France's ban on burqas, niqabs takes effect

[Maryan0]

Semantics.

If you are allowed to do something (cover your face, carry a weapon, overfish, whatever) that I am not allowed to do, then you have special rights I do not have. Religion should not confer such special treatment. I don't know how to put it any plainer than that.

You are not typically allowed to carry a knife or cover your face in public places but allowances are made based on people being allowed religious freedom. The Supreme overturned the ban on the Kirpan because there was significant cause to do so in that it infringed on the right of a religious group to practice their religion freely. If you feel that not wearing a ski mask or baseball cap infringes on your rights as a citizen then perhaps you should also take your issue to the Supreme Court.
and are you referring to the natives on overfishing? do you feel they are not entitled to special rights based on their history?
Salam

 

[MSalman]

as-salaamu alaykum

I'm not sure if this has been posted before but really subhaanAllah - may Allah Azza wa Jal makes things easier for our sisters in France, ameen

 

[Cabdullahi]

She describes herself on her website as a liberal Muslim. She is a secularist, a reformist, a feminist, and was a board member of the now disbanded Progressive Muslim Union of North America, which endorsed the mixed gender salaat that was led by Amina Wadud as a female "imam".

Even though the niqaabi sister didn't get equal time to speak, what she was able to say, in less time and words, was strong, powerful and logical.

May Allah guide Mona, ameen.[/SIZE]

The keyword i was looking for thanks very much

+o(

 

[Dagless]

If you are allowed to weark a burka, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask. If you are not allowed to cover your face, I should not be allowed to cover mine.

That maybe your opinion but it's not how things work. Religious exceptions are a real thing. If you say it's part of your religion to wear a mask then you maybe able to go through the same channels as other religions and have some kind of exception applied. Other than you have no reason to wear a ski mask unless you're skiing.

I stand with you against bans on hajib, not because your religion tells you to wear hajib, but because I can think of no rational reason to stop you. That will not carry over to all religiously motivated activities. What would you say to somebody who refused life saving surgery or a blood tranfusion for their child or who did genital mutilation on their daughter because their religion told them to? And what would you say to somebody who said their religion told them not to pay their taxes (but who nevertheless stayed in the society and drew its benefits)?

Obviously it's within reason, as has been mentioned many times in this thread. If the practice is harming others or there is some other overwhelming reason then it may be stopped. The niqab has been labelled as a security risk in some situations which is why that has been addressed and people have agreed to remove it in places where there is a concern (airports, banks, courts, etc).

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Yes I do know. And I also understand that other, non muslim people may wish to cover their faces for similar reasons or for entirely different good intentioned reasons.

I do not care what the reasons are, as we do not have the time or resources or ability to know the minds and intentions of all people. As has been brought up before in this thread there is nothing stopping people from lying about their motives or dressing up as something they are not. Either covering ones face is or is not a security concern. Either we do or we do not allow it. If we disallow it we apply that rule evenly to all people with no special treatment for anybody.

If you are allowed to weark a burka, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask. If you are not allowed to cover your face, I should not be allowed to cover mine.

I stand with you against bans on hajib, not because your religion tells you to wear hajib, but because I can think of no rational reason to stop you. That will not carry over to all religiously motivated activities. What would you say to somebody who refused life saving surgery or a blood tranfusion for their child or who did genital mutilation on their daughter because their religion told them to? And what would you say to somebody who said their religion told them not to pay their taxes (but who nevertheless stayed in the society and drew its benefits)?

Greetings of peace to you

If you do not care, then i dont see the point of discussion regarding someone who is basing their claim on a reason. If we are being even in applying that rule on everyone, that means we must give everyone their rights, what about Human rights? giving the people the right to practice their faith freely.

I agree you can wear ski mask if we are allowed to wear a Burka. But the difference is you will be wearing a ski mask if your skiing. But if you wish to wear a ski mask in the normal day, then the difference is the muslim women will be wearing it for a reason, such as covering herself so no non-mahram will stare at her, also requiring her to lower her gaze, but if you wear a ski mask, what are your reasons? Because if the muslim women have the right to cover their face, you feel you have the right not because of her but of your own free will, even though you do not have a perfectly good explanation for it and saying your doing it because they are. I dont think it makes any sense at all, but nobody is against you wearing a ski mask in public you may do so. but keep in mind the reasons are very different.

