Friendship between Muslims and non-Muslims

[أبو سليمان عمر]

That this topic is even a question shows a major problem with Islam. It should be a no-brainer that people can be friends.

The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur’aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur’aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?

 

[glo]

But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?

 

[aamirsaab]

But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?

Indeed.

But, there are what I like to call no hopers where it's best to just leave them be (and not associate with them full stop) - they aren't interested in Islam and hate you for being muslim. You know, the haters.

 

[glo]

I understand, aamirsaab.

BTW, I like your signature, and it seems very fitting in this thread.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur’aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur’aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?

Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.

 

[Supreme]

Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.

I do agree that that sounds very paranoid. It's sounds like Islam is a very weak religion as it's incredibly easy to stop believing in it as soon as you meet and befriend a non-believer- and I know that's not true, is it?

 

[glo]

I fairness, there are also Christians who feel very uneasy about 'being yoked' with non-believers.
I suppose being surrounded by influences, which contradict your own religious code, must be quite difficult - especially if you have the fear that such influences will affect not only your life, but your after-life too!

Atheists don't have any concerns about the after-life, so it may come easier for them to accept people from other faiths or none ...

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...

 

[CosmicPathos]

But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?

Thats why we treat them with respect and in a humane manner within the confines of a professional relationship (dawah, colleague, class fellow etc). Does not mean we become their friends and bring them closer to our heart.

I dont think love for the rejector of Allah can enter the heart of one who loves Allah. EVen the possibility of "potential future Muslims." Allah guides whom He wills. Our "friendship" has no bearing on someone's guidance and we would be fools to think that someone was guided because someone is a good dae and gives awesome dawah. Better than the Prophet? No, right? There were still kaafirs in the time of Prophet who did not accept Islam.

 

[LauraS]

I've never rejected Allah, I just was just born into a western family so I naturally wasn't a Muslim. I've never had an enlightening moment that has told me I should convert. Growing up in a society not Islamic how am I meant to know Islam is the correct way? Like I've already said if whatever God is out there announced Himself to the world then it would be a lot easier, but it seems all the different Gods of different religions suddenly stopped taking an active interest around a couple of thousand years ago...

 

[Pygoscelis]

I fairness, there are also Christians who feel very uneasy about 'being yoked' with non-believers.
I suppose being surrounded by influences, which contradict your own religious code, must be quite difficult - especially if you have the fear that such influences will affect not only your life, but your after-life too!

Atheists don't have any concerns about the after-life, so it may come easier for them to accept people from other faiths or none ...

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...

Well sure. I also have friends who smoke and drink, but I do neither. We're still friends. I also have friends who are conservatives even though I'm very liberal. Ideology nor habit need hamper a friendship.

 

[islamirama]

I've never rejected Allah, I just was just born into a western family so I naturally wasn't a Muslim. I've never had an enlightening moment that has told me I should convert. Growing up in a society not Islamic how am I meant to know Islam is the correct way? Like I've already said if whatever God is out there announced Himself to the world then it would be a lot easier, but it seems all the different Gods of different religions suddenly stopped taking an active interest around a couple of thousand years ago...

Perhaps you should consider reading up on islam than. The thousands that started reading on Islam post 9-11 did it out of determination to find out what exactly this religion teaches. The 20,000 annual converts in US alone started reading different religious for better understanding. Your birth and up bringing was out of your hands but your choice to read up on Islam and learn about it or remain ignorant and be played by the anti-islam bigots is your choice.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This is an informative article on the Islamic concept of friendship

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/Friendship.htm

I don't know why this issue is such a problem. Muslims choose their friends carefully, sounds sensible, after all Muslims express themselves best when they are with good Muslims friends. I don't buy this 'liberal' notion that you can be friends with anybody, whether we like it or not people with diametrically and irreconcilable views rarely make good friends, theres just too much hypocrisy involved on both sides.

This doesn't mean you cant be civil and fair with people you have little in common with. After all we all have to learn to deal with people we don't like.

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...

