from a few days ago in Egypt-- enjoy

[جوري]

it would seem they only trouble you

If you're persistently here I'd say it is more troubling to you than any of us.. Thanks for consistently allowing us into your disturbed psyche!

best,

 

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu alaikum.

.....I am rather disappointed in some aspects of my local Muslim community mainly being that while dedicated brothers and sisters are being slaughtered in Egypt and countless more on a consistent basis in Syria, our khutbas and halaqas are talking about wudu and salat, matters of the heart, time management, and environmentalism. Picnics, potlucks, dinners, and other social events are routinely organized yet it is made quite obvious and clear that any political discussion of any kind related to what is going on in the ummah is to be muted. That is not Islam. While I certainly think those topics and social events do have a place in Islam, they are certainly not to be a replacement for the larger more serious issues.

It is not just infidels who are trying to destroy Islam. It seems as if plenty of "Muslims" are hard at work at this too. Clearly there is something going on and I don't like it. Any Muslim who can't see how clearly there is a worldwide war against Islam underway is clearly clueless in my opinion. Yet the biggest elephant in the room is what nobody seems to wish to discuss. Even this discussion board has become much quieter over the past two months. I am not advocating that Muslims in America take to the streets in violent riots over what is happening to our brothers and sisters overseas. But there needs to be some very serious dialogue going on in our local Muslim communities. I don't think I am the only one who is experiencing this suspicious silence. The truth is the truth and we should be fearing what Allah (swt) is thinking, not what Fox News or Homeland Security is thinking. It really is a sad state of affairs and it is up to us to change it insha'Allah.

:wa: sister,

I agree that our respected ulema and scholars in our communities can do more in bringing focus to the calamities that our brothers and sisters are enduring around the world.
The question is: How should the rest of the muslims (that is us), actually respond to situations such as in Egypt, Syria, etc.

Earlier this year, I wrote to our local fatwa committee, asking for advice regarding our roles in these situations, and in particular, when physical jihad becomes obligatory upon muslims who are not part of these war-stricken areas. This was my reply:

Respected Brother/Sister in Islam
As Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

Haamidaw wa Musalliyaa

Your query below refers;

The rules of Jihaad apply to those areas where Jihaad is taking place according to the Shariah. Such people should refer to their local Ulama.


We make dua that Allah Ta’ala assist those Muslims in distress and who are oppressed and alleviate their plight.


And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Was Salaam



Fatwa Committee

_________________________________________________
Darul Ihsan Islamic Services Centre
Website: http://www.darulihsan.com/
Email:[email protected]

^ I think that it is important for us to realize that the numerous conflicts that are currently taking place, are not necessarily considered by senior and respected ulema as being jihad/ struggle in the path of Allah.
In fact, the ulema from these affected countries themselves, have not declared such (to my limited knowledge).
If we take this into consideration, then we start to view our current calamities from a political lens - rather than an islamic one.

In other words, while we agree that Islam itself is being targetted by the west, from many points of view - what becomes more important in this context, is OUR reaction to this onslaught.

Islam may be the strongest that it has ever been in its history, in numbers......but when it comes to our strength in imaan, our taqwa/ consciousness of Allah - we are the weakest.
Which is why our khutbahs and halaqas will continue to discuss and spend more time focussing on: salaah, wudhu, matters of the heart, etc - and rightly so.

If we consider, that before the sahaba (ra) could take to the fore-fronts of defending Islam (on the battlefields), the love for Allah (subhanawataála) and His rasul (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) was so strong in their hearts. There was love for every command of Allah - such that, as soon as a new verse/ prohibition was revealed to the messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), they were willing to make a change immediately - no second thoughts.

What is the condition of the ummah now, in comparison?

While it is indeed important to investigate and speak about the reasons for our current affairs - it is also important, if not more so, to strive in reforming our hearts.
Unfortunately, there are many muslims who wish to by-pass this stage of islaah (reformation) and purification of the heart - in preference to getting more involved in the worldly scheme of things.
^ Again, this is important - but without losing the balance, and losing focus on the real goal for our individual lives.
-> Remember, the first aspect of ibaadah that we will be accountable for on the day of qiyamaat, will be our salaah.

