Friendly Atheist

[Mister Agenda]

Pearl, I couldn't reply with a quote because the forum detected a link or image, although I didn't see one. I'm trying different things. I'm down to just puttin my words, I hope you can figure out which of your questions I'm replying to! I already did all the writing and don't want to start over.

Agenda: Yes, if there is scientific evidence for it.

Agenda: I'm with you so far. All true.

Agenda: I don't know. We know a LOT more about the universe than we did 50 years ago, and I hope some day we find out, but it just might not be within our grasp to discover it. 'God did it' also does not explain how all these things came into existence, it is like saying it happened by magic. If God did do it, that answers 'who?' to a 'how?' question. We're far from the point where, scientifically, we can say if we're dealing with a 'who?' or a 'what?'.

Agenda: It was made from available materials by a craftsman or machine. Is that what you meant by 'created'? Which brings me to a question about Allah. The Christian God is supposed to have made the universe 'ex nihilio', 'out of nothing'. Is this also believed of Allah?

Agenda: I suppose we can leave life early if we like, but it's a shame if someone's life is so bad they are in a hurry to leave it. We certainly don't have a choice about being born (I'm glad I was, though!). Doing what we like has limits. We should not be allowed to be destructive to others and should be wise enough to not be destructive to ourselves. I'm certainly not saying there are no rules. But within the rules we are free to chart our own course. In fact we cannot do otherwise, even if we follow a course set out by others, that is what we have chosen to do.

Yes, I think I was misunderstanding you. You meant 'why are we here?' and I was answering 'what do we do while we're here?' My answer was about 'purpose IN life'. Assuming I am understanding you correctly now, I guess I don't find the question important. We're here, the only thing we can do is choose how to live our lives, so let's make the best of it. I realize 'why not?' in response to 'why are we here?' might not be emotionally satisfying to others, but it doesn't bother me.

Agenda: Thank you Pearl. Any confusion was my own, if I'm still confused, be patient, I'll get it eventually.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Hello Mister Agenda,
Welcome to IB.
Thanks,
Gator.

Thanks, Gator! I think I made some missteps but feel like I am back on track. The folks here have been very helpful in getting my post count up, I'll be a full member in no time!

I notice you are an atheist too, any advice to make my conversations more productive? Most of my personal experience with Muslims has been with children, or adults who are still learning English, so I haven't had these deep conversations with them before.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Pearl, I couldn't reply with a quote because the forum detected a link or image, although I didn't see one. I'm trying different things. I'm down to just puttin my words, I hope you can figure out which of your questions I'm replying to! I already did all the writing and don't want to start over.

no worries

Agenda: Yes, if there is scientific evidence for it.

I apologise im not sure what you are referring to here, evidence for what?

Agenda: I'm with you so far. All true.

Agenda: I don't know. We know a LOT more about the universe than we did 50 years ago, and I hope some day we find out, but it just might not be within our grasp to discover it. 'God did it' also does not explain how all these things came into existence, it is like saying it happened by magic. If God did do it, that answers 'who?' to a 'how?' question. We're far from the point where, scientifically, we can say if we're dealing with a 'who?' or a 'what?'.

Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.

Agenda: It was made from available materials by a craftsman or machine. Is that what you meant by 'created'? Which brings me to a question about Allah. The Christian God is supposed to have made the universe 'ex nihilio', 'out of nothing'. Is this also believed of Allah?

I meant it was 'created' in a way that everything is created. everything we have today in our life was a created. There is a creation of nature and there is creation of man.

Nothing cant be created out of nothing, so nope its not the belief of Islaam.

Agenda: I suppose we can leave life early if we like, but it's a shame if someone's life is so bad they are in a hurry to leave it. We certainly don't have a choice about being born (I'm glad I was, though!). Doing what we like has limits. We should not be allowed to be destructive to others and should be wise enough to not be destructive to ourselves. I'm certainly not saying there are no rules. But within the rules we are free to chart our own course. In fact we cannot do otherwise, even if we follow a course set out by others, that is what we have chosen to do.