Yeah sums it up pretty well, its tricky.

Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.

It depends on the extent of the 'ideological' differences. You oppose and shown contempt for pretty much everything Islam stands for (fair enough) yet you expect Muslims to be 'friends' with you?
Heh heh heh heh The irony is strong in this one.

I wonder if Dawkins would sink to this level.

 

[LauraS]

Perhaps you should consider reading up on islam than. The thousands that started reading on Islam post 9-11 did it out of determination to find out what exactly this religion teaches. The 20,000 annual converts in US alone started reading different religious for better understanding. Your birth and up bringing was out of your hands but your choice to read up on Islam and learn about it or remain ignorant and be played by the anti-islam bigots is your choice.

I was just reading the thread that was a message to non-Muslims and the reason why they should convert and I still am not convinced I should worship Allah. I may agree with the principles of Islam and believe that, like all religions, if followed correctly it is a religion of peace. I certainly do not listen to any "anti-Islam bigots", you can't assume that just because I won't convert. The fact is I have not been presented with any proof that Allah is real, that whole message on the other board was no proof at all just what Allah has apparently said. I won't read up on Islamic teachings and suddenly decide to live like a Muslim. For one thing I'm too usd to the way I live now and am perfectly happy with it. That's not to say I live an immoral lifestyle because I don't. I do pray and I hope there is a Gos there listening, but I'm open minded, I don't say any religion is nonsense. Equally you can't say 100% that Allah is there, has he declared himself to you? Muslims are there thinking every non-Muslim is going to Hell, well vice versa with the Christians.

 

[جوري]

Laura S..

No one can convince you to follow or not follow anything, you certainly aren't that easily manipulated of malleable (I hope) you've been bestowed with the gift of reason and that is yours to use and keep.. if you look to the path of the prophets and certainly in their life there should be a lesson for all, none of them went around asking the town's people why they should follow this religion or that.. they contemplated and asked the philosophical questions of themselves before they were answered..

I am going to leave you with the story of the prophet Abraham for in it, is great wisdom and hopefully from his story you should glean that what you think folks should bestow you with, should in fact come from within your own wisdom and reason:

all the best

Prophet Ibrahim
The father of the Prophets​

The birth of a Great Prophet
Ibrahim was born in a house of idolaters, in the kingdom of Babylon. His father Aazar was a well known idol sculptor that his people worshipped. As a young child, Ibrahim used to watch his father sculpting these idols from stones or wood. When his father was done with them, Ibrahim would use them as toys, riding on their backs, and kicking them at times. Then after a while, he would see these same statues in the temple, and people prostrating in front of them! Ibrahim asked his father: "Why do you take these toys to the temple?" His father said: "They are statues that represent our gods. We worship them, we ask favors from them, and we offer them presents." Ibrahim's mind rejected this idea, and he felt a repulsion towards the idols.

In search for the Truth
Time went by, and Ibrahim became a young man. He still could not believe that his people were worshipping the statues. He laughed whenever he saw them entering the temple, lowering their heads, silently offering the statues the best of their food, crying and asking forgiveness from them. He started feeling angry towards his people, who could not realize that these are only stones that could neither benefit nor harm them. They could not be gods, they have no power. God is Greater than what his people were worshipping, Most Powerful, Most Magnificent. One could not find Him sitting on a table in a temple!
One night, Ibrahim went up to the mountain, leaned against a rock, and looked up to the sky. He saw a shining star, and told his people: "Could this be my Lord?" But when it set he said: "I don't like those that set." The star has disappeared, it could not be God. God is always present. Then he saw the moon rising in splendor and told them: "Could this be my Lord?" But it also set. At daybreak, he saw the sun rising and said: t "Could this be my Lord, this is bigger?" But when the sun set he said: "O my people I am free from all that you join as partners with Allah! I have turned my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah." Our Lord is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and everything. He has the power to make the stars rise and set. Ibrahim then heard Allah calling him: "O Ibrahim!" Ibrahim said trembling: "Here I am O my Lord!" "Submit to Me! Be a Muslim!" Ibrahim fell on the ground, prostrating and crying, he said: "I submit to the Lord of the universe!" Ibrahim kept prostrating until night came again. He got up and went back to his home, in t peace, full of conviction that Allah has guided him to the Truth.