In shaa Allah, I hope that this is one of the reasons as to why the board is relatively quieter recently - perhaps our brothers and sister are focussing on their ibaadat and their relationship with Allah, and making efforts to be of benefit to the ummah in a more direct manner....

There is lots that we can do from our side - e.g.
- Strive with your wealth - by contributing to the numerous charities and relief-funds,
- Strive physically - if you are a brother and have the means to do so - perhaps join those groups who are going out to deliver medical supplies, food, etc to those in need,
- Make abundant duaa for those who are facing all forms of trials around the world (be sincere, place yourself in their shoes, shed some tears and beg of Allah on their behalf).

And to remember:


"...Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in their hearts....." (Quran 13:11)



:wa:

 

[faithandpeace]

The problem as I see it and a small microcosm of it on this forum is people converting to Islam and they haven't a clue of its basic tenets. I don't know how one can organize against that. When you have a defined enemy it is good and understandable .. the problem has always been of the enemy from within, the one most can't recognize.. and it is precisely why the scholar Ibn Taymiyaah stated, have one 'bullet' for your enemy and nine for the traitors within..

at any rate now we know what John Kerry was doing in Egypt..

We can't know what is in people's hearts, only Allah (swt) knows that. However, we can look at people's speech and actions. It is possible that many European American reverts embrace Islam with the intention of finding a husband from the Middle East rather than submission to Allah (swt) being the primary intention. People need to have at least basic knowledge of all aspects of Islam rather than advanced knowledge on a few aspects and no knowledge of other aspects.

At the same time our imams are lecturing us about separating culture from Islam, they are actually injecting culture straight into the community and namely American culture. I see the American culture consumer model very prevalent in the masjids I have been to. Women are welcome to come in wearing skinny jeans and short-sleeve shirts with cleavage and no hijab whatsoever and people are discouraged to advise them on proper dress to avoid "making people feel uncomfortable." Masjids should not be treated as businesses with Muslims as customers. From a consumer capitalist point of view it makes logical sense that "controversial" or politicized topics be avoided by masjid boards and leaders because if the truth hurts someone's feelings they might not come back and then you lose donors (i.e. "customers").

Non-Muslims, new Muslims, and educated Muslims alike who are involved to any degree in the Muslim community should be kept informed on a regular basis by our leaders as to the issues affecting our ummah globally and locally. There simply is no excuse. If people leave the masjid because they do not have the emotional maturity to be able to deal with suffering, death, and tragedy (i.e. when they are shown slides of horrific pictures from Syria for instance) or they are offended because they are advised that some aspects of their dress or behavior may be outside of Islam then it is their choice to leave as "there is no compulsion in religion." I'm not advocating that people have world affairs pounded into them at every moment nor am I advocating bully tactics between Muslims in terms of social pressure to improve in Islam. But we need to be guided proactively and motivated to always educate ourselves more and try harder.

More on this in response to Zaria's post insha'Allah...

 

[faithandpeace]

:wa: sister,

I agree that our respected ulema and scholars in our communities can do more in bringing focus to the calamities that our brothers and sisters are enduring around the world.
The question is: How should the rest of the muslims (that is us), actually respond to situations such as in Egypt, Syria, etc.

Earlier this year, I wrote to our local fatwa committee, asking for advice regarding our roles in these situations, and in particular, when physical jihad becomes obligatory upon muslims who are not part of these war-stricken areas. This was my reply:

Respected Brother/Sister in Islam
As Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

Haamidaw wa Musalliyaa

Your query below refers;

The rules of Jihaad apply to those areas where Jihaad is taking place according to the Shariah. Such people should refer to their local Ulama.


We make dua that Allah Ta’ala assist those Muslims in distress and who are oppressed and alleviate their plight.