So what are the reasons to the individual who is in a rush to give up their life and leave it, either it is because they havent realised the purpose of life or either they dont care or dont want to, do you think this is a wise option?

Yes, i agreed, we should not be allowed to be destructive, the cause to this not knowiing how to control ones self, if one doesnt learn how to control themself i.e how to become patient, control anger and learn to be just etc. then one is lead to destructiveness.

From where do we gain the knowledge to chart our own course? agreed, a 'course' set by others will always lead to disagreement and hatred. so there is only one choice, to follow a course that applies to every individuals rights, where we can all agree upon, giving people rights, learning to respect each other etc.

Let me give you an example of what i mean..a person builds a robot or phone or whatever..who do you think we should ask about how this this robot or phone works? if we have a problem with it, or how we are going to deal with it? where do we get the help from? we run to the one who builds it right? same way we as muslims(submitters) follow the command ofour lord, because he created us therefore he knows whats best for us, he taught us what we should stay away from because he told us it is harmful towards us, and same way he told us to do the good because it good for us.

Yes, I think I was misunderstanding you. You meant 'why are we here?' and I was answering 'what do we do while we're here?' My answer was about 'purpose IN life'. Assuming I am understanding you correctly now, I guess I don't find the question important. We're here, the only thing we can do is choose how to live our lives, so let's make the best of it. I realize 'why not?' in response to 'why are we here?' might not be emotionally satisfying to others, but it doesn't bother me.

You confused me a little here

Agenda: Thank you Pearl. Any confusion was my own, if I'm still confused, be patient, I'll get it eventually.

no worries. your welcome.

just hight light the text you want to reply to and you should see the word 'quote' pop up..if that doesnt work, either it is because you are yet a limited member, to become a full member 50 posts are required of you.

.. peace ..

 

[Mister Agenda]

I'm sure it will get easier once I'm a full member, I think I'll postpone replying to this one until then, Pearl. Except to say that when I said 'Yes, when there is scientific evidence for it', I was responding to your observation that I do believe in some things that are invisible.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Only 7 more posts until I'm a full member! Good night, all!

 

[Ramadhan]

For an atheist in this forum, one of the best way of nudging up your post count without getting yourself into much argumentative debates before becoming full member is through active participation in the puzzle and humour section.
And you don't hear this from me.
:X

 

[Gator]

Thanks, Gator! I think I made some missteps but feel like I am back on track. The folks here have been very helpful in getting my post count up, I'll be a full member in no time!

I notice you are an atheist too, any advice to make my conversations more productive?

Just enjoy. You'll probably be covering a lot of well trodden ground, but its definitley interesting to do it.

You'll get to know the different people on the forum about who are interesting to have a debate with. Also peruse some of the older posts (mostly to see how people debate).

And, just a note, as an atheist on this board, you are not a full member until Vale insults you and calls you a name.

Good luck!

 

[Flame of Hope]

Only 7 more posts until I'm a full member! Good night, all!

Welcome to the forum our brother in humanity, Mister Agenda!

I'm very pleased to make your acquaintance and I love the title of your thread.... Friendly Atheist! That was a real eye-catcher. :statisfie

I come from a family of atheists as well. And they are intellectuals like you too. :shade:
Though not as friendly. :exhausted

So I've been in the same boat as you and know what's like being an atheist. I actually used to argue with my school mates about the non-existence of God and even threatened to jump from a building to prove it. lol. Me can be very determined and hot-headed sometimes. Ha ha ha!

Anyway, I hope you will benefit much from your stay here. There are many wonderful and lovely members in this forum who would love to help you in any way they can.

So a big, warm welcome, respected brother in humanity. I really hope you enjoy your stay here.

P.S. Don't forget to have fun while you're here..... there's plenty of laughs in the Puzzles and Humor section.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks for the tips, my friends, I didn't even know I could post there...not that I heard it here.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Pearl, I hope you don't mind if I pick out one bit of your post to respond to:

Pearl: Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.