If you stand with us against the Hijaab bans, then keep in mind it means you are supporting the muslim women and the muslims and you know the reasons for hijaab are good. You cant just support everyone without knowing why your sticking up for them. Its good that you are, but you make it look like wearing the Hijaab is a bad thing especially when you say "but because I can think of no rational reason to stop you." What i mean is do you understand why the religion tells the women to wear Hijaab?

This is an Islamic board, please talk about the issue regarding Islaam. If i were to support someone i would do some research on what they are, who they are, why they are doing this etc.

Apologies if i didnt make sense , feel free to ask any questions.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But if you wish to wear a ski mask in the normal day, then the difference is the muslim women will be wearing it for a reason, such as covering herself so no non-mahram will stare at her, also requiring her to lower her gaze, but if you wear a ski mask, what are your reasons?

I argue that my reasons are not relevant, and that the laws should apply equally to both of us. What if I have very personal reasons that I do not wish to share (say for example if I was horribly disfigured but don't to tell people that), should I be forced to state my reason for wearing a mask? Or in a fair society should I simply be allowed the same freedoms you are?

And no, I do not recognize "free exercise of religion" as being something that should trump any other valid law. And I am ashamed of my country's top courts for allowing that to be the case here. You should be allowed to exercise your religion freely, but only to the point that you are not infringing on the rights of others, and only if you keep within what is otherwise legal. Now, If those laws forbid something your religion demands, then I am all for a closer look at the law to see if it is reasonable, and if it isnt, then strike it down for all, not just for some special class of religious people.

If you stand with us against the Hijaab bans, then keep in mind it means you are supporting the muslim women and the muslims and you know the reasons for hijaab are good.

The reasons are not relevant to me. I stand with you Muslims on this because such a ban against hajib would be discrimination against you based on religion. I do oppose discrimination for you based on religion, but I equally oppose discrimination agaisnt you based on religion. This is consistent. This is fair.

Its good that you are, but you make it look like wearing the Hijaab is a bad thing especially when you say "but because I can think of no rational reason to stop you." What i mean is do you understand why the religion tells the women to wear Hijaab?

I don't say it is a bad thing. I say it is a cultural thing, a religious thing, and a personal choice that harms no one. Yes, I do understand why muslim women wear the hajib (they see it as decency and keeping prying eyes of men off of them etc), but I don't find that at all relevant.

As to if I personally think it is "good", I really don't judge it. If it is what muslim women are comfortable with then I support it for them. Keep in mind, however, that I feel the same way about nudists going naked (if that is their personal choice). I would oppose either of these styles of dress/undress being forced on anyone, but I don't see any reason to believe that either is.

If i were to support someone i would do some research on what they are, who they are, why they are doing this etc.

I don't need to identify with you or agree with you or share your views to support your basic human rights. I can support the muslima's right to be free of persecution and to have equal rights under the law just like I can support the homosexual man's right to be free from persecution and have equal rights under the law.

Apologies if i didnt make sense , feel free to ask any questions.

You are well spoken. We simply have different vantage points.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace to you Pygoscelis

I argue that my reasons are not relevant, and that the laws should apply equally to both of us. What if I have very personal reasons that I do not wish to share (say for example if I was horribly disfigured but don't to tell people that), should I be forced to state my reason for wearing a mask? Or in a fair society should I simply be allowed the same freedoms you are?.

You are missing the point, it is far away from the point. Wearing the Niqaab and Burka are worn for totally different reasons to what reasons you are trying to proove. I do understand what your saying but it is very different. If the person wants to wear a mask, they may do so. There choice.
People have hairstyles these days, where you can hardly see any part of their face.

And no, I do not recognize "free exercise of religion" as being something that should trump any other valid law. And I am ashamed of my country's top courts for allowing that to be the case here. You should be allowed to exercise your religion freely, but only to the point that you are not infringing on the rights of others, and only if you keep within what is otherwise legal. Now, If those laws forbid something your religion demands, then I am all for a closer look at the law to see if it is reasonable, and if it isnt, then strike it down for all, not just for some special class of religious people..

To what point? to the point that the women dresses as she wills? without no force, but by her own will. What rights are muslim women infringing on? Yes if there is a reason for it, they can be reasonable and fair in having checks like they do in airports etc. But they cannot take away the right of a citizen, who lives and causes no harm to society.