And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Was Salaam



Fatwa Committee

_________________________________________________
Darul Ihsan Islamic Services Centre
Website: http://www.darulihsan.com/
Email:[email protected]

So the Fatwa committee answered your inquiry but provided no sources from Qur'an or Hadith? If what you quoted from them was the totality of their response, then the fact that no sources were cited is proof of a problem right there. I am not a scholar but I think it is fair to expect people in leadership roles (i.e. imams, leaders of halaqas, masjid committees, etc.) to be competent in being able to back up their decisions, interpretations, and recommendations from Qur'an and Sunnah.

^ I think that it is important for us to realize that the numerous conflicts that are currently taking place, are not necessarily considered by senior and respected ulema as being jihad/ struggle in the path of Allah.
In fact, the ulema from these affected countries themselves, have not declared such (to my limited knowledge).
If we take this into consideration, then we start to view our current calamities from a political lens - rather than an islamic one.

In other words, while we agree that Islam itself is being targetted by the west, from many points of view - what becomes more important in this context, is OUR reaction to this onslaught.

I agree that we must be responsible for our own actions. That may include our own lobbying to replace our ulema with more qualified ulema so that the "masses" are given the information they need to hear as opposed to the information they want to hear. Further, there is no such thing in Islam as issues being heard in a "political lens vs. an Islamic lens." There is NO separation of church and state in Islam, none whatsoever. Either something is Islam or it is not Islam, period.

Islam may be the strongest that it has ever been in its history, in numbers......but when it comes to our strength in imaan, our taqwa/ consciousness of Allah - we are the weakest.
Which is why our khutbahs and halaqas will continue to discuss and spend more time focussing on: salaah, wudhu, matters of the heart, etc - and rightly so.

I certainly feel that salat, wudu, and matters of the heart are extremely important in Islam. But they are not the only things in Islam. We can't just focus on the parts of Islam that are convenient at the time and avoid the parts that are inconvenient because they might make people feel uncomfortable or involve an element of risk.

If we consider, that before the sahaba (ra) could take to the fore-fronts of defending Islam (on the battlefields), the love for Allah (subhanawataála) and His rasul (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) was so strong in their hearts. There was love for every command of Allah - such that, as soon as a new verse/ prohibition was revealed to the messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), they were willing to make a change immediately - no second thoughts.

What is the condition of the ummah now, in comparison?

While it is indeed important to investigate and speak about the reasons for our current affairs - it is also important, if not more so, to strive in reforming our hearts.
Unfortunately, there are many muslims who wish to by-pass this stage of islaah (reformation) and purification of the heart - in preference to getting more involved in the worldly scheme of things.
^ Again, this is important - but without losing the balance, and losing focus on the real goal for our individual lives.
-> Remember, the first aspect of ibaadah that we will be accountable for on the day of qiyamaat, will be our salaah.

In shaa Allah, I hope that this is one of the reasons as to why the board is relatively quieter recently - perhaps our brothers and sister are focussing on their ibaadat and their relationship with Allah, and making efforts to be of benefit to the ummah in a more direct manner....

There is lots that we can do from our side - e.g.
- Strive with your wealth - by contributing to the numerous charities and relief-funds,
- Strive physically - if you are a brother and have the means to do so - perhaps join those groups who are going out to deliver medical supplies, food, etc to those in need,
- Make abundant duaa for those who are facing all forms of trials around the world (be sincere, place yourself in their shoes, shed some tears and beg of Allah on their behalf).

And to remember:


"...Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in their hearts....." (Quran 13:11)



:wa:

The key is balance. All relevant aspects of Islam in any given time or situation should be discussed and focused on. Yet from what I have experienced there is not a balance at all. Words such as "jihad" or "khilafa" or even "sharia" are so rarely mentioned it is almost as if they have become "dirty words." I am sure this is a result of post-9/11 fear of oppression and persecution. At least from my experience though we aren't even being educated at all on Syria or Egypt in my community. The masjids are literally dead silent as if they won't even speak the words "Syria" or "Egypt" almost as if those countries don't even exist. So nobody would know what are proper charities/causes to support or donate to. I'm not seeing anything about the issues on masjid websites, there are no physical handouts, flyers, postcards, etc. with information. Nothing at all. I'm not advocating people do or support illegal activity but I'm also not supporting the castration, emasculation, and total pacification of our ummah either.

