Free will with an all knowing God.

[Pygoscelis]

Or are you saying that if God knows that Peter is going to kill John then God should create a situation where Peter is not going to kill John as opposed to creating a situation where Peter will kill John? If that's your position then sure God definitely shares some responsibility.

Yes that is my point. If God is both all knowing and all powerful and created Peter in such a way that he knew Peter would kill John, then God is certainly culpable. He created the events that took place knowing that they would and thus intended them to.

 

[Asiyah3]

Yes that is my point. If God is both all knowing and all powerful and created Peter in such a way that he knew Peter would kill John, then God is certainly culpable. He created the events that took place knowing that they would and thus intended them to.

Peace,
How does this remove Peter's free will?

Edit: SubhaanAllah, this verse suddenly sprang to my mind.

55. "And follow the Best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you of a sudden, while ye perceive not!--

56. "Lest the soul should (then) say: Ah! woe is me!― In that I neglected (my Duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'―

57. "Or (lest) it should say: `If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'―

58. "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the Penalty: `If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'

59. "(The reply will be) `Nay but there came to thee My signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith!' "

Surah Az-zumar (Yusuf Ali translation)

 

[M.I.A.]

i am not able to post in the advice section as i do not have enough posts.

im guessing there is good reason for this.

 

[Lynx]

Yes that is my point. If God is both all knowing and all powerful and created Peter in such a way that he knew Peter would kill John, then God is certainly culpable. He created the events that took place knowing that they would and thus intended them to.

Okay, got it. Yeah that does I think pose a problem for that type of God. The only way I think a religious person could go around it is they say that this is the best of all possible worlds so there was no other way God could have set the conditions up.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Yes that is my point. If God is both all knowing and all powerful and created Peter in such a way that he knew Peter would kill John, then God is certainly culpable. He created the events that took place knowing that they would and thus intended them to.

Islamic God permits some things but He hates them. He permits Shirk to take place. You cant say He intends shirk to take place. Peter killing John is hated by God but He permits it based on the intentions of Peter. Sure, God creates all events but the creation is dependent on the intention of subjects. Peter willed to kill, God permitted it even though He hates the fact that Peter would make that choice. Hence, He allowed Peter to kill and for that He will hold him accountable on Judgment day.

Try hard next time.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Islamic God permits some things but He hates them. He permits Shirk to take place. You cant say He intends shirk to take place.

Look again. The logic I presented above does lead to exactly that. Show me where it goes wrong.

Peter killing John is hated by God but He permits it based on the intentions of Peter.

Intentions he knew would come about in Peter when he created Peter and that would not have come about had he created Peter differently.

Sure, God creates all events but the creation is dependent on the intention of subjects.

If this is so then God is either not all powerful or not all knowing. If he is all powerful then nothing is dependent on anything but him.

Try hard next time.

Indeed.

 

[S.Belle]

this article might help
http://puremotivation.your-talk.com/living-room--f4/are-we-born-to-be-free-t212.htm

 

[B_M]

Intentions he knew would come about in Peter when he created Peter and that would not have come about had he created Peter differently.

Okay.

God did not 'create' Peter. God 'created' Adam. God 'created' Eve. He did not 'create' you.. or I.. or Peter. Our parents 'created' us.

It was their sperm and egg that 'created' us. It was their raising us.. that created.. us. For your behavior is an act of free will.

God had nothing to do with the creation of Peter. Peter's motives are his alone.. given to him by free will. By the laws of nature, that God designed, he cannot create somebody differently.. if he had not created him at all! (He didn't 'create' murder, man did. He didn't 'create' bestiality, man did.)

You are an outspoken person, because your mother always told you 'Hold your tongue for no one.' So, you have always been the type to say what's on your mind. God didn't create you to speak your mind. Mommy did. So if you tell somebody the shirt they're wearing is ugly, why would God have anything to do with changing that? Instead, what you COULD have done to prevent hurt feelings, was to have not said nothing at all... and bit your tongue. See that is free will. God knows the outcome of both situations, that is what makes him 'all knowing'.

Why does God always have to be the blame for everything, when we ourselves have the power to make our own reality? You lead the horse to water, you can't make him drink it. You can teach your kids how to live life, but you can't live it for them.

God does not want Peter to kill John because he has said thou shall not kill. By Peter's act of free will, he could kill John, or could not. God's purpose for humankind was not to take one another lives. Therefore he hates the intention. But it's Peter's free will to choose.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Okay.

God did not 'create' Peter. God 'created' Adam. God 'created' Eve. He did not 'create' you.. or I.. or Peter. Our parents 'created' us.

What you say limits either God's power or his foreknowledge.

If he has perfect foreknowledge then he knows that by creating Adam and Eve in exactly the manner he did they would have the children they did and so on and it would lead to Peter, or whoever else you care to select. It may sound a bit absurd, but that is the nature of infinite power and infinite knowledge. You can't limit them and still say they are infinite.

Why does God always have to be the blame for everything,

Because he created everything with full knowledge of how it would turn out.

You can teach your kids how to live life, but you can't live it for them.

