repressive measures from arming local police to “expelling any imam who holds views that do not respect the values of the republic.”

Could anyone imagine Sarkozy, or any politician, demanding “expulsion” of French Jewish or French Christian clerics if they espouse views that are antithetical to the republic like believing that Israel should be “Jewish” or that France should be “Muslim-free?”

Sarkozy’s clear implication – although he doesn’t say it – is that every Muslim cleric is always already foreign and has some other place outside France to which they more properly belong.

The government’s crackdown appears to be an effort to pander to this authoritarian sentiment and head off Sarkozy’s challenge."

Comment: The above remarks show 'freedom of speech' is free as long as some people exercise it (Non Muslims) and others refrain from it (Muslims). When 'freedom of speech' is given to some, but denied to others, what is left of 'liberal democracy'? After all, one of the key features or definitions of what constitutes a liberal democracy is that all minorities are respected and must share the rights and privileges of the majority. Any breach in this definition makes the same society move closer to authoritarianism. Is France becoming authoritarian in its approach to Islam and Muslims?

"It was already on such bogus grounds that France banned rallies during the summer protesting Israel’s massacre in Gaza. And for years, France has been prosecuting activists in the boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement."

Comment: The above relates to charges the protests were 'Anti Semetic' and in breach of the 'hate' laws despite the peaceful nature of the marches. While donations, charities and organisations that accept and collect for Jewish causes is permitted, those advocating the same for Palestinians are held to be illegal.

 

[Zafran]

france's largest demographic is 45% of the french are christians (almost all roman catholics), 35% are non religious, atheist or agnostic, 3% are muslims, 1% are buddhist, 6% adhere to unspecified other religions, and the muslim population is growing as they are having higher birth rates almost twice of any other group. All this while french born non muslim citizens are fleeing france. This is a fact.

it is not the hijab that has being outlawed it is the burka. Covering the entire face is where that crosses the line as facial expressions are very important for daily communication, and it is also a security issue.

Both of these statements are incorrect - the hijab is banned in government places like all other religious symbols.

The population of muslims in France is around 7.5% its the largest muslim population in western europe.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

 

[M.I.A.]

Abz2000 wrote....

Umar (ra) was also a drunken reveller in jahiliyyah too.
Repentance made him whole.
And God made him our leader MashaAllah.


May Allah guide us to refrain from evil and submit to Him and be sincerely guided by His Laws.
Soon the unjust are gonna know what i meant.


Well, I guess that's me done then.. If you killed all the infedels and lopped of every bodies head that gave you a funny look.

Then none of that would not have happened.would it?

 

[gurufabbes]

France has several odd double standards of free speech and freedom of expression.

Enforced secularism, both formal (as at school) and informal (such as in social situations or at the workplace).
These are things that I have problems with here and still continue to not understand.

It's ultimately their country and culture, and it is up to those that arrive to adapt, even if what they have to adapt to is repugnant and different to what one would be used to. Officially this country is not multicultural like the UK is, and it shows.

 

[Zafran]

France has several odd double standards of free speech and freedom of expression.

Enforced secularism, both formal (as at school) and informal (such as in social situations or at the workplace).
These are things that I have problems with here and still continue to not understand.

It's ultimately their country and culture, and it is up to those that arrive to adapt, even if what they have to adapt to is repugnant and different to what one would be used to. Officially this country is not multicultural like the UK is, and it shows.

what happens to the citizens that are born in France that are Jewish, Sikh, Hindu Muslim or anything other then what the majority adhere to. Is it not their country as well? This question could probably be applied to every country on earth - from the copts of Egypt, The Jews of Iran to the Sikhs of India.

 

[gurufabbes]

what happens to the citizens that are born in France that are Jewish, Sikh, Hindu Muslim or anything other then what the majority adhere to. Is it not their country as well? This question could probably be applied to every country on earth - from the copts of Egypt, The Jews of Iran to the Sikhs of India.

This is the problem with mass immigration.
If you bring in millions of people that have different values, cultures and religions than your own, what amount of accomodation is reasonable?
At what point does a majority population of post-1968 (watershed even in modern France) agnostic and atheistic liberals feel like it?
To be honest, with this enforced trend of secularism, everyone is hit: Jews, Muslims and religious Christians (the few that are left).