Here on IB forums I have learned so much about what is going on in Egypt and Syria complete with dialogue, links to articles, Youtube videos, pictures, audio files, etc. Why are our local masjids completely devoid of any of this? As a matter of fact, we have been told repeatedly not to take information from online. I am not imagining the fact that we are being silenced.

 

[جوري]

just want to inject some reality into this thread where we're apparently into conspiracy theories.
this photos is from 1903 a Bengali woman carrying her British 'Master'

This is the reality of them and don't you forget it.. of course now they ride you in a different way so it is more politically correct for the time!

 

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum

So the Fatwa committee answered your inquiry but provided no sources from Qur'an or Hadith? If what you quoted from them was the totality of their response, then the fact that no sources were cited is proof of a problem right there. I am not a scholar but I think it is fair to expect people in leadership roles (i.e. imams, leaders of halaqas, masjid committees, etc.) to be competent in being able to back up their decisions, interpretations, and recommendations from Qur'an and Sunnah.;


I agree that we must be responsible for our own actions. That may include our own lobbying to replace our ulema with more qualified ulema so that the "masses" are given the information they need to hear as opposed to the information they want to hear.

The above reply is the complete response - which, as you have correctly indicated - have 'no sources quoted from Quran and Hadith'.

^ And this is a completely fine, mashaAllah.
The reason why this is an acceptable response from a mufti stems from the following:

If, for example, a person suffers from a serious heart condition. What does he do?
-> He will obviously look for the best, and most qualified cardiologist in his area and consult him for appropriate advise and treatment.
Which means, that from the outset - before even walking into the cardiologists room - he is indirectly saying that: I accept this specialists knowledge, experience and good recommendations in the community, and this is the reason why I have chosen to consult him for this problem.

So, the cardiologist examines the person, and then gives him advice to take certain medications and that he will need a certain operation.
It will be good for the cardiologist to explain the persons medical condition to him, in the best and simplest way possible (for a lay-person to understand).....but if the patient were to ask for 'evidence' behind each and every medication or advice - will this be correct?

Of course not.
Why? Because, firstly the cardiologist will not have the time to do so.
And secondly: His advice is not based on information that he read from one/ two journals. Instead his conclusions are the result of years.....sometimes, decades of learning and experience.
Which means, that if the patient is asking for 'evidence' for each recommendation that is made by the cardiologist - he is actually saying that he does not trust this cardiologists decision (and he wants to verify it himself). It would be understandable if the cardiologist were to say: if you are not happy with my judgement, then you can go elsewhere....

For worldly matters, we may chose to get a 'second opinion'.

But when it comes to matters of deen, the teaching from our elders is that: Once you have chosen to contact a certain aalim (scholar) - it means that you already trust his knowledge and reliability (if not, then why would you contact him?).....and so, once a fatwa is provided, then we accept it, and practice upon it.
(if not, it results in 'shopping for fatwas', and following our desire for an answer that suits our limited understanding).
In this case, I trust the experience and the many, many years of study that this particular mufti has - and while it is possible for me to ask him to explain in more detail (for my own understanding) - it will be incorrect for me to doubt whether or not this fatwa is based on quraan and hadith.

(I realise that this is a long-winded reply, but in shaa Allah, it explains that we hold the knowledge that our elders have with respect and regard in shaa Allah.
Unfortunately, the current trend is for people to read a few articles on a topic, and then think that they are 'experts' in it.
Whereas, the advice of our ulema is based on many years of knowledge and from authentic sources in shaa Allah).

Further, there is no such thing in Islam as issues being heard in a "political lens vs. an Islamic lens." There is NO separation of church and state in Islam, none whatsoever. Either something is Islam or it is not Islam, period.

The point that was being made (and in the muftis reply) is that the civil wars that are currently occurring in many parts of the world, are not regarded as jihad by very many traditional scholars.

