French Magazine to print cartoons of prophet Mohammed (PBUH)

[Scimitar]

There are ways to fight back. Without getting extreme. We have social media, we have wikipedia, we have YOUTUBE. And a lot more. Look, these propaganda platforms will seriously change the way people form opinion. It's already happening now. People trust social media more than the news. You yourselves trust what the forum members will give to you as their opinion from their expertise, than you would from some guys on the news network from CNN FOX.

So the way to fight back is use our brains. Get all those creative people into the projects that can make all the differencce. Youtube is powerful. More people will believe what is shown in the documentaries that users make than they would from watching commercial channel news bout the same subjects. Don't you see this pattern?

If we take advantage of this tool, and use it, we could just post the videos etc as responses and save ourselves, and a lot of other people the time and hassle of rebuttling every post.

It's effective, and can make a difference insha-Allah.

Scimi

 

[Pygoscelis]

I find myself in a bit of a torn position on this issue. On the one hand I don't want to encourage people to purposefully go out to offend each other, but whatever the original meaning of the cartoon or movie or whatever, it takes on a whole new meaning for me once people have decided to get violent to try to suppress it, and I find it important to NOT allow it to be suppressed. I find myself wanting to republish it, no matter what it is. I say we should NOT let people think that by getting violent they can stop us from free expression. So I go from seeing something as being in bad taste and something we should frown on and discourage, to seeing the same thing as something vitally important to display defiantly in the face of the threats of violence.

 

[glo]

And Glo, please do not pretend that your god is not being mocked every day for entertainment in UK just because christians have long ago cease to pay attention to such vile actions.

I am not pretending that my religion is not mocked every day here in the UK. Gee, it is mocked in my own house sometimes!

You are right, on the whole Christians in the UK are ignoring it.
In the context of this thread, that a very interesting point to make. Are Christians right to ignore it?
Would Christianity have a better standing in the UK, if followers demonstrated, burnt books etc?
By remaining silent, is our religion respected more? Or less?
(I'm especially interested to hear the thought from other Brits, atheists included! )

Personally, I think that God can take it on the chin. God is not lessened by the ridicule and mocking he receives. (You have to remember that Christians believe that Jesus was very much mocked and ridiculed before his death ...)

Sometimes (and this may be controversial) I even think that we do well to listen to those mockers, because in their cynical and angry comments about of faiths, there may actually be hidden some truth! God speaks to the strangest of people!

 

[glo]

It's being done all over Europe - Denmark and Sweden are the latest. They'll be coming to a news-stand near you soon!
French privacy law allowed an injunction against them in France but I don't think they'll try for an injunction in all over publishing countries.

I enjoy your clear and rational explanations, observer. A trait I find in many of my atheist friends.
You seem quite knowledgeable on law. What is your background (if I may ask that question).

 

[FS123]

Just look at how effective the western jews have been with their intimidation etc that these days no one in the west dare to speak against or deny or mock the sufferings of ashkenazis.

It was not always like that, it changed when antisemitism moved to muslims.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Mu8ZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6CIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2824,2052907&dq=jews&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Nv8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3867,1823285&dq=jews&hl=en

As brother Scim quoted from Quran that is the best thing to do. And prayers, prayers are powerful and bring people together and can move things in the right direction.

But there is also a logistical issue, there are 1.2billion muslims at least and expecting none will do anything stupid is ridiculous. Less than 0.9% muslims came out in the protests. There are around 50 muslims countries only few have seen violent protests.

Sikhs had violent protests too but it was never made as big issue as it is made against muslims. Second, sikh have smaller community still nobody expected every Sikh to behave calmly.
Sikh protests over play: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/dec/21/religion.arts

 

[Ramadhan]

I am not pretending that my religion is not mocked every day here in the UK. Gee, it is mocked in my own house sometimes!