Ibrahim invites his father to Islam
A new life started for Ibrahim. His mission now was to call his people to the Truth. He would start with his father who was the closest person to him, and whom he loved so much. He said to him in the softest and kindest voice: "O father! Why do you worship that which doesn't hear, doesn't see, and cannot avail you in anything? O father, I have got knowledge which you have not, so follow me. I will guide you to a straight path." His father replied angrily: "Do you reject my gods, O Ibrahim? If you don't stop I will stone you. Get away from me before I punish you." Ibrahim said: "Peace be on you! I will ask forgiveness of my Lord for you."

Ibrahim confronts his people and rejects their idols
He left his father after he lost hope to convert him to the right path, and directed his efforts towards the people of the town, but they rejected his call and threatened him. By Allah, he said, I shall plot a plan to destroy their idols. He knew that a big celebration was coming soon, where everybody would leave town for a big feast on the riverbank. After making sure that nobody was left in town, Ibrahim went towards the temple armed with an ax. Statues of all shapes and sizes were sitting there adorned with decorations. Plates of food were offered to them, but the food was untouched. "Well, why don't you eat? The food is getting cold." He said to the statues, joking; then with his ax he destroyed all the statues except one, the biggest of them. He hung the ax around its neck and left.
How big was the shock when the people entered the temple! They gathered inside watching in awe their gods broken in pieces. They wondered who might have done this? Then they all remembered that the young Ibrahim was talking evil of their idols. They brought him to the temple and asked him: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods?" Ibrahim said: "No, this statue, the biggest of them has done it. Ask them if they can speak." "You know well that these idols don't speak!" They said impatiently. "Then how come you worship things that can neither speak nor see, nor even fend for themselves? Have you lost your minds?"
They kept silent for a while, for he got a point there. Their minds and their senses were telling them that the Truth is with Ibrahim, but their pride prevented them to accept it, and reject the idols they were worshipping for generations. This they thought would be total defeat. They started yelling at him and shouting: "Burn him! Burn him! Take revenge for your gods !"

The Miracle: Allah saves Ibrahim from the fire.
The decision to burn Ibrahim to death was affirmed by the priests and the king of Babylon, Nimrod. The news spread like a fire in the kingdom, and people were coming from all places to watch the execution. A huge pit was dug up and a large quantity of wood was piled up. Then the biggest fire people ever witnessed was lit. The fire flames were so high up in the sky that the birds could not fly over it for fear of being burned ! Ibrahim's hands and feet were chained, and he was put in a catapult to throw him into the fire. At that time, Angel Jibreel came to him and said: "O Ibrahim! Is there anything you wish for?" Ibrahim could have asked to be saved from the fire, to be taken away, but no, he said: "I only wish that Allah be pleased with me." The catapult was released, and Ibrahim was thrown in the heart of the fire. But Allah would not allow His Prophet to be killed, He ordered the fire: "O fire! Be coolness and safety for Ibrahim!" And the miracle happened. The fire obeyed and burned only his chains. Ibrahim came out from it as if he was coming out from a garden, peaceful, his face illuminated, and not a trace of smoke on his clothes. People watched in shock and said: "Amazing ! Ibrahim' s God has saved him from the fire!"

Ibrahim debates the Babylonian king, Nimrod
Ibrahim's notoriety grew bigger after this event and the king of Babylon felt that his throne was in danger, and that he was loosing power, because he was pretending that he was a god. He sent for Ibrahim. He wanted to debate with him and show his people that he, the king is indeed the god, and Ibrahim was a liar. He asked Ibrahim: What can your god do that I cannot?
-My Lord is He Who gives life and death." Ibrahim said
-I give life and death. I can bring a person from the street and have him executed, and I can grant my pardon to a person who was sentenced to death and save his life." The king said proudly
-Well my Lord Allah makes the sun rise from the East. Can you make it rise from the West?
The king was confounded. He was beaten at his own game, on his own territory, in front of his own people! Ibrahim left him there speechless and went back to his important mission, calling people to worship the one and only God, Allah.