I certainly feel that salat, wudu, and matters of the heart are extremely important in Islam. But they are not the only things in Islam. We can't just focus on the parts of Islam that are convenient at the time and avoid the parts that are inconvenient because they might make people feel uncomfortable or involve an element of risk.

The description of the sisters hijab (or lack thereof) at your masjid, is a good example of how much emphasis needs to be placed on reforming peoples hearts and matters of day-to-day ibaadat.

Unfortunately, very often, the ones who want to take to the streets in protest of, for example, insults to the prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) and other matters - themselves, bear very little resemblance to his blessed manner.
Which is why, it seems acceptable to become passionate in 'defending islam' - by burning down property and other ways that are in complete contradiction to the teachings of islam......but there is little passion in following the sunnah of the beard, the prophet (saw) dress, men reading their daily salaah in jamaat, etc.
^ This stems from lack of knowledge and true love for the commands of Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam)......but more knowledge and love for worldly affairs.

The key is balance. All relevant aspects of Islam in any given time or situation should be discussed and focused on. Yet from what I have experienced there is not a balance at all. Words such as "jihad" or "khilafa" or even "sharia" are so rarely mentioned it is almost as if they have become "dirty words." I am sure this is a result of post-9/11 fear of oppression and persecution. At least from my experience though we aren't even being educated at all on Syria or Egypt in my community. The masjids are literally dead silent as if they won't even speak the words "Syria" or "Egypt" almost as if those countries don't even exist. So nobody would know what are proper charities/causes to support or donate to. I'm not seeing anything about the issues on masjid websites, there are no physical handouts, flyers, postcards, etc. with information. Nothing at all. I'm not advocating people do or support illegal activity but I'm also not supporting the castration, emasculation, and total pacification of our ummah either.

The fiqh of jihad is a topic for itself (which is best held by those who possess true knowledge in this field)....
However, as mentioned above, many imaams and scholars do not view the current wars as a form of jihad.

It is best that we take our cues in these matters from our ulema (and not small factions within the community), and in shaa Allah, we will safe-guard ourselves from falling into error (remember, we are living in a time when there will be much division within our ummah. Many people will be saying many different things.
For us, as simple muslims to ensure that we remain on the straight path in shaa Allah, it is best to stick close to those knowledgeable and trustworthy in our communities).

I dont think it would be easy to extrapolate what is happening at your masjid to everywhere else (even within your region)....

In my area, our imaams and other muslim leaders do speak of the calamities in other parts of the world, by means of:
- Duaa that is made in congregation.
- Some time ago, our local masjid held a night of prayer and zikr for the victims of egypt and syria
- Our local jamiat does discuss global affairs on their website. This is their link: http://jamiat.org.za/blog/category/news/
- Our local islamic radio stations holds many discussions about what is going on in many parts of the world.
- I constantly receive emails and sms alerts requesting donations for various relief projects: e.g. Gift of the Givers, Al Imdaad Foundation, etc (we just need to look out for reputable organisations and in shaa Allah, we can do our part - even if it is very small).

In other words, we may not find our imaams directly calling for support towards one group or another (as it is becoming increasingly difficult to identify who are the actual enemies to islam and who are not).
They hold positions of great responsibility in their respective communities, and so, there does need to be caution before passing any verdicts - that is often based on incomplete information, and for which, they will be held accountable for in the aakhirah.
(e.g. while Bassad is indeed a tyrant, there are also problems within the rebel groups as well......it really is not as clear as we would hope it to be).

But, at least in my part of the world, and I hope in many others, there are some attempts being made (no doubt, there is always room for improvement), to call the community to remember, make duaa for and support our brothers and sisters in all parts of the globe.


:wa:

 

[Independent]

As you will know, I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories. But Egypt is a different matter.

Did the military and police help to engineer the fall of Morsi by allowing crime and disorder on the streets and disrupting the economy? They certainly had strong motive. The Egyptian military has some highly unusual features that don't get much notice in the media. Over a period of decades they have increased their involvement in Egyptian commerce to the point when they now manage a large sector of the civilian economy:

As much as one-third of Egypt's economy is under military control, says Joshua Stacher, an Egyptian-military expert and assistant professor at Kent State University in Ohio. Revenues from military companies are a state secret, along with the armed forces budget, he says.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_09/b4217012945891.htm

Morsi made no move against military commercial interests during his short time in office. But perhaps the military saw that it was only a matter of time before he did.

