Phoenix CG
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Fresh Attacks on Niqab in UK Government
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:salamext:
Interestingly, if you look at the poll results (half-way down) on the telegraph website, it shows 86% voting against the ban:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...aring-veils-in-schools-and-public-places.html
Related to this news is the recent decision to ban the Niqab at Birmingham Met College which was subsequently reversed:
See also: http://www.islam21c.com/politics/12...t-college--bigotry-or-genuine-security-threat
Interestingly, if you look at the poll results (half-way down) on the telegraph website, it shows 86% voting against the ban:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...aring-veils-in-schools-and-public-places.html
Related to this news is the recent decision to ban the Niqab at Birmingham Met College which was subsequently reversed:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/13/birmingham-college-uturn-veil-ban
See also: http://www.islam21c.com/politics/12...t-college--bigotry-or-genuine-security-threat
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Salaam
There is much hysteria in the British media at the moment about this issue. Just check out these headlines.
Teachers ‘forced to wear the veil’
Female teachers at state funded Muslim school ordered to cover heads with Islamic scarves during school hours, it is claimed.
Ministers mustn’t duck the debate on the veil
Telegraph View: Politicians must stop leaving it to school uniform codes, or judges, or hospital health and safety standards, to prevent the niqab being worn inappropriately
Burkas cast a veil over us all – so ban them
Cultural values that oppress and diminish women have no place in our society, argues Allison Pearson
Muslim woman must remove niqab while giving evidence, judge rules
A judge has ordered a Muslim woman who insisted on wearing a face veil in court to remove it while giving evidence.
Should veils be lifted in schools?
Students at Birmingham Metropolitan College, which has revoked an eight-year ban on niqabs and burkas, are divided
Nick Clegg could support ban on veils in classrooms
Nick Clegg has suggested that he could back a ban on full-face Muslim veils in the classroom, but distanced himself from calls for them to be outlawed in all public places
Veil debate should be 'wake-up call for feminism'
Politicians need to set clear national guidance on where women should be allowed to wear veils, says Sarah Wollaston MP.
'Ban Muslims from wearing veils in schools and public places'
Britain should consider banning Muslim girls and young women from wearing veils in schools and public places, a Home Office minister has said.
Is it a human right to wear a veil in court?
A senior judge will come under pressure on Monday not to set a “dangerous” legal precedent by allowing a Muslim defendant to wear a full veil in a criminal trial.
Civilised society must not draw a veil over the niqab
We should not tolerate the niqab in our public institutions, since it demeans both women and men
David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at his children's school
David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at a school attended by one of his children, Downing Street has said, as a prominent bishop called for religious face coverings to be outlawed in the classroom.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/
Must be a slow news day, but I guess its good red meat for the usual assortment, ranging from secular liberals to Daily Mail readers.
There is much hysteria in the British media at the moment about this issue. Just check out these headlines.
Teachers ‘forced to wear the veil’
Female teachers at state funded Muslim school ordered to cover heads with Islamic scarves during school hours, it is claimed.
Ministers mustn’t duck the debate on the veil
Telegraph View: Politicians must stop leaving it to school uniform codes, or judges, or hospital health and safety standards, to prevent the niqab being worn inappropriately
Burkas cast a veil over us all – so ban them
Cultural values that oppress and diminish women have no place in our society, argues Allison Pearson
Muslim woman must remove niqab while giving evidence, judge rules
A judge has ordered a Muslim woman who insisted on wearing a face veil in court to remove it while giving evidence.
Should veils be lifted in schools?
Students at Birmingham Metropolitan College, which has revoked an eight-year ban on niqabs and burkas, are divided
Nick Clegg could support ban on veils in classrooms
Nick Clegg has suggested that he could back a ban on full-face Muslim veils in the classroom, but distanced himself from calls for them to be outlawed in all public places
Veil debate should be 'wake-up call for feminism'
Politicians need to set clear national guidance on where women should be allowed to wear veils, says Sarah Wollaston MP.
'Ban Muslims from wearing veils in schools and public places'
Britain should consider banning Muslim girls and young women from wearing veils in schools and public places, a Home Office minister has said.
Is it a human right to wear a veil in court?
A senior judge will come under pressure on Monday not to set a “dangerous” legal precedent by allowing a Muslim defendant to wear a full veil in a criminal trial.
