France's ban on burqas, niqabs takes effect

[Pygoscelis]

The question to me is if the law violates the constitution of France. If it is in accordance with their laws, then the citizens of France need to work towards greater religious freedom.

Agreed.

I can understand a ban on full face coverings, for security reasons. But I can not get behind any kind of ban on face veils directed specifically at muslims. And I can't get behind a ban on covering one's hair. You should be able to wear a muslim face veil anywhere I can wear a ski mask. And you should be allowed to wear a hair covering anywhere I can wear a baseball cap.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Oh and what on earth have minarets ever done to harm Switzerland?

LOL That is the most blatant and ridiculous one of all. It really underscores the PR problem Islam has, or war on Islam as you put it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

ewww....I thought that its only in public swimming pool which are inside buildings..now that I know that there are whole nude beach and there are plenty of them?? Astaghfirullah! That is really disgusting. Alhumdulilah for the grace of Islam which treat us like humans

Had you seriously never heard of nude beaches? I have been. It isn't what you may be imagining. It is in no way sexual or carnal ("animal"). It is actually very natural, relaxing and freeing, and even spiritual.

I have actually always wanted to see a debate between a devout muslim such as yourself and a nudist. There are so many misconceptions of both of these groups and each probably holds all misconceptions of the other. It would be really fascinating to see them try to dispell some of them.

I also like to throw the nudist's view at westerners who balk over muslims wanting burkas/hajibs. The muslim woman covering her face and hair is really just doing the same thing as the western woman covering her breasts. One is no more objectively rational than the other. It is all about culture. I have heard that there are actually some subculures in Africa where women will be very careful to cover their hair and showing it is taboo, yet leave their breasts uncovered without shame.

The culture in question sets the rules. In France, it would seem that the norm is to have the face visible. If we're going to oppose a ban on covering the face, I think it is only fair to also oppose any ban on public nudity. As one of you above said, if we're going after the one extreme, lets be consistent and go after the other as well, and if we're going to approve of the one extreme then why not the other.

 

[GuestFellow]

I loved the ending.

"Mona keeps saying I believe, I believe, I believe, well we don't make laws based on what Mona believes or what anyone believes."

^ HAHAHAHAHA....

May Allah guide Mona.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Assalaamu Alaaykum

This is messed up :-\, why people dont use their brains? :-\

By banning Niqaab,Burka, they are obviously taking away the rights of the women. Just for security reasons ? :-\

They can just ask to check/see the women in Niqaab and Burka in private by having a female security guard check her, so she can verify there is no danger, instead of fining her for completely being innocent, or not giving the individual the right to practice their faith freely or other reasonable reasons. Then the women in Niqaab can peacefully go her way and also the security people, and all will be at peace.

I know it may sound silly, but i think its silly banning something which clearly is against the will of the citizen, person. Human rights Act should be thrown in the bin unless the french dont have it in the first place, and other countries that dont follow the Human rights Act in any way.

It is indeed sad to hear this news.

may Allaah protect the sisters in France who have to deal with this Aameen

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

It hurts to see your own people against you.

Assalaamu Alaaykum

Subhaan'Allaah

She detests the Niqaab because she feels its not part of the faith etc etc.

She should be made aware that the wives of the Prophet(may the blessings of Allaah be unto them) the wives of the companions (may the blessings of Allaah be unto them) wore the Niqaab. It angers me that people speak regarding their faith in issues that they have no knowledge of..

Wallaahi it saddens me. may Allaah guide this women to the real Islaam, guide her to learn her deen, to learn that she musnt speak without knowledge, guide those who are on the same path as herself Ameen

Such peoples mindsets are soo messed up, they are soo free in this western world, they forget about their deen, they just follow the world, the dunya as if they will remain in it for ever, but it will only cause destruction. It only increases hate for one another!

Astagfirullaah

 

[Insaanah]

that mona lady seems to not understand the religion that she claims to follow.

She describes herself on her website as a liberal Muslim. She is a secularist, a reformist, a feminist, and was a board member of the now disbanded Progressive Muslim Union of North America, which endorsed the mixed gender salaat that was led by Amina Wadud as a female "imam".

Even though the niqaabi sister didn't get equal time to speak, what she was able to say, in less time and words, was strong, powerful and logical.

May Allah guide Mona, ameen.