The surprising thing is not that the generals might have wanted to act to preserve their honeypot. What’s remarkable is that the ordinary rank and file went along with it. Normally a conscript army like Egypt’s is useless for internal repression, because the loyalties of the troops can’t be trusted. (Which is why dictators like Saddam and Gadaffi had elite regiments separate from the regular army.)

Yet in the overthrow of Morsi, and in the riots afterwards, the army as a whole showed itself willing to act against the Brotherhood even to the point of shooting demonstrators. There were no reports of army defections and mutiny, as has occurred in Syria. It’s a testament to Morsi’s huge unpopularity outside his core Brotherhood support that the army obeyed their orders.

The generals knew that Mubarack lacked support and that’s why they stood aside. Similarly, they guessed right that Morsi was just as unpopular after a few short months, so he too could be dispensed with.

What they can’t magic away is the ongoing crisis in Egypt’s economy which has worsened with each stage of the revolution.

 

[جوري]

Mursi is hugely popular not just in Egypt but the world over the protests for him everyday are massive - I go to weekly protests in weekends before the Egyptian mission and the UN and for the small number of expats out here the numbers never decline in spite of rain or special occasions or weather and those in Egypt are frightening - precisely why Ashton goes there followed by Kerry to try to first give credence to the coup and support the dunces running it as the old fossils can't think for themselves they've been reared by Israel's camp David and the money they receive to support it - they try to invest in the Russian side to get another super power's recognition but the cash cow from the gulf state is on the decline and it's the coup generals that are highly unpopular!
Try to get your news from multiple sources and use those noodles I know it's hard but you can't receive an enema then release all the time we too can shop for news - what news is accurate well those with interests aren't gonna be the one drafting a truthful picture!

 

[Independent]

Mursi is hugely popular not just in Egypt but the world

You can delude yourself as much as you like, but if the support was what you say, the army could not have acted and he would still be in power.

Of course, the situation could easily change back in Morsi's favour. He has every chance of ending up far more popular as a victim than he was as a commander. And it's the army who will now get blamed for the wreck of the economy, not Morsi.

precisely why Ashton goes there followed by Kerry to try to first give credence to the coup and support the dunces running it as the old fossils can't think for themselves they've been reared by Israel's camp David and the money they receive to support it - they try to invest in the Russian side to get another super power's recognition but the cash cow from the gulf state

You misread the situation totally before the coup when you said the rank and file of the army would never move against Morsi. And you're just as wrong now. The coup was a bad outcome for the US. Although they had no reason to like the Brotherhood, in practice Morsi was abiding by the same general foreign policy as Mubarack.

It was predicted that the Brotherhood would win the first election, because of their better funding and organisation. It was even more predicatable that Morsi would have lost the next one, had the army not intervened. This would have been a dream result for the US of far, far greater value than anything a lousy military dictatorship can possibly deliver.

Whatever short term shadenfreude some US policymakers might feel for the misfortunes of the Brotherhood, the coup was a disaster for democracy and a serious setback for US interests. The freezing of US military aid and this cautious diplomacy is an attempt at a finding middle ground, but in truth they are ****ed if they do, ****ed if they don't.

 

[جوري]

You can delude yourself as much as you like, but if the support was what you say, the army could not have acted and he would still be in power.

calling me delusional isn't an argument I am afraid. The army has weapons, the army is only half a million to a population of 90 million.. simple math does the trick here- try to dig deeper before you write, there is more to any topic than a google search if you can't use those brain cells to make new connections!

Of course, the situation could easily change back in Morsi's favour. He has every chance of ending up far more popular as a victim than he was as a commander. And it's the army who will now get blamed for the wreck of the economy, not Morsi.

The situation with the people is in Mursi's favor..
Mursi was looking to dissolve camp David:
http://elmokhalestv.com/index/details/id/72414
which is why they had to get rid of him.