Civilised society must not draw a veil over the niqab
We should not tolerate the niqab in our public institutions, since it demeans both women and men
David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at his children's school
David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at a school attended by one of his children, Downing Street has said, as a prominent bishop called for religious face coverings to be outlawed in the classroom.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/
Must be a slow news day, but I guess its good red meat for the usual assortment, ranging from secular liberals to Daily Mail readers.
Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda
It's an interesting one, and I don't personally see that it's the government's job to dictate dress codes in your private life.
In examples such as the woman who wanted to be covered in court - I agree that she shouldn't be allowed to.
It is, though, necessary to accept that there are large numbers of muslim women who are coerced into wearing the niqab. I have had many, many female muslim students who have said that they would rather not cover themselves, especially when studying in the UK, but that the attitude of male, muslim students in the school (not usually their fathers interestingly) meant that they had to cover. That's pretty sad. Especially when those same male students are happy to walk around in their shorts and t-shirts with their Ray-ban sunglasses.
A woman's right to choose to wear niqab should be as strong as her right to choose not to.
As an aside, those muslims who denounce women who dress in a "western" (for want of a better word) style as *****s or of loose morals need to recognise that their demands that those women should be covered are every bit as unfair as the demand that muslim women shouldn't cover. Choice works both ways.
It's an interesting one, and I don't personally see that it's the government's job to dictate dress codes in your private life.
In examples such as the woman who wanted to be covered in court - I agree that she shouldn't be allowed to.
It is, though, necessary to accept that there are large numbers of muslim women who are coerced into wearing the niqab. I have had many, many female muslim students who have said that they would rather not cover themselves, especially when studying in the UK, but that the attitude of male, muslim students in the school (not usually their fathers interestingly) meant that they had to cover. That's pretty sad. Especially when those same male students are happy to walk around in their shorts and t-shirts with their Ray-ban sunglasses.
A woman's right to choose to wear niqab should be as strong as her right to choose not to.
As an aside, those muslims who denounce women who dress in a "western" (for want of a better word) style as *****s or of loose morals need to recognise that their demands that those women should be covered are every bit as unfair as the demand that muslim women shouldn't cover. Choice works both ways.
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Greetings observer,
The following are a few relevant snippets from articles on this point:
[Misconception #] 7. Banning the niqab will free those Muslim women who are coerced into wearing it.
Banning the face-veil would be totally counter-productive: it would cause many Muslim women to feel targeted and persecuted and is likely to cause many talented women to withdraw from society. The majority of niqab-wearing women in Europe, wear it out of personal choice, so if, for the sake of a suspected minority, the niqab was to be banned, this would be clear discrimination against the majority. If we want to empower women from any community who are oppressed or abused, effective public services where such abuse can be reported need to be made more available and accessible to the women involved.
Fatima Barkatulla, The Niqab, Fact V Fiction, Article originally published in the Times Online..
2. The idea that banning the niqab is required for women’s liberation is patronising to those who choose to wear it. The idea that all such women are forced to wear the niqab is delusional. Many community leaders will know of examples of Muslim women who are ostracised by their families for taking up the dress. In fact far more than the few who may be forced. When the facts disagree with ones ideological bigotry, it is often tempting to ignore the facts and create fiction, cue the Tory party.
Adam Beloan, 10 Reasons Why The Niqab Does Have a Place in Modern Britain
...What is frustrating to many Muslims is that over and over again Muslim women have spoken out claiming that what they wear is out of their own choice and a deep sense of spirituality. Yet the media and prominent figures in the West continue to ignore these voices and imply that only ‘they’ truly know what is going on inside Muslim women’s head, something which even the Muslim women – subjugated as they are – are not privy to. This obscene hypocrisy highlights the continuing Orientalism that still operates in the West when it comes to its discourse on Islam.
From a Muslim perspective (although many non-Muslims agree), the tyranny of fashion shows, billboards with air-brushed pictures, the use of scantily clad bodies to sell consumer products is a form of subjugation for Western women, who, if not dominated by men are certainly dominated by the demands and dictates of the market.
How, at any rate, is one to decide whether someone is subjugated or not? Banning a religious practice in a society where no Muslim is demanding its imposition seems more a fundamentalist move than a liberal one, but then perhaps that is exactly what we are witnessing: the fundamentalising of liberalism. What’s more is that Muslim ought not to feel cowed by media pressure or hawkish tactics by commentators who merely claim that such Islamic dress codes are oppressive – the onus of proving this, after all, lies with them and not with Muslims.