 

[Ramadhan]

LOL That is the most blatant and ridiculous one of all. It really underscores the PR problem Islam has, or war on Islam as you put it.

This is the most blatant and ridiculous statement of all.
Following your logic, the blacks in the 50s only had PR problem when they were not allowed to sit in the same area of any public facilities because the whites thought they were disgusting.

Just because some people cannot use the little brains they have does not mean the rest has a problem.

 

[Danah]

Had you seriously never heard of nude beaches? I have been.

No I was totally clueless of such disgusting thing....Thanks God that I was not!
Knowing everything is not a pleasant thing sometimes ^o)

It isn't what you may be imagining. It is in no way sexual or carnal ("animal"). It is actually very natural, relaxing and freeing, and even spiritual.

Seriously? that is funny knowing that everyone will mind there own business+o(.....even if what you are saying is true, its still degrading the level of humanity by throwing out the shyness and modesty of the human being in the beach water!

The culture in question sets the rules. In France, it would seem that the norm is to have the face visible. If we're going to oppose a ban on covering the face, I think it is only fair to also oppose any ban on public nudity. As one of you above said, if we're going after the one extreme, lets be consistent and go after the other as well, and if we're going to approve of the one extreme then why not the other.

We don't see modesty as a cultural thing, its one of the main teachings of Islam so its a part of our faith not culture...oh and that's not only in Islam but also in all Abrahamic religions. Modesty is an instinct that every human being born with, but due to being influenced by some sick society norms many people gave up their modesty.

 

[Maryan0]

Agreed.

I can understand a ban on full face coverings, for security reasons. But I can not get behind any kind of ban on face veils directed specifically at muslims. And I can't get behind a ban on covering one's hair. You should be able to wear a muslim face veil anywhere I can wear a ski mask. And you should be allowed to wear a hair covering anywhere I can wear a baseball cap.

How do you equate the niqab with the ski mask and the hijab with a baseball cap? Is there something I'm missing. Is there a religion or a belief system that tells its followers to wear a ski mask or baseball cap?
Salam

 

[Pygoscelis]

How do you equate the niqab with the ski mask and the hijab with a baseball cap? Is there something I'm missing. Is there a religion or a belief system that tells its followers to wear a ski mask or baseball cap?
Salam

The point is exactly that. We should be treated equally and religion should not be given special rights or special bans. I see no reason to oppose your covering your hair. I do not care why you choose to cover your hair and that you do it because of your religion is none of my business. I should not stop you from doing so JUST because it is part of your religion. I should have to have a good valid reason to oppose it, that has nothing to do with religion, such as opposing the face veil for security reasons. And by the same token, you should not be allowed to do something others can not do JUST because your religion says you should. I very much oppose the Ontario decision that allowed Sikhs to carry around their Kirpan (ceremonial dagger) in sensitive public places, where I would not be allowed to carry my own knife.

As I said, wherever you can cover your face, so can I. And wherever you can cover your hair, so can I. Hence the ski mask and baseball cap comparisons.

 

[Maryan0]

The point is exactly that. We should be treated equally and religion should not be given special rights or special bans. I should not oppose your covering your hair. I do not care why you choose to cover your hair. That is none of my business, and if you want to do it for religious reasons, I should have no right to stop you. And by the same token, you should not be allowed to do something others can not do JUST because your religion says you should.

Religions are not given special rights but certain allowances are made for religious people. As a child I was allowed to play on the monkey bars even though I wore a headscarf once in a while. Other children who were not Muslim were not allowed to wear scarfs because it could be a safety hazard. I was allowed to do this because it was a part of my religion. Sikhs can carry the kirpan in Canada does that make it okay for others to walk around with daggers? What purpose does walking around with a ski mask serve and why should allowances be made for that. I still don't understand how the niqab in the ski mask can be equated.
Salam

 

[Ali Mujahidin]

I read somewhere that there are some primitive tribes who take part in an annual ritual wearing baseball caps. They would sit in a semi-circle around a shrine. The shrine glows and displays images of their gods. They would watch with rapt attention the moving images of their gods. Now and then they would chant with religious fervor in praise of their gods.

Most likely, I read wrongly because my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be.

 

[Maryan0]

] I very much oppose the Ontario decision that allowed Sikhs to carry around their Kirpan (ceremonial dagger) in sensitive public places, where I would not be allowed to carry my own knife.