Allah blesses Ibrahim with a son to become a prophet
Only a woman named Sarah and a man named Lot believed in Allah, and followed Ibrahim. He realized that nobody else would listen to him, and decided to emigrate for the cause of Allah, and to spread His Message elsewhere. Before leaving, he tried once again to convert his father to Islam, but to no avail. Ibrahim said to his father and his people: "We are free of you and of whatever you worship besides Allah. We have rejected you and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hatred forever unless you believe in Allah and Him alone."
Ibrahim, Lot and Sarah started their long travel. They crossed Babylon, went through Syria and Palestine calling people to Allah, helping the poor and doing good deeds. By that time Ibrahim married Sarah. Their hope was to have children who would spread the Message of Allah after their death. As for Lot, he emigrated to the land of Sodom and settled there.
Time went by and no children were born to Sarah. She realized she was sterile. She accepted her fate and submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim and Sarah moved to Egypt where the king gave Sarah a woman to be her servant. The woman's name was Hajar. Sarah was seeing Ibrahim' s hair getting white, and it grieved her to see his chance of having any child slipping away. She offered Hajar her servant as a wife to her husband, and prayed Allah to bless Hajar and Ibrahim with a child. And so came Ismail, a baby boy born to Hajar. How unselfish Sarah was! For her, the need to have an offspring who would carry the Message after Ibrahim was greater than her pride. Fourteen years later Allah rewarded Sarah with a son, Ishaq in spite of her old age.

Young Ismail and his mother alone in the desert of Makkah
Ibrahim woke up one day and asked Hajar to prepare herself and baby Ismail for a long travel. Ibrahim and Hajar kept walking, crossed a fertile land followed by barren mountains till they arrived at the Arabian desert. Ibrahim brought Hajar to a high hill called al-Marwa, made her and her baby sit under a tree, placed a bag of dates and some water near her, and set out homeward. Hajar ran after him and said: "Are you going to leave us in this desert where there is no one to keep us company?" She repeated this many times but he would not look back at her. She asked: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said yes. "Then He will not neglect us." She said. Ibrahim walked away until he got out of their sight, he raised his hands and prayed Allah: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley with no cultivation, by Your Sacred House, in order that they may offer prayers. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks."