No, but we also did not have perfect creative power over them (we were limited by genes, environment, available nutrition, and a lot of other things beyond our control), nor do we have perfect knowledge of how they'd turn out when we raise them.

 

[IAmZamzam]

I've had to explain this so many times that by now I'm just copying and pasting:

I have never understood for the life of me this cliched non-sequitur about God's knowledge that something is going to happen automatically meaning or entailing that He's making it happen. Nobody has ever explained it to me to my satisfaction and I don't think anyone ever will because it just doesn't make any sense. Even if you assume what is patently false that God is not omnitemporal and therefore subject to the past-present-future division like the rest of us, the argument still doesn't make any sense. You are aware of yours and my mortality; that does not qualify you as having committed an act of murder-suicide. We all know that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow; that does not mean that we've positioned the sun in place ourselves and are constantly telekinetically moving the earth in its orbit. If a psychic predicted correctly that someone who would never be born until after she died would win a future presidential election, would that mean she's rigged it? Of course not, and why? Because foreknowledge and causation are separate things and the former does not automatically implicate the latter.

Honestly, what is so hard about this???

 

[FS123]

well said bro :thumbs_up

 

[Pygoscelis]

God's knowledge that something is going to happen automatically meaning or entailing that He's making it happen.

That is only half of it. He also is said to have had perfect omnipotent power and to have created the circumstances in which it would all happen. He set the dominoes up, knowing how they would fall, and then he tapped the first one on its way. This is what all your analogies are missing.

Honestly, what is so hard about this???

Indeed.

 

[Lynx]

@Pygoscelis

I think Yahya was just answering the problem posed against the existence of Free Will.

@Yahya

The response to your argument is that under your explanation God's knowledge is caused by us and since knowledge is a part of God, God is not uncaused.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Pygo: Come to a greater understanding of the taqlid doctrine first, and then get back to me.

Lynx: What are you even talking about? Since when is a person's knowledge part of the person?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Pygo: Come to a greater understanding of the taqlid doctrine first, and then get back to me.

There is no need to know the details of any particular dogma to address the ideas discussed above. Either God is omnipotent or he is not. Either he is all knowing or he is not. And consequences and arguments flow from those premises. No need for a seminary course.

 

[B_M]

What you say limits either God's power or his foreknowledge.

If he has perfect foreknowledge then he knows that by creating Adam and Eve in exactly the manner he did they would have the children they did and so on and it would lead to Peter, or whoever else you care to select. It may sound a bit absurd, but that is the nature of infinite power and infinite knowledge. You can't limit them and still say they are infinite.

But he doesn't control their children.

Free will by definition is.. the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Therefore God does NOT control your decisions.

He KNOWS what WE are thinking. Omniscience.

You decide to make fun of a kid. (Free will)
WE do not know what he's going to do. (Because we are not all-knowing)
However God knows what that kid is thinking. (All-knowing)
God knows that, the kid has a gun. (All-knowing)
God is not going to interfere with the kid's decision. (Free will)

He also is said to have had perfect omnipotent power and to have created the circumstances in which it would all happen.

By having omnipotent power means God has the power to, for example, rid mankind altogether like the Quran has said. [4:133]


By the way, none of us even have the ability to grasp God. If he is out of space and time, how is HIS 'knowing' the same as our 'knowing'.

 

[IAmZamzam]

It most certainly does not follow that having ultimate power over something automatically means exercising that power, let alone in a way that violates another creature's capacity to choose. You're confusing "God can" with "God does". And the omniscience part I have already refuted.

If you understood taqlid then you would have no trouble understanding any of this, certainly at least as regards God's power. It does not teach anything that is exclusive to Islamic doctrine and inapplicable to theism in general. Learn before you leap.

 

[Darth Ultor]

May Allah forgive me if I said something wrong about Him.

This statement makes it seem like you think God is like a human king watching us through well placed surveillance cameras and microphones. He is above all that and He knows that you do not mean anything against Him. If I misinterpreted you in anyway, I apologize, but I don't like when people give human attributes to God.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx: What are you even talking about? Since when is a person's knowledge part of the person?

Because it's part of the stuff that constitutes who you are. The knowledge of x is a property that belongs to you; it's something you necessarily possess if you possess it. According to your argument, God's characteristic of knowing what we will do is caused by us which means he has a characteristic that is caused (by us no less). So if God is the constituent of various characteristics (like all powerful, all knowing etc) then there's a part of him that is caused. o.o

It's a classic problem ! Don't blame me I didn't invent it

If you want your head to spin, read maimonedes' answer to this LOL.

 

[marwen]

God's characteristic of knowing what we will do is caused by us which means he has a characteristic that is caused (by us no less).

How can you consider the fact that God knows what we will do is caused by us ? How can we be the cause before we do anything ?

We should remember that a cause must be before the caused result. So saying God's knowledge is caused by us is only true if we assume that God knows what we do only after we do it , i.e He observes what we did and gets the knowledge. But that's not true, because God knows what we will do before we even exist. How can a result be caused by something not existent ? How a result can exist before it's cause ?
All I can conclude is that we can't be the cause of God's knowledge.

But how can God know, before we exist, what we will do, that's something only God can tell you how He can do it.