The reasons are not relevant to me. I stand with you Muslims on this because such a ban against hajib would be discrimination against you based on religion. I do oppose discrimination for you based on religion, but I equally oppose discrimination agaisnt you based on religion. This is consistent. This is fair..

It is indeed fair when they are being fair. Taking away the rights of the women who are disatisfied isnt fair nor justified. The women are just like any sister on this board or any other women innocent out there.

I don't say it is a bad thing. I say it is a cultural thing, a religious thing, and a personal choice that harms no one. Yes, I do understand why muslim women wear the hajib (they see it as decency and keeping prying eyes of men off of them etc), but I don't find that at all relevant. .

You dont find that relevant, but be sure there are those who who do and they do what they can to get justice. We are all people, we have different natures, nor are we perfect.

As to if I personally think it is "good", I really don't judge it. If it is what muslim women are comfortable with then I support it for them. Keep in mind, however, that I feel the same way about nudists going naked (if that is their personal choice). I would oppose either of these styles of dress/undress being forced on anyone, but I don't see any reason to believe that either is. .

The muslim women who wear the veil and burka themselves, and those who are (may Allaah forbid) are nudists by their own desires, they are those who have no morals values, they do what pleases them whereas the case of the one that obeys her creator does what pleases her and her creator. The muslim wears the veil due to the command of her lord, she knows that her creator who created her knows her nature better than her, yours and mines, so he knows whats best for us, what does the other women know? I know where you are coming from, but sometimes you have to look at if from perspective that benefits the person aswell. Realise that we will all die one day, we have to quickly look at what we will take with us. We need to realise the reason to our creation, why we are here.

I don't need to identify with you or agree with you or share your views to support your basic human rights. I can support the muslima's right to be free of persecution and to have equal rights under the law just like I can support the homosexual man's right to be free from persecution and have equal rights under the law..

Indeed you have the right as anyone has the right to speak of their own opinions, but some opinions are not right, some are also wrong as they are not causing justice. We all have the same rights as individuals under the law, i agree, but its us individuals who take the rights away from ourselves, the law takes no rights away from us, but people are taking away the rights of others and some even of themselves.

.. peace ..

 

[GuestFellow]

If you are allowed to do something (cover your face, carry a weapon, overfish, whatever) that I am not allowed to do, then you have special rights I do not have. Religion should not confer such special treatment. I don't know how to put it any plainer than that.

Special rights serve a purpose. It is beneficial to a particular group of people, but not others. Why would you carry a Kirpan? Your not a Sikh.

There is no fixed style of Kirpan and it can be anything from a few inches to three feet long. It is kept in a sheath and can be worn over or under clothing.

The Kirpan can symbolise:

• Spirituality
• The soldier part of the Soldier-Saints
• Defence of good
• Defence of the weak
• The struggle against injustice
• A metaphor for God

For a Sikh the fact that the Guru has instructed the Sikhs to wear the 5 Ks is an entirely sufficient reason, and no more need be said.

The symbols have become greatly more powerful with each passing year of Sikh history.

Every Sikh remembers that every Sikh warrior, saint, or martyr since 1699, and every living member of the Khalsa, is united with them in having adopted the same 5 Ks.

Source

 

[Aadila]

Perhaps you might direct that to abdullah_001, who seems to disagree? I'm not 'pretending' anything, although I do find it curious you do not consider whether or not to comply a moral issue. But of course, no doubt I just don't understand.


I'm sorry, but if fiqh is not based on the matter of opinions of people, then what is it? The fact the sources are the same (and in the case of hadith, even that isn't necessarily true) does not mean interpretations are the same, and what are differening interpretations but different opinions?



At this point you just don't seem to have an argument! So we had perhaps best leave it there.

Praise be to Allah,

What you wrote offends me my friend. First off all, there is no subjectivity in the morals of Islam, there is only one united belief in Islam and anyone who is not part of that are not Muslims. All the people who believe the banning of the burqas are not Muslims. The women who you claim to be Muslim that do not choose to wear the burqas are not Muslim. They are betrayers and the slaves of western world. If there are only 2,000 women who wear the burqas then there are only 2,000 women in Islam. I notice you are a Buddhist, have you considered converting to Islam? The Western nations are disgusting, it is only a matter of time before we Muslims will convert them. Why should children not be allowed to wear the burqas? Would you sacrafice Allah just for petty human learning interactions and this made up western psychology of learning from faces? Psychology is just invented by sex crazy western animals who want to see decent Muslim women face so they will rape and go crazy. The burqas is our protection and the president of France wants to take that away, who himself is a evil women raping monster, he is married to a past nude model.

