Free will with an all knowing God.

[Lynx]

There cannot be a state of God that is caused by us due to our "causing" His knowledge if God's knowledge is not part of God, just as my knowledge isn't me and your knowledge isn't you.

I thought that I had explained the "free will without free action" thing satisfactorily, but if I didn't then maybe this will.

I don't see anything in that thread relating to free will without free action. You realize that when people talk about free will they are referring to action right? Don't get too stuck on the word 'will'; that's just an expression. The traditional definition of free will is 'to have been able to do otherwise'.

 

[Trumble]

I don't see anything in that thread relating to free will without free action. You realize that when people talk about free will they are referring to action right? Don't get too stuck on the word 'will'; that's just an expression. The traditional definition of free will is 'to have been able to do otherwise'.

Since Hobbes, at least, the traditional way to defend 'free will' has been to redefine it!

 

[DancesWithChair]

There is no god but if there were:


From the moment you are born, god knows you will choose to turn left, then choose to turn right. He knows you will choose to walk up and then choose to walk down.


He knows you will put you're left foot in, put you're left foot out, put you're left foot in and shake it all about.


From the moment you're born god already knows what decisions you are going to make and therefore god knows whether he will save you or make you burn in hell.


You have free will but he already knows what you are going to do.


But you might ask for mercy and god is all merciful, all powerful.


God may or may not choose to be merciful.

How can god know what decision he is going to make about you're mercy, if he has not made it yet?
-

 

[جوري]

How can god know what decision he is going to make about you're mercy, if he has not made it yet?

want to ease on the booze just for coherency' sake?

all the best

 

[Lynx]

Since Hobbes, at least, the traditional way to defend 'free will' has been to redefine it!

Maybe, but I think that definition of Free will captures all of the essentials of the Free Will debate.

 

[FS123]

How can god know what decision he is going to make about you're mercy, if he has not made it yet?
-

First of all, theoretically, in modern science time is not linear.

But the most important thing is foreknowledge doesn't equal making it. Let say a psychic or a time traveler would have knowledge of the events that will take place in your future, but does that mean they have made or set those events for you? This question has been posed before.

 

[Pygoscelis]

First of all, theoretically, in modern science time is not linear.

But the most important thing is foreknowledge doesn't equal making it. Let say a psychic or a time traveler would have knowledge of the events that will take place in your future, but does that mean they have made or set those events for you? This question has been posed before.

The hypothetical time traveller did not create the events and set them in motion. It is said that God knew you would be sent to hell by your "choices", and he created you anyway. He could just as easily have only created those who wouldn't be sent to hell by their "choices". There is no way for him to escape responsibility for this, whether from your point of view you are making a "choice" or not.

PS - Why on earth is the word d-amned censored on a religious board in which hell is very much on topic?

 

[Hiroshi]

The hypothetical time traveller did not create the events and set them in motion. It is said that God knew you would be sent to hell by your "choices", and he created you anyway. He could just as easily have only created those who wouldn't be sent to hell by their "choices". There is no way for him to escape responsibility for this, whether from your point of view you are making a "choice" or not.

PS - Why on earth is the word d-amned censored on a religious board in which hell is very much on topic?

Hi Pygoscelis.

I am not a Muslim. My view is that God chooses not to know everything about our future choices. We have genuine freedom to choose our own path and are not totally controlled by divine will.

In Genesis 22:1 we read: "Some time later God tested Abraham." Then after Abraham has passed the test, God says: "Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." It would be meaningless for the Bible to speak of a "test" if God had already determined what the outcome would be. And the statement: "Now I know ..." clearly shows that God did not know the outcome before the test was made.

But the Qur'an, of course, gives a different picture.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Good point. If I'm not mistaken the bible also refers to Adam and Eve hiding from God at some point - as if he'd not automatically and at all times know where they are.

 

[FS123]

The hypothetical time traveller did not create the events and set them in motion.

Good, you see foreknowledge doesn't equal to causation.

It is said that God knew you would be sent to hell by your "choices", and he created you anyway. He could just as easily have only created those who wouldn't be sent to hell by their "choices". There is no way for him to escape responsibility for this, whether from your point of view you are making a "choice" or not.

Which events? The choices made by ourselves? God doesn't make our choices. The choices we make... emphasis [choices we make]. You are mixing something else.

 

[FS123]

Hi Pygoscelis.

I am not a Muslim. My view is that God chooses not to know everything about our future choices. We have genuine freedom to choose our own path and are not totally controlled by divine will.

In Genesis 22:1 we read: "Some time later God tested Abraham." Then after Abraham has passed the test, God says: "Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." It would be meaningless for the Bible to speak of a "test" if God had already determined what the outcome would be. And the statement: "Now I know ..." clearly shows that God did not know the outcome before the test was made.

But the Qur'an, of course, gives a different picture.

Thats why Bible is difficult to believe because it contradicts itself in a very clear fashion; for example, Read Matthew 6:8 "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

Above verse clearly says that God the Father knows what we'll choose. Either the verse is wrong or your interpretation is wrong or thats a clear contradiction.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Which events? The choices made by ourselves? God doesn't make our choices.