You are right, on the whole Christians in the UK are ignoring it.
In the context of this thread, that a very interesting point to make. Are Christians right to ignore it?
Would Christianity have a better standing in the UK, if followers demonstrated, burnt books etc?
By remaining silent, is our religion respected more? Or less?
(I'm especially interested to hear the thought from other Brits, atheists included! )

Personally, I think that God can take it on the chin. God is not lessened by the ridicule and mocking he receives. (You have to remember that Christians believe that Jesus was very much mocked and ridiculed before his death ...)

Sometimes (and this may be controversial) I even think that we do well to listen to those mockers, because in their cynical and angry comments about of faiths, there may actually be hidden some truth! God speaks to the strangest of people!

If Christians are okay and not insulted with their God being mocked for entertainment, I can respect that.

But you also should know that followers of different religion may not like it, so you need to also respect the fight back as long as it is done in just way, do you not agree?

By the way, I do not understand your point about God's reaction to being mocked. You and I both know that it means absolutely nothing to God (swt).

 

[Pygoscelis]

But you also should know that followers of different religion may not like it, so you need to also respect the fight back as long as it is done in just way, do you not agree?

Besides shaking your head and roll your eyes at them, reach out to westerners who are not them, mock them and marginalize them as much as possible, I don't really see what else you can do in response to them that wouldn't do more harm than good. Letters to the editor, peaceful multi-faith gatherings, perhaps a mass invitation to the local non-muslim communities to visit mosques (in a non-preachy way), maybe some response videos (especially those featuring non-muslims and showing how unfairly muslims are treated, etc) I can see making a difference. But boycotts of a nation's products (which includes far more innocent people from that nation than the handful that attacked Islam), screams against "the west", and goodness forbid, violence, will only be counter productive eh?

 

[marwen]

Personally, when I see some people again and again, using filthy means to reach their goals, I really doubt how much are they confident they are right and the others (muslims for ex) are wrong, if so why don't they try to convince others peacefully / with arguments and respectful discussion ?
I really don't think I wanna talk with these type of persons. I'd rather talk with other non-muslims who are not part of this offense.

 

[dusk]

But there is also a logistical issue, there are 1.2billion muslims at least and expecting none will do anything stupid is ridiculous. Less than 0.9% muslims came out in the protests. There are around 50 muslims countries only few have seen violent protests.

Definitely but the protests were promoted by i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood that Mursi belongs too. Violence was almost definitely to follow to a degree and in many states these new governments have been either negligent or incapable of putting the necessary crowd control measures in place. Especially on critical obvious targets like embassies.
When hooligans meet in Germany or Britain they do put the police in the streets were needed. Most governments in the past and present did so. Now there have been islamist parties voted into power and it all looked to the west as if they simply let this deliberately happen.
That is the criticism of western politics. Local groups spurred the riots and the some of the local governments did not act responsibly but rather how the critics of islamist parties predicted.

The fight for freedom of speech is not only direct against Muslims. The often quote thing with the Pope in a German newspaper was a big debate. The only reason the Christians won it was because the country is still ruled by Christian democrats. The majority seemed to be against the ban, found it ridiculous or didn't care.

 

[جوري]

Definitely but the protests were promoted by i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood that Mursi belongs too

lol.. guilt by proxy? I notice not one or two but three very heavily charged suggestions in one!
firstly when Mursi took office he said he was president to all Egyptians. Even if protests were promoted and there's no law against that even in the 'civilized west' then it doesn't mean that the intention for it is violence, and if it turns violent it doesn't mean that the whole condone or want that. Give it up.. once a crowd is moved there's no stopping it. What happened in the Rodney King riot or similar? Or are you suggesting the govt. uses force against its own people to appease western sensibilities

 

[glo]

If Christians are okay and not insulted with their God being mocked for entertainment, I can respect that.

But you also should know that followers of different religion may not like it, so you need to also respect the fight back as long as it is done in just way, do you not agree?

By the way, I do not understand your point about God's reaction to being mocked. You and I both know that it means absolutely nothing to God (swt).

My point was that ignoring (and not protesting) may actually be the most effective way of dealing with such troublemakers. If they have no attention and no media platform they will soon lose interest (indeed nobody would even know about them).