Islam is a religion that will stand up for itself unlike Buddhism that rots in it's anti-war and non-violence even against the oppressors. The one's who take action are always more worthy than those who do not. Buddhism is a lazy religion that will die and will not sustain itself. Have you read the Quran?

 

[Sol Invictus]

The women who you claim to be Muslim that do not choose to wear the burqas are not Muslim. [...] If there are only 2,000 women who wear the burqas then there are only 2,000 women in Islam.

i was always under the impression that this was not true. so a woman is only a real muslim if they wear a burqa? as it relates to the rest of your post i simply do not know what to say other than shake my head at the lack of charity presented. going out of one's way to insult the beliefs of others and effectively call a whole nation of people disgusting certainly is not the right way of sharing the islamic brand of love and charity. if we can not agree with one another then at the very least we should respect one another. but hey, that's just me, and i certainly can't make you adhere to this but i would have thought that islam taught the same thing. hopefully i'm not wrong.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Praise be to Allah,

What you wrote offends me my friend. First off all, there is no subjectivity in the morals of Islam, there is only one united belief in Islam and anyone who is not part of that are not Muslims. All the people who believe the banning of the burqas are not Muslims. The women who you claim to be Muslim that do not choose to wear the burqas are not Muslim. They are betrayers and the slaves of western world. If there are only 2,000 women who wear the burqas then there are only 2,000 women in Islam. I notice you are a Buddhist, have you considered converting to Islam? The Western nations are disgusting, it is only a matter of time before we Muslims will convert them. Why should children not be allowed to wear the burqas? Would you sacrafice Allah just for petty human learning interactions and this made up western psychology of learning from faces? Psychology is just invented by sex crazy western animals who want to see decent Muslim women face so they will rape and go crazy. The burqas is our protection and the president of France wants to take that away, who himself is a evil women raping monster, he is married to a past nude model.

Islam is a religion that will stand up for itself unlike Buddhism that rots in it's anti-war and non-violence even against the oppressors. The one's who take action are always more worthy than those who do not. Buddhism is a lazy religion that will die and will not sustain itself. Have you read the Quran?

This post is misleading, false and incorrect and it is clear that you are overcome with emotion and have therefore not used knowledge wisdom or tact in any of your reply. Firstly there is a difference of opinion regarding whether or not niqaab is either obligatory or just preferrable but those who choose not to wear it are entitled not to because they take the other valid opinion of scholars on this matter so for you to state that any Muslim women who chooses not to wear s not a Muslim then you are classing most Muslim women in this world as not being Muslim. The rest of your post is nonsensical.

Please learn basic knowledge before making such a false and misleading assertions and you have no right to make takfir classing any women who does not wear niqaab as not Muslim. Anything a Muslim accuses another of which does not apply to them goes back to the accuser.

 

[GuestFellow]

Salaam

What do you expect? He's a secularist, they have a habit of foaming at the mouth when they see public expressions of faith.

Salaam,

I've heard many people say secularism is about separating religion from politics but I disagree. For now people have been able to practice their religion but I suspect secularism will start to govern how people should live, thus making it difficult for people to practice their faith. Secularism does not equate to tolerance at all.

His rationalisations are little more than a polite way of saying this

I like the picture lol.

 

[S.Belle]

Praise be to Allah,

The women who you claim to be Muslim that do not choose to wear the burqas are not Muslim. They are betrayers and the slaves of western world. If there are only 2,000 women who wear the burqas then there are only 2,000 women in Islam.

I am deeply offended by this.
I am muslim just as you just because you choose to wear niqab or burqa doesnt make you a better muslim.
It is the heart of the woman who is wearing the hijab, burqa, or the niqab that matters because a woman who is wearing hijab could be more pious than a woman wearing a burqa.

They are betrayers and the slaves of western world. If there are only 2,000 women who wear the burqas then there are only 2,000 women in Islam.

I am only a slave to Allah.

It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]

Please watch who u make accusations about bc in the end it could turn around and bite you on the bottom.

Good Day