Did not see that you added this. Sikhs's are allowed to carry the Kirpan because it's a religious requirement for them whereas you carrying your knife isnt which is why the Supreme Court made an allowance in this case. I'm still not getting the comparison. There is no religious obligation for a non-sikh to carry a knife.
Salam

.

I read somewhere that there are some primitive tribes who take part in an annual ritual wearing baseball caps. They would sit in a semi-circle around a shrine. The shrine glows and displays images of their gods. They would watch with rapt attention the moving images of their gods. Now and then they would chant with religious fervor in praise of their gods.

Most likely, I read wrongly because my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be.

lol :hmm:
Salam

 

[GuestFellow]

Sikhs to carry around their Kirpan (ceremonial dagger) in sensitive public places, where I would not be allowed to carry my own knife.

For Sikhs it is part of their religion to carry a Kirpan. You are not a Sikh, so why would you carry a dagger in the first pace? I highly doubt carrying a dagger is part of your culture.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

For Sikhs it is part of their religion to carry a Kirpan. You are not a Sikh, so why would you carry a dagger in the first pace? I highly doubt carrying a dagger is part of your culture.

What do you expect? He's a secularist, they have a habit of foaming at the mouth when they see public expressions of faith.

His rationalisations are little more than a polite way of saying this

 

[Pygoscelis]

Religions are not given special rights but certain allowances are made for religious people.

Semantics.

If you are allowed to do something (cover your face, carry a weapon, overfish, whatever) that I am not allowed to do, then you have special rights I do not have. Religion should not confer such special treatment. I don't know how to put it any plainer than that.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Sikh people usually keep a dagger in their house, not sure if they carry it around with them. But the reason so is for protection.
A sikh carrying a dagger/sword is very different to a women covering herself. I dont know why we should put these two together.

However, a women covers herself for her own protection, for the sake of modesty, obeying her creator many other reasons and a Sikh keeps a dagger/sword in their house for protection. The big difference is between a mans opinion against the command of the creator.

Ofcourse in the Uk carrying a dagger maybe a sign of danger, but the Niqaab, Burka is not. If so, like i mentioned in my previous post have a check up between the person in an appropriate manner.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Semantics.

If you are allowed to do something (cover your face, carry a weapon, overfish, whatever) that I am not allowed to do, then you have special rights I do not have. Religion should not confer such special treatment. I don't know how to put it any plainer than that.

The thing is they have a reason to do so. A fireman covers himself for the sake of going into a building and from the protection of the gas. People can carry a weopon for many reasons, have you heard of the knife crimes in the Uk? If your on a battlefield you would most probably carry some sort of weapon. Weapon can be carried in a good way and a bad way. For the sake of killing someone or for the sake of protection. Im sure you know very well why women wear the Hijaab/Niqaab etc.

Religion in this case Islaam, gives us a perfect reason to cover our face and wear the Hijaab. Covering your face as a fireman gives us a perfect reason to why they should do so. As long as you have a good reason to do what you want to do, a logical and good reason, then do so. Nobody should stop you, especially when you have a good intention and are sincere about it and wont cause harm to anyone, then that is justifiable insha'Allaah. Note: i did say 'cause harm to anyone' i mean yourself and those around you , then in this case you should not do it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Im sure you know very well why women wear the Hijaab/Niqaab etc.

Yes I do know. And I also understand that other, non muslim people may wish to cover their faces for similar reasons or for entirely different good intentioned reasons.

I do not care what the reasons are, as we do not have the time or resources or ability to know the minds and intentions of all people. As has been brought up before in this thread there is nothing stopping people from lying about their motives or dressing up as something they are not. Either covering ones face is or is not a security concern. Either we do or we do not allow it. If we disallow it we apply that rule evenly to all people with no special treatment for anybody.

If you are allowed to weark a burka, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask. If you are not allowed to cover your face, I should not be allowed to cover mine.

I stand with you against bans on hajib, not because your religion tells you to wear hajib, but because I can think of no rational reason to stop you. That will not carry over to all religiously motivated activities. What would you say to somebody who refused life saving surgery or a blood tranfusion for their child or who did genital mutilation on their daughter because their religion told them to? And what would you say to somebody who said their religion told them not to pay their taxes (but who nevertheless stayed in the society and drew its benefits)?