All events. You may believe that we make choices, but God also makes those choices. If he has infinite power then he had infinite different beings he could have brought into existence. If he has infinite foreknowledge then when choosing who to create and who not to he knew exactly what we would do once created. He is therefore making the choices to have us do these things. It is like coating yourself in blood and jumping into a pool of sharks and then being upset that the sharks bite you. Sure, the sharks may have a choice of whether or not to bite you, but you also made a choice. And in the case of God it goes even further than that, in that God created and designed us this way (you didn't create the shark).

 

[Zafran]

All events. You may believe that we make choices, but God also makes those choices. If he has infinite power then he had infinite different beings he could have brought into existence. If he has infinite foreknowledge then when choosing who to create and who not to he knew exactly what we would do once created. He is therefore making the choices to have us do these things. It is like coating yourself in blood and jumping into a pool of sharks and then being upset that the sharks bite you. Sure, the sharks may have a choice of whether or not to bite you, but you also made a choice. And in the case of God it goes even further than that, in that God created and designed us this way (you didn't create the shark).

You didnt have to coat yourself in blood and Jump into a pool full of sharks?

 

[Hiroshi]

Good point. If I'm not mistaken the bible also refers to Adam and Eve hiding from God at some point - as if he'd not automatically and at all times know where they are.

I guess you want to show me an instance where God acted as if he didn't know something, when really he did. After Adam and Eve sinned they acted like criminals, trying to hide themselves. But Adam must have realised that hiding from God was impossible because he at last answered the call. I think that God was allowing Adam the dignity of coming out of hiding of his own volition rather than dragging him out by force.

But I believe that what I said still stands. Abraham's test would not really have been a test if the outcome had been pre-determined.

 

[Hiroshi]

Thats why Bible is difficult to believe because it contradicts itself in a very clear fashion; for example, Read Matthew 6:8 "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

Above verse clearly says that God the Father knows what we'll choose. Either the verse is wrong or your interpretation is wrong or thats a clear contradiction.

1 Kings 8:39 says (Solomon addressing God): "Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men)".

Because God knows the afflictions that affect each one of us, and also because God knows our innermost feelings (what is in our hearts) he is of course aware of what we need before we ever ask him for help. But that doesn't mean that God has predestined all the choices that we will make when faced with severe tests. We always have the free will to decide what path we will take, whether wise or foolish, whether to remain faithful to God or not.

 

[FS123]

In post #68 you said: "My view is that God chooses not to know everything about our future choices."

But now you are taking about predestination: "But that doesn't mean that God has predestined all the choices"

Interesting... I think we shouldn't waste each others time. This is my last post on this issue.

 

[Hiroshi]

In post #68 you said: "My view is that God chooses not to know everything about our future choices."

But now you are taking about predestination: "But that doesn't mean that God has predestined all the choices"

Interesting... I think we shouldn't waste each others time. This is my last post on this issue.

As you wish.

I must explain that I have read articles by some Muslims who say that, because God is God, whatever he has foreknowledge of is automatically also foreordained and predestined. But perhaps you have a different view.

 

[FS123]

As you wish.

I must explain that I have read articles by some Muslims who say that, because God is God, whatever he has foreknowledge of is automatically also foreordained and predestined. But perhaps you have a different view.

In this thread nobody said that, actually, people have been arguing against it. Foreknowledge doesn't equal predestination. And in post #68, you didn't say anything about predestination.

 

[Hiroshi]

In this thread nobody said that, actually, people have been arguing against it. Foreknowledge doesn't equal predestination. And in post #68, you didn't say anything about predestination.

I didn't take the trouble to search through the whole thread. My bad.

If you are interested, this article:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/IslamAndDeterminism1.htm

has this to say:

Some understand forewriting as foreknowledge only and reconcile it with indeterminism as follows: man freely chooses right and wrong but God knows what he will choose. What is written by God is simply this foreknowledge. However, forewriting is often identified with foreordainment. Thus maktub and muqaddar are often used as synonyms. There is a good reason for it. There is no need to talk about divine writing if one wants to talk only of divine foreknowledge. For knowledge is written in order to transmit it to others or preserve it for oneself. Since much of God's foreknowledge is not communicated and there is no danger that God will forget anything the use of "writing" even in symbolic sense is difficult to understand in term of foreknowledge only. Moreover, "writing" often means decree or command, as for example when God says that fast is written (kutiba) for you (2:183); and in 9:51 (quoted earlier) kataba is clearly used in the sense of foreordainment and not in the sense of foreknowledge. Thus when it is said that something was written by God, it refers not only to God's foreknowledge but also his will.

 

[IAmZamzam]

How long is this thread going to go on with everyone refusing to get it??? There are only so many different ways you can explain to someone that knowing what will happen is not the same thing as causing it to happen yourself. And everything else is covered by the link and explanation I gave about the Islamic conception of what free will does and does not entail. (This isn't about words: if you want to call it "free will", "free action", or "free pancakes with every purchase of limeade", go right ahead. What matters is the concept.) This thread is getting pointless. If people don't want to understand, you can't make them. (How long do you suppose it will be before Trumble quotes that sentence back at me and says, "My point exactly!"?)