Zamzam
Hajar went on nursing Ismail and drinking from the water until it was all used up. She became very thirsty and the child was crying. She left him on the al-Marwa hill and hurried to the nearest hill, as-Safa. She stood there and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She descended from as-Safa, crossed the valley running and reached al-Marwa hill. She stood and started looking but could see nobody. She kept running between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times. When she reached al-Marwa for the last time, she was exhausted, she sat next to the baby. Then she heard a voice. She stood up and said: "O whoever you might be! Have you got something to help me?' She saw an angel, Angel Jibreel, digging the earth until water flowed ! She built a little basin around it. She scooped water with her hands, drank, filled her water-skin, and nursed her baby. The place from which water flowed was Zamzam. Muslims till this day drink from the holy water of Zamzam, and during Hajj they walk between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times to commemorate this event.
Some Arabs traveling through Makkah saw birds flying around alMarwa. "They must be flying around water." They said. When they arrived at the water, they found Hajar and asked her: "Would you allow us to stay with you, and use the water from your well?" She agreed and was pleased by their company. The people sent for their families, settled there and became permanent residents. The whole valley became alive. Ismail grew up, learned Arabic, and later married a woman from amongst the Arabs.
Meanwhile, Ibrahim who had not seen his son since he was a baby, came back to Makkah to visit him. Upon arriving, he heard that Hajar had died, but Ismail was still living there. Ibrahim was yearning to see his son whom he loved and missed a lot. He saw Ismail under a tree near Zamzam, sharpening his arrows. When he saw his father, Ismail rose up, hugged him and greeted him. It was the happiest moment for both father and son. But Allah wanted to put them to test, and it was a tough test indeed. During one night, Ibrahim had a dream. He came to Ismail and said: "O my son ! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you as a sacrifice to Allah, so what do you think?" They both realized that this was an order from Allah. Ismail said without hesitation: "Do what you are commanded, you shall find me very patient insha Allah." They had both submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim laid his son prostrate, put his forehead on the ground and directed a sharp knife towards his neck. At this very moment, Allah called him: "O Ibrahim! You have fulfilled the dream! Thus do We reward the good doers !" A big sheep was sent down from heaven to be slaughtered instead of Ismail, which Ibrahim did, and they both had a big celebration that day. This event is celebrated every year by all Muslims. It is Eid al-Adha where we slaughter the sacrificial sheep.
Ibrahim and Ismail kept on calling people to worship Allah. At that time there was no place built for the worship of Allah. Ibrahim wished there could be such a place where people would be in peace, and concentrate solely for the worship of Allah. His wish was answered when Allah ordered him to build the Sacred House, the Ka'bah. Ibrahim said to Ismail: "O Ismail, Allah has given me an order, will you help me execute it?" "Yes I will." Ismail said. "Allah has ordered me to build a house here." He said, pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it. They went towards the place and started building the foundations of the Ka'bah Ismail brought the stones and Ibrahim built the walls, and when the walls became high, Ismail brought a large stone and put it in front of his father who stood over it and carried on building, while Ismail was handing him the stones. Both of them went on building and going around the Ka'bah, saying: "O our Lord accept this service from us." When they finished the building, Angel Jibreel descended from heaven and showed Ibrahim the rituals of Hajj. Then Ibrahim stepped on the stone and called on people: "O people obey your Lord." This large stone which Ibrahim stepped on is still there to this day near the Ka'bah. It is called Makam Ibrahim.
Thus ends the story of Ibrahim, the father of the prophets. From him descended all the prophets who came later, including Muhammad, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam. Ibrahim devoted all his life calling others to the True religion: Islam. Alone he stood against his people, his father, and even the mighty king of Babylon, and never flinched. Yet his method was always to gradually persuade them by bringing irrefutable proofs, that most often embarrassed those who refused to accept the Truth, but as Allah said: "Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide !"



http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm

 

[LauraS]

The Vale's Lilly, as interesting as I found that to read, I doesn't prove to me that Allah exists it's just another story from the past. Why didn't Allah speak to all the people in the village? :S I know Ibrahim called to Him but if he just said to them all, yes he's right stop worshipping idols then there would have been a lot less trouble.

I can see the similarities with the Bible once again, I find it interesting I wonder how the same religion managed to branch off in the past? People will accept these stories from the past, but if people claimed to have heard from God today, what would you think? No one would listen if someone claimed a different God of a different name had spoken to them claiming to be the true God and yet we can accept these stories from thousands of years ago when God has not revealed Himself since. If a Muslim killed or went to kill their child and said it was on the orders of Allah what would you think? Could you accept it or would you think they'd gone crazy? What would you do if you had a dream where you sacrificed your son?

 

[جوري]

The Vale's Lilly, as interesting as I found that to read, I doesn't prove to me that Allah exists it's just another story from the past. Why didn't Allah speak to all the people in the village? :S I know Ibrahim called to Him but if he just said to them all, yes he's right stop worshipping idols then there would have been a lot less trouble.