There are lots of books that say lots of different things, many of which contradict each other. I tend not to trust them on supernatural matters. I believe there probably was a Trojan War, but I don't believe the parts of the Iliad about the Greek gods meddling in it. I believe there probably was an inspirational rabbi named Yeshua who is remembered to this day, but I think much of what is recorded of him is legend and myth based on a real person.

I'm interested in the other proof you mention, please don't be disappointed if I don't find it convincing, if our minds worked the same way, we would already be in agreement!

 

[Flame of Hope]

Thanks for the tips, my friends, I didn't even know I could post there...not that I heard it here.

Of course you can post there! There's a place called IB Town, the best place on the internet... I HOPE you will join. Hehe he! ;D

http://www.islamicboard.com/puzzles-humour/134307340-best-place-internet-ib-town.html

 

[Mister Agenda]

The Muslim children I know love tricks and puzzles, maybe I'll suggest this site to the older ones (some of them might already be here).

I've got my post count up, but I may have some of them taken away: I told Unitarian jokes, which we Unitarian Universalists love, but Muslim Woman pointed out there's a rule against it. My bad.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Since I'm a full member now, provided my joke posts don't get taken away, I will try to address this now. I may have to start only responding to selected questions if the posts start getting too long.

Greetings of peace

no worries

Thanks!

I apologise im not sure what you are referring to here, evidence for what?

Evidence for invisible things.

Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.[/paste]

I made a separate post about this.

I meant it was 'created' in a way that everything is created. everything we have today in our life was a created. There is a creation of nature and there is creation of man. Nothing cant be created out of nothing, so nope its not the belief of Islaam.

That sounds more sensible than the 'ex nihilo' business. Thanks for explaining that!

So what are the reasons to the individual who is in a rush to give up their life and leave it, either it is because they havent realised the purpose of life or either they dont care or dont want to, do you think this is a wise option?

I think we're in agreement on this. Except in very few situations, to choose to leave life early is not wise. If it is the only way to protect another, maybe it would be noble. If one was suffering terribly and dying slowly, it would be understandable.

Yes, i agreed, we should not be allowed to be destructive, the cause to this not knowiing how to control ones self, if one doesnt learn how to control themself i.e how to become patient, control anger and learn to be just etc. then one is lead to destructiveness.

Very true.

From where do we gain the knowledge to chart our own course? agreed, a 'course' set by others will always lead to disagreement and hatred. so there is only one choice, to follow a course that applies to every individuals rights, where we can all agree upon, giving people rights, learning to respect each other etc.

I have the same thoughts.

Let me give you an example of what i mean..a person builds a robot or phone or whatever..who do you think we should ask about how this this robot or phone works? if we have a problem with it, or how we are going to deal with it? where do we get the help from? we run to the one who builds it right? same way we as muslims(submitters) follow the command ofour lord, because he created us therefore he knows whats best for us, he taught us what we should stay away from because he told us it is harmful towards us, and same way he told us to do the good because it good for us.

There is more than one way to arrive at good behavior. I respect the Muslim way, it just isn't my way.

You confused me a little here

I wasn't at my most clear, was I? I need to make sure I really understand what you are asking about purpose, it is complicated stuff. When you ask 'what is our purpose?' do you mean 'why are we here?'

no worries. your welcome.

just hight light the text you want to reply to and you should see the word 'quote' pop up..if that doesnt work, either it is because you are yet a limited member, to become a full member 50 posts are required of you.

.. peace ..

And peace to you.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Yay, I can edit and everything. Thanks all, for your patience in a very long introduction thread!

 

[Mister Agenda]

I am thinking of adding an avatar. Are there special rules? I usually use a bit of artwork of a man wearing a wolf skin; but it occurs to me that either or both the bare chest and the fact that it's a drawing may be issues.

Any general suggestions? I'm sure a landscape would be fine, but maybe a little boring and doesn't say anthing about me. What about a cartoon character or photo of an animal?

 

[Who Am I?]

I thought about using a picture of my dogs as an avatar, but I figured that would not be appropriate. So I just use one of the generic avatars here.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greeting of peace

Pearl, I hope you don't mind if I pick out one bit of your post to respond to:

I dont mind at all..