For our part we have firsthand accounts of women who have donned the burqa/hijab/niqab who repeatedly pronounce their individuality and choice as well as the fact that the majority of women who seem to be adopting the burqa are Western educated women all born and brought up in countries like France and Britain many a time at odds with their mothers from the East. So, is the Burqa an Eastern or Western phenomena?!
Shaikh Haitham al-Haddad, Discussing the 'Symbol of Subjugation'.
I came across this interesting article which concludes, 'let’s not pretend that banning the veil in court will lead to better justice', after the writer researched the topic of lie detection. If such is the case, I don't see what the problem is in allowing women to remain veiled, at least for most parts of the trial.
By the same token, it is necessary to accept that large, if not larger, numbers of Muslim women wear the Niqab gladly out of their own choice. It is unusual though, that the female students you mention are being coerced into wearing Niqab (face-veil) - perhaps you meant covering themselves as in wearing the Burqa/headscarf. But it's also strange that the female students would be coerced by an attitude of male students; students are usually in no position to enforce a code of dress on any other.
The following are a few relevant snippets from articles on this point:
[Misconception #] 7. Banning the niqab will free those Muslim women who are coerced into wearing it.
Banning the face-veil would be totally counter-productive: it would cause many Muslim women to feel targeted and persecuted and is likely to cause many talented women to withdraw from society. The majority of niqab-wearing women in Europe, wear it out of personal choice, so if, for the sake of a suspected minority, the niqab was to be banned, this would be clear discrimination against the majority. If we want to empower women from any community who are oppressed or abused, effective public services where such abuse can be reported need to be made more available and accessible to the women involved.
Fatima Barkatulla, The Niqab, Fact V Fiction, Article originally published in the Times Online..
2. The idea that banning the niqab is required for women’s liberation is patronising to those who choose to wear it. The idea that all such women are forced to wear the niqab is delusional. Many community leaders will know of examples of Muslim women who are ostracised by their families for taking up the dress. In fact far more than the few who may be forced. When the facts disagree with ones ideological bigotry, it is often tempting to ignore the facts and create fiction, cue the Tory party.
Adam Beloan, 10 Reasons Why The Niqab Does Have a Place in Modern Britain
...What is frustrating to many Muslims is that over and over again Muslim women have spoken out claiming that what they wear is out of their own choice and a deep sense of spirituality. Yet the media and prominent figures in the West continue to ignore these voices and imply that only ‘they’ truly know what is going on inside Muslim women’s head, something which even the Muslim women – subjugated as they are – are not privy to. This obscene hypocrisy highlights the continuing Orientalism that still operates in the West when it comes to its discourse on Islam.
From a Muslim perspective (although many non-Muslims agree), the tyranny of fashion shows, billboards with air-brushed pictures, the use of scantily clad bodies to sell consumer products is a form of subjugation for Western women, who, if not dominated by men are certainly dominated by the demands and dictates of the market.
How, at any rate, is one to decide whether someone is subjugated or not? Banning a religious practice in a society where no Muslim is demanding its imposition seems more a fundamentalist move than a liberal one, but then perhaps that is exactly what we are witnessing: the fundamentalising of liberalism. What’s more is that Muslim ought not to feel cowed by media pressure or hawkish tactics by commentators who merely claim that such Islamic dress codes are oppressive – the onus of proving this, after all, lies with them and not with Muslims.
For our part we have firsthand accounts of women who have donned the burqa/hijab/niqab who repeatedly pronounce their individuality and choice as well as the fact that the majority of women who seem to be adopting the burqa are Western educated women all born and brought up in countries like France and Britain many a time at odds with their mothers from the East. So, is the Burqa an Eastern or Western phenomena?!
Shaikh Haitham al-Haddad, Discussing the 'Symbol of Subjugation'.
I'm just referring to the niqab here (the veil); I've had very few students who have said that they wanted to be able to remove their headscarves.
I totally agree with you that many women want to wear the niqab - but neither side should kid themselves that all women choose to wear the niqab nor that all women are forced to wear the niqab - this is why I say that choice works both ways.