Laura S from the read you should have also gleaned that the article wasn't meant to make you believe that Allah swt exists rather that those who wish to find God can do so on their own accord and in spite of the majority.. that belief is solo journey what you do or don't do is for your own-self and not a communal effort-- I don't understand why you must hammer that point on every post only to receive the same response? .. in fact that should have been manifest early on so even if you didn't wish to bother with the rest of the story you'd have understood the gist from a couple of lines. Further, what is the point of life at all if God spoke to the people in the village? Do you find it acceptable that a teacher should hand out all the answers to the exams prior to starting the test?
and again I quote from the Quran:
هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:210] Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels? Then the case would be already judged.

you must ponder your purpose here, if you think it is a random chance, then the deeper more philosophical questions aren't for you and your life and time would be best vested with like-minded individuals who share your way of life!
[/SIZE]

I can see the similarities with the Bible once again, I find it interesting I wonder how the same religion managed to branch off in the past? People will accept these stories from the past, but if people claimed to have heard from God today, what would you think? No one would listen if someone claimed a different God of a different name had spoken to them claiming to be the true God and yet we can accept these stories from thousands of years ago when God has not revealed Himself since. If a Muslim killed or went to kill their child and said it was on the orders of Allah what would you think? Could you accept it or would you think they'd gone crazy? What would you do if you had a dream where you sacrificed your son?

Laura S, I guess it is a question of which stories are more in concert with reality, logic that is satisfactory to both the heart and mind!
Abraham had many miracles revealed unto him and the sacrifice of his son was a mere continuum of events. More importantly he didn't actually sacrifice his son, as such I don't understand where you create the story that I'd find it acceptable if any random joe would feel it ok to sacrifice their kid because 'God told him so' if the very father of monotheism was spared such a horror and secondly not everyone is Abraham, again if you read the Quran you'd find such verses as this:

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِـي الْمَوْتَى قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قَالَ بَلَى وَلَـكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِّنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَى كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِّنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ {260}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:260] And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.[/SIZE]


clearly should show you that even messengers had their doubts and their doubts allayed. He didn't simply have a dream one night and then up with his son to have his head chopped.

Everything in life, has order, context, and sequence. Try to visualize a situation in such a fashion before asking non-questions!

all the best

 

[LauraS]

I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him. He can't just expect people to know He's there when He doesn't do anything about it? It's a bit different from a teacher not giving the exam answers, the penalty is eternity in Hell...if He really wnated everyone to believe in Him then it would be a happier world if He revealed Himself because everyone would have faith and there would probably be a good deal less war. When was the last time God performed a miracle? You don't answer why nothing like that happens today only back in a time where humans were unadvanced and gullible, maybe not sacrificing a son then but would you believe anyone that claimed to be a new messenger from God?

I do think about the reason why we're all here, you criticise me, but I'm not the one saying God created us and that's the end of it. I'm the one asking the questions you think you've found your answer and that there's no need to ask anymore.

So God wasn't created by anything and just existed? How is that possible and what did He do with His time before he created the universe and there was just nothing? Heck, this goes for the Big Bang theory too, where did the dust particles just suddenly come from, nothing can just suddenly appear, including a big black space...it really starts to boggle your mind after a while lol.

 

[جوري]

I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him. He can't just expect people to know He's there when He doesn't do anything about it? It's a bit different from a teacher not giving the exam answers, the penalty is eternity in Hell...if He really wnated everyone to believe in Him then it would be a happier world if He revealed Himself because everyone would have faith and there would probably be a good deal less war. When was the last time God performed a miracle? You don't answer why nothing like that happens today only back in a time where humans were unadvanced and gullible, maybe not sacrificing a son then but would you believe anyone that claimed to be a new messenger from God?

There is a difference between your satisfaction with the response given vs. 'no real response given' in fact an answer has been given, you have no desire to accept it, and as such it makes that your problem not ours..I think you have more than ample evidence to the existence of God which you refuse to accept and refuse to offer a credible alternative as to how it all came to be-- who can honestly be faulted for that but you? failure on exams can also alter your life dramatically, your livelihood and quality of life -- if you find yourself in a situation where you are surprised with a quiz and feel it unfair that the teacher tested you without a warning, you can only blame yourself for not taking the free time to study and prepare in lieu of blaming someone else for your miserable failure, and by the same token you can't expect that answers will be handed you in advance, surely the mere fact that you are signed up for a class should clue you in as to purpose. Not much different from life..
further there is the whole concept of free will-- you can do with your life as you please, but you can't blame anyone but yourself for how you'd spent it!