You misread the situation totally before the coup when you said the rank and file of the army would never move against Morsi. And you're just as wrong now. The coup was a bad outcome for the US. Although they had no reason to like the Brotherhood, in practice Morsi was abiding by the same general foreign policy as Mubarack.

That's not what i said go ahead and re quote me. I said the army the bulk of it not the general are conscript of the people and not like Syria where they are divided into alwaites who control the air force and bomb people from above.
Already generals in Egypt are divided amongst themselves seeing the situation on the streets have approached Mursi about a reprieve if they give the top corrupt generals up:
http://www.almokhtsar.com/node/222610
The coup is the outcome the U.S wants.. of course it didn't go smoothly as they counted on the fact that killing a few thousands would send the rest scurrying home as happened during the time of Gamal Abdul Nasser!

It was predicted that the Brotherhood would win the first election, because of their better funding and organisation. It was even more predicatable that Morsi would have lost the next one, had the army not intervened. This would have been a dream result for the US of far, far greater value than anything a lousy military dictatorship can possibly deliver.

The U.S was working with the Israeli lobby from day one to down with the brotherhood, and they've targeted their children for specifically that purpose and put the first rank leaders in their entirety in Jail on trumped up charges:

Whatever short term shadenfreude some US policymakers might feel for the misfortunes of the Brotherhood, the coup was a disaster for democracy and a serious setback for US interests. The freezing of US military aid and this cautious diplomacy is an attempt at a finding middle ground, but in truth they are ****ed if they do, ****ed if they don't.

There's no set back for the U.S except in the failure of their man sissy to carry out their agenda in a timely manner, so they simply shine some other general and call it democracy - they've no problems calling anything democracy so long as Egypt is a big useless country and their little pet Israel can sponge off everyone in the region and outside.
And they have not frozen the military aid in totality just partially and as stated before they can do things openly just to keep up with their image and the things they've down on paper before the nations and coax another one of their colonies to fund as was done before in Nicaragua and they got Saudi to fund it.

Clearly as with every topic this is quite over your head. I am not sure why you continue to pose yourself as some authority figure on any topic here when the sum of your knowledge is a three second google search that always comes up empty!

best,

 

[shahadainmaine]

Assalamu alaikum.

We Muslims need to become more organized. There are around 1.7 billion of us and in many cases we can't even communicate with each other effectively within our own masjids let alone come together to establish the Khilafa. I'm not sure how compromised Ikhwan/MB is but that does not make everyone in the ummah powerless and helpless regardless of where we are located. Change starts on the smallest level. I am rather disappointed in some aspects of my local Muslim community mainly being that while dedicated brothers and sisters are being slaughtered in Egypt and countless more on a consistent basis in Syria, our khutbas and halaqas are talking about wudu and salat, matters of the heart, time management, and environmentalism. Picnics, potlucks, dinners, and other social events are routinely organized yet it is made quite obvious and clear that any political discussion of any kind related to what is going on in the ummah is to be muted. That is not Islam. While I certainly think those topics and social events do have a place in Islam, they are certainly not to be a replacement for the larger more serious issues. It is not just infidels who are trying to destroy Islam. It seems as if plenty of "Muslims" are hard at work at this too. Clearly there is something going on and I don't like it. Any Muslim who can't see how clearly there is a worldwide war against Islam underway is clearly clueless in my opinion. Yet the biggest elephant in the room is what nobody seems to wish to discuss. Even this discussion board has become much quieter over the past two months. I am not advocating that Muslims in America take to the streets in violent riots over what is happening to our brothers and sisters overseas. But there needs to be some very serious dialogue going on in our local Muslim communities. I don't think I am the only one who is experiencing this suspicious silence. The truth is the truth and we should be fearing what Allah (swt) is thinking, not what Fox News or Homeland Security is thinking. It really is a sad state of affairs and it is up to us to change it insha'Allah.