Students, of course, cannot enforce a dress code. But as was explained to me, if a large group of male students from the woman's community tell them that the way they are dressing is unislamic, that they are bringing shame on themselves and the family by not wearing the niqab then many of the female students (especially those who are unmarried) will acquiesce.
The worst treatment I have ever seen was of a couple of Saudi women who choose to cover neither their face nor their hair whilst in England. They were completely ostracized by the other muslim students (some of the girls who tried to be friendly with them said that the male students had told them not to talk to these two as they would bring shame on themselves by doing so). It was pretty sad to see.
So yes, I believe choice is important, but it works both ways. A woman who chooses to wear the niqab needs to be respected as much as a woman who chooses no to.
tearose
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Greetings, Are you sure you have been correctly informed about the situation? In most Muslim communities I have been in it would be very unusual for so much conversing to go on between male and female students, and also very unusual for there to be such a split of opinion between male and female students.
Outside the classroom there wasn't much mixing, but in mixed classes where you're learning a language, you have to speak to one another, and when you have a class full of muslim students it's natural that they talk about things relating to them. Hence they learnt (hopefully!) a lot of English and I learnt a lot about them and their culture. In classes where there were only males or only females on any certain day, I learnt a lot more than when classes were mixed!
I think that most of the students had a very down-to-earth, pragmatic approach - they were studying in England, a non-muslim country, so it was inevitable that mixing was going to happen and it never seemed to cause a problem.
tearose
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The way all of these are worded implies that the male students said these things outside of the classroom and then the female students told you about it in the classroom afterwards (which in itself seems quite unlikely en masse). I'm not saying none of it happened, but I don't think we can draw any real conclusions from a few accounts of what you say some people said to you about what others said to them.
It's really quite silly, if you think about it. As a Muslim, it looks like a ridiculous debate. I mean, Muslim women are wearing Niqab because they are following this law in Islam willingly from the depths of their hearts, and the other side is saying, "No! You are actually being forced into it. You just don't know. But we know. We know what's going on with you better than you do." That sums up the debate.
Here in Canada, Quebec is trying to pass a law against it as well. They are French too. Coincidence? I think not. It might be some cultural mentality of theirs. The debate in Canada is more comprehensive though, being aimed at ALL religious symbols. Thus, Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims, etc., everyone is involved in this one. It is only limited to Public service, but they seem to think Niqab is a "religious symbol", while it is not a symbol, but the wearing of it is Wajib in Islam.
All in all, secularist ideals about this are that wearing Niqab is purely a choice, even within Islam. None of them seem to understand that this is NOT a choice in Islam. Anyone who enters into Islam understands this and knows it is part of the Islamic law. Perhaps once we Muslims clear this little misunderstanding with secularists, then they will finally change their tones. Either they are completely ignoring this, despite their knowledge of it (very likely), or they do not know about it (also likely). Anyone else see this pattern here?
Here in Canada, Quebec is trying to pass a law against it as well. They are French too. Coincidence? I think not. It might be some cultural mentality of theirs. The debate in Canada is more comprehensive though, being aimed at ALL religious symbols. Thus, Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims, etc., everyone is involved in this one. It is only limited to Public service, but they seem to think Niqab is a "religious symbol", while it is not a symbol, but the wearing of it is Wajib in Islam.
All in all, secularist ideals about this are that wearing Niqab is purely a choice, even within Islam. None of them seem to understand that this is NOT a choice in Islam. Anyone who enters into Islam understands this and knows it is part of the Islamic law. Perhaps once we Muslims clear this little misunderstanding with secularists, then they will finally change their tones. Either they are completely ignoring this, despite their knowledge of it (very likely), or they do not know about it (also likely). Anyone else see this pattern here?
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The main issue, though, is that banning the veil outright is not the solution and, in fact, may make matters much worse. It certainly will not be respecting the notion of choice working both ways.
I totally agree, which is why I said that your private choice of clothes should be your own and not for a government to decide.
ardianto
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In Indonesia, wearing niqab (face-veil) in court is allowed. Face is not the only identity. Fingerprint can be an identity too.
But there is a unique phenomenon in indonesia, "the sudden niqabi".
In last few years Indonesian govt is very active in fight corruption. many suspect of corruption have been arrested including a number of women. But there are few of those women who previously didn't wear niqab or even didn't wear hijab, suddenly wear niqab after they got arrested and appear in the court with face-veil!.