There are lots of books that say lots of different things, many of which contradict each other. I tend not to trust them on supernatural matters. I believe there probably was a Trojan War, but I don't believe the parts of the Iliad about the Greek gods meddling in it. I believe there probably was an inspirational rabbi named Yeshua who is remembered to this day, but I think much of what is recorded of him is legend and myth based on a real person.

How many books actually base their things on facts or evidence? I they did would you still ignore it?

I believe the term 'Yeshua' is used for Jesus (pbuh)? sorry if im incorrect

I'm interested in the other proof you mention, please don't be disappointed if I don't find it convincing, if our minds worked the same way, we would already be in agreement!

I am not dissapointed, and agree.

Thanks!

your welcome

Evidence for invisible things.

Okay as far as I am aware from the Qur'aanic verse is mentioned

"And with Him are the keys of the Ghaib (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in (or on) the earth and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but he knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record."[Al Qur;aan 6:59]

I will mention a few things mentioned in the Qur'aan in regards to the unseen, such as angels, jinn and much more. chapter 72 is a chapter named after the jinn.

"For each (person), there are angels in succession, before and behind him.They guard him by the Command of Allah. Verily! Allah will not change the good condition of a people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allah). But when Allah wills a people\'s punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector. "[Al Qur'aan 13:11]

Let me ask you a question (sorry if you dont like q's and if its a silly q :-\) do you believe that Afghanistan exists right? though i assume you've never been? or lets say Iraq? you've never been though you know it exists.

or another example..

you are desserted on a dessert :-\, whilst walking on your way to 'somewhere' you notice footsteps on the sand, so logically you would figure someone has been here.. an individual created the footstep

so another example is there exists a sky, day turns to night, night turns to day, or mountains,ocean, river etc etc, it means they didnt just show up themselves but they were created. ever wondered how mountains came into existence or many other things?

note: i didnt give proofs but i gave examples which lead to proofs.. if that makes sense..

I think we're in agreement on this. Except in very few situations, to choose to leave life early is not wise. If it is the only way to protect another, maybe it would be noble. If one was suffering terribly and dying slowly, it would be understandable.

There is more than one way to arrive at good behavior. I respect the Muslim way, it just isn't my way.

what would be your way?

Controlling anger in case one harms someone or themselves, to be just, to not lie , to not hurt ones feelings, to not talk about peple behind their back, think for a second talking about people behind someones back, to warn people from the wrong and to do whats good for the person..

I wasn't at my most clear, was I? I need to make sure I really understand what you are asking about purpose, it is complicated stuff. When you ask 'what is our purpose?' do you mean 'why are we here?'

Yes, what is the purpose of life, why are we here? according to you..

Is it that we live how we like in this great life and then death takes over when we dont even know the time of its coming and then its all over..

A apologise if there were parts i didnt make sense of myself and i hope i didnt offend you in any way. also again for the long post i apologise :-\

.. peace ..

 

[Getoffmyback]

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Man you're So cute . Specially with your ahhhh
I can see How a photo of a dog might not be the best choice !!! Man common don't be So cute cos atheiSt have this reputation of knowing religion more than religious people them self.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Getoffmyback, our reputation in that regard is only partially deserved. Atheists tend to have a broader knowledge of different religions than most theists (only on average, many exceptions). For instance, although it isn't saying much, I'm sure I know more about Islam than the average Christian in America, although I would think Christians who live in parts of the world with a higher percentage of Muslims would know more about Islam than I do. I may even know more about Christianity than the average American Christian. However the average Evangelical Christian, who takes their religion more seriously than most, is more informed on their own religion than the average atheist. I was raised Evangelical, but I haven't read the Bible 'religously' in a long time, I would expect a follower to know more.

Compared to Christianity, a much higher percentage of Muslims take their faith as seriously as the Christian Evangelicals do. I would be surprised to run into a Muslim who knows less about Islam than I do. Maybe if they were very, very new and hadn't studied much beforehand.

But yeah, I guess I was being a bit cute. I tend to alternate between being pedantic and being cute. Probably not attractive.