By protesting (especially in violent and angry ways), Muslims draw attention to the very thing they are offended by! And more and more people hear about it ...
So protesting adds to the spreading of this hateful information. :hmm:

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

My sincere apologies if my words have upset you. I understand how sensitive Muslim are feeling about this. And I feel deeply saddened that my Muslim friends are hurting.
But I still don't think that fighting back is the answer.

Salaam

 

[dusk]

But you also should know that followers of different religion may not like it, so you need to also respect the fight back as long as it is done in just way, do you not agree?

I agree.
Yet I would like the just way not to be defined as just by the offended but by objective agreed upon laws and peaceful culture.

In the general sense though I think it is more healthy in a multicultural society to learn how to ignore or laugh about some things. Anything else will eventually drive you crazy or grim or just not fit for a pluralistic society. Not everything is a personal offense or directed at you and shouldn't be taken as seriously. Some things are but if the Jews start a hunger strike until the last neo-nazi dies they will starve.

As Stephen Hughes:
O:I want to live in a democracy but I don't ever want to be offended.
S:Well, you are an i****.

Personally, when I see some people again and again, using filthy means to reach their goals, I really doubt how much are they confident they are right and the others (muslims for ex) are wrong, if so why don't they try to convince others peacefully / with arguments and respectful discussion ?

Do you think an evangelical west boro baptist Christian wants to argue with a homosexual. There is no point in debating fools.

 

[KAding]

They're doing it for sales pure and simple. Strike while the iron is hot.

I am sure this is partially true. But there is much more at play here as this also very much about ideology and beliefs. For many it is a matter of principle that they should be able to criticize/insult a religion. Just like it is a matter of principle to many Muslims that the Prophet may not be criticized/insulted.

Yes, there are many who use this situation for their own political or financial gain, there is a real ideological battle being fought here as well by parties on both sides. It is a real issue.

 

[Pygoscelis]

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

 

[Ramadhan]

My point was that ignoring (and not protesting) may actually be the most effective way of dealing with such troublemakers. If they have no attention and no media platform they will soon lose interest (indeed nobody would even know about them).

You and I both know that this is not true.
I already gave my evidence on society mocking Jesus (p) for entertainment, and in contrast, society reluctance to mock the jews.

 

[Ramadhan]

I agree.
Some things are but if the Jews start a hunger strike until the last neo-nazi dies they will starve.
.

Fortunately the jews do not have to starve themselves as even even the slightest jibe against them can be persecuted under hate-laws or anti-defamation or whatever you call it. Contrast that to people who burn qur'an, spread hate and lies about Islam and muslims, and they are given federal protection and labeled "freedom of speech"

 

[Logikon]

The point every body has missed is the magazine cover.

It shows Muhammad and a Jew.

The cover is protesting that neither can be insulted!

Muslims should be pleased about this protest!

.

 

[FS123]

Definitely but the protests were promoted by i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood that Mursi belongs too. Violence was almost definitely to follow to a degree and in many states these new governments have been either negligent or incapable of putting the necessary crowd control measures in place. Especially on critical obvious targets like embassies.
When hooligans meet in Germany or Britain they do put the police in the streets were needed. Most governments in the past and present did so. Now there have been islamist parties voted into power and it all looked to the west as if they simply let this deliberately happen.
That is the criticism of western politics. Local groups spurred the riots and the some of the local governments did not act responsibly but rather how the critics of islamist parties predicted.

Morsi spoke out against the violence and police did try to stop the rioting http://inagist.com/all/246605382947061760/ Photos are there. Egypt is large population and protesters around 3000 is very small.

 

[Ramadhan]

Morsi spoke out against the violence and police did try to stop the rioting http://inagist.com/all/246605382947061760/ Photos are there. Egypt is large population and protesters around 3000 is very small.

I don't think non-muslims who live in the west are interested in evidence or in anything that contradict their views formed by their government and the media.

 

[Abdul Rafay]

I don't know why they love provoking us. Some sort of envy perhaps?