I hope it because they have repented their mistake, not just to gain sympathy.
Pygoscelis
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Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda
I, an atheist, and somewhat anti-religious person, am pretty much 100% behind the muslimas on this. It should not matter why she wants to cover her face. She should be allowed to wear whatever she wants, absent valid security concerns. The bans targeted at Niqab are unjust, unfair, and should be insulting to us all. And religion doesn't have to come into it. I should be allowed to wear a baseball cap wherever I want to as well.
A bit of irony though is that these women who wear niqab probably wouldn't support the opposite extreme in wanting to wear what they want, such as bikinis or nothing at all. I think you'll often find that the muslima and the nudist seek the same freedom (to wear what they wish) but also seek to repress it from each other.
I, an atheist, and somewhat anti-religious person, am pretty much 100% behind the muslimas on this. It should not matter why she wants to cover her face. She should be allowed to wear whatever she wants, absent valid security concerns. The bans targeted at Niqab are unjust, unfair, and should be insulting to us all. And religion doesn't have to come into it. I should be allowed to wear a baseball cap wherever I want to as well.
A bit of irony though is that these women who wear niqab probably wouldn't support the opposite extreme in wanting to wear what they want, such as bikinis or nothing at all. I think you'll often find that the muslima and the nudist seek the same freedom (to wear what they wish) but also seek to repress it from each other.
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Pygoscelis
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I don't think in the west the need to see the face in court is so much about identity. Yes, you can verify identity in other ways. I think it is more about the accused being entitled to face his accuser. I think it also has to do with the perception of a jury assessing credibility of a witness. You are less likely to trust what somebody is saying if they are wearing a mask and you can't see their face.
observer said:
This is a good point.
A muslim who pushes against burka bans but pushes for bans on bikinis is being quite hypocritical. If you support the right of a woman to wear what she wants (if anything at all) then you should be consistent in that.
ardianto
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Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda
If a man wear baseball cap, in many places people will see him as a "casual guy". If a man wear cowboy hat, in many places people will thinking that he is a country music lover. But if a woman wear niqab?. In Saudi people will not care on her, in Indonesia people will thinking that she is a very conservative Muslim. In the West?. People will see her as an extremist.
The cause why people in the West hard to accept Muslim women wearing niqab is the image of niqab that regarded as symbol of extremism. This is conclusion that I take after I read a number of comments about niqab that written by non-Muslim people in the West.
So, if Muslims in the West want niqab can be accepted by public, at first they must able to eliminate the negative image of niqab as a symbol of extremism.
You cannot equalize niqab and baseball cap because what someone wear will build the image on him/her according to common image in a place regarding to it.
If a man wear baseball cap, in many places people will see him as a "casual guy". If a man wear cowboy hat, in many places people will thinking that he is a country music lover. But if a woman wear niqab?. In Saudi people will not care on her, in Indonesia people will thinking that she is a very conservative Muslim. In the West?. People will see her as an extremist.
The cause why people in the West hard to accept Muslim women wearing niqab is the image of niqab that regarded as symbol of extremism. This is conclusion that I take after I read a number of comments about niqab that written by non-Muslim people in the West.
So, if Muslims in the West want niqab can be accepted by public, at first they must able to eliminate the negative image of niqab as a symbol of extremism.
Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda
Yeah, the West worked on making the Niqab seem like a symbol of oppression for many years. The people of the West have been brainwashed into thinking that a ban on Niqab is good. This is why negative images in media are so seriously wrong. People here who don't know a thing about Islam are feed the wrong image of it. This is why more Muslims need to speak about the true teachings of Islam.
Yeah, the West worked on making the Niqab seem like a symbol of oppression for many years. The people of the West have been brainwashed into thinking that a ban on Niqab is good. This is why negative images in media are so seriously wrong. People here who don't know a thing about Islam are feed the wrong image of it. This is why more Muslims need to speak about the true teachings of Islam.
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We haven't got to this stage yet. Let's first focus on the present hypocrisy of those who claim to allow freedom of expression whilst considering banning the Niqab. Moreover, clothing that has a religious significance tends to be regarded differently than other clothing, hence it is commonly exempt where other things might not be permitted. So the reasoning, purpose and impact of Niqab is totally different to something like a bikini, and it makes sense to regard them separately.