I do think about the reason why we're all here, you criticise me, but I'm not the one saying God created us and that's the end of it. I'm the one asking the questions you think you've found your answer and that there's no need to ask anymore.

I am annoyed with you (just like on the other thread which for some reason I can't reply to) because you argue on a matter out of ignorance and don't like the responses given as if they need to be catered to you. The least you can do is simply read the Quran before you argue against it? How do you know if dinosaurs are mentioned or not if all you have to go by is some hearsay of an alternate man-made and man tampered with book? If you need to be taken by the hand through the entire process the least you can do is start with the basics and work your way up?

So God wasn't created by anything and just existed? How is that possible and what did He do with His time before he created the universe and there was just nothing? Heck, this goes for the Big Bang theory too, where did the dust particles just suddenly come from, nothing can just suddenly appear, including a big black space...it really starts to boggle your mind after a while lol.

You can't be a part of the creation and a creator at the same time.. you can't calculate the parameters of a circle using square mathematics.. so I wish you'd quit trying to apply laws of physics of our immediate world to the one who created it.. at the end of the day there will be a question of origin, if you believe everything has always existed then you must prove it and if you can't, then you must concede that your explanation is as much a belief as everyone else' and not particularly convincing or even mildly amusing to read for it echoes the philosophy of puerile children who have no abstract thoughts.. and that is in fact what makes arguing with most atheists a waste of time for many people.

I have started my posts all along telling you, that your search for God is a solo one, should you truly and sincerely seek you'll find, the questions on particulars will come later, there is no point to discuss how le place's law maybe applied to the alveoli of the lung when you don't believe in physics.. as by the same token there is no point to discuss the particulars of any religion when you don't believe in God!

all the best

 

[tango92]

it is illogical for god to give people a test they cant pass. the test should be fair. what we are saying is actually the first test is to Believe in God. everyone has the capacity to understand gods signs and believe, it is simply up to a person wether they choose to ignore them or not. God knows what trials we can bear and what we cant, and he knows we can believe in him without seeing him because he gave us a brain to think.

the signs of God are plenty in the universe all around us, this is what makes the test fair and equal on all people. you wouldnt wake up one day to find an extremely complex object with a highly complex mechanism working in perfect order and expect it just bashed itself into existence. this alone is proof that there is some intelligent being behind the universe. now sincerely look around you and ask yourself was everything created in vain? it seem imposible there is no purpose of creation. now you must realise there is actually no way you could know what your purpose is unless this intelligent being told you.

you have two options:
1 hope some miracle reaches you, without you bothering to look for signs of god
2. make a start looking for miracles of god

if your sincere youll pick option 2. the first place to start looking is in religion. look at all the scriptures no problem. but believe me they all (except quran) contain errors or contradictions etc. a good place to start looking at miracles of the quran are, scientific miracles, preservation of the quran and inimitability. judge the evidence first hand, dont go presuming its all made up.

this is what makes islam unique, proof of islam is waiting for you whilst all other religions require faith. for me it is not really a question of having faith because ive reflected for a long time on each point i mentioned above, extremely critically and I find it impossible to believe islam is not the truth now.

good luck its up to you now. ill give you one last peice of advice, when mathematicians look for proofs of new theorems they dont reject all proofs because one is wrong. neither do they reject a proof without fully understanding it, nor do they presume it cant be true because they dont understand it at first. there ive spoon fed you. i hope you wont read the first line and presume im just another fool.

 

[aadil77]

I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him.

Lol let me explain this laura, if you learn about the qualities of god, His vastness, His power, His might etc, If god ever revealed Himself to you, you would be sh*t scared to ever sin again, everyone would be perfect and everyone would believe in islam. This is part of the whole test having faith that god does exist, it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers just popped right in front of you. Allah has specifically balanced everything in this test, not too many signs, miracles etc occur to make it obvious that islam is the right way, but not too few to not have anything to reflect on and recieve guidence from.