I understand what you have written. Certainly a Masjid should do more than potlucks and social events. From my own personal experience though I tend to get a little uncomfortable when the Iman of the mosque I've started attending (I'm not a Muslim...yet at least, but am very interested) talks about politics. He does not really talk about it during Friday prayers but on Sundays he does a Quran study and every week he talks about Syria. Please, do not misunderstand! I do think people should be engaged and concerned about what happens in the world, bu during Quran study I was to learn about the Quran. Also, I think my Iman is a Shia (I am not sure, I am still learning about Islam so it is difficult for me to know for sure) and this informs his worldview. Whenever he talks about Syria he always likes to describe it as an attempt to attack Islam being carried out by Israel and Saudi Arabia & the Muslim Brotherhood (though, since the military has taken over in Egypt he doesn't mention them so much anymore) and he usually likes to frame the fighting there as some sort of end times event with a descendant of Ishmael and Isaac being on the good side (the Mahdi and Jesus) and descendants of Ishmael and Isaac being on the evil side (Saudi Arabia/Muslim Brotherhood and Israel).

 

[Independent]

That's not what i said go ahead and re quote me. I said the army the bulk of it not the general are conscript of the people and not like Syria where they are divided into alwaites who control the air force and bomb people from above

Your English is a little mixed up here so i can't be sure, but you seem to be repeating what I just said. As a conscript army, the Egyptian army is closer to the people than a professional army. The generals can say what they like, but they can't order the army to open fire on the people unless the army itself has some degree of support for opposing Morsi. That's why you misjudged the situation before the coup - because you assume his support was far stronger than it actually was.

Mursi was looking to dissolve camp David:
http://elmokhalestv.com/index/details/id/72414
which is why they had to get rid of him.

As far as I can see, Morsi stated he wished to reform Camp David, not abolish it. (Particularly in relation to the Sinai.) Your link is an Arabic so I don't know if it claims more than that.

There's no set back for the U.S except in the failure of their man sissy to carry out their agenda in a timely manner, so they simply shine some other general and call it democracy

The US does not call the current regime a democracy, and they have repeatedly called for a path to restore democratic rule. (Not that it seems very possible right now.)

Even if the US government had a far better understanding of Egyptian public opinion than you - and somehow miraculously foresaw the complex chain of events, and the changing sentiment of the crowds, from the fall of Mubarack through to today's regime - it still makes no sense as a policy. It's one dictator replaced by another. Even if we pretend that you're right, and they are/were both controlled by the US in some magical way, it makes no sense.

Whereas, if democracy had been allowed to take its course and remove Morsi in the normal way a few years from now, the benefit to US policy would have been incalculable. A real game changer.

 

[جوري]

Your English is a little mixed up here so i can't be sure

That's your excuse whenever the noose tightens around your neck I know!

but you seem to be repeating what I just said. As a conscript army, the Egyptian army is closer to the people than a professional army. The generals can say what they like, but they can't order the army to open fire on the people unless the army itself has some degree of support for opposing Morsi. That's why you misjudged the situation before the coup - because you assume his support was far stronger than it actually was.

In fact there were mercenaries & black water in Egypt and all those who opposed Sissy from the army were put in jail or killed and then their killing blamed on the MB as they dragged them to Sinai which is pretty much cut off from the rest of Egypt & then their death blamed on 'terrorists'- they've also cut off thousands of trains and established checkpoints coming from upper Egypt which is 70% of Egypt because they know if ahel as'saeed plus Sinai get into Cairo the coup and their boot licking liberals will be pretty much done for so it has nothing to do with popularity- it never did, the 'popularity' brought Mursi and the MB five consecutive elections-- This has to do with funding from outside countries for their personal gains and interests it has to do with who has the weapons and the state media and stands to gain by making Egypt dwarfed instead of rising with the best it has to offer!
http://elshaab.org/thread.php?ID=70542

As far as I can see, Morsi stated he wished to reform Camp David, not abolish it. (Particularly in relation to the Sinai.) Your link is an Arabic so I don't know if it claims more than that.

If you want to discuss politics of a particular area it is imperative that your sources are accurate or at least you've the slightest clue of what it is you're talking about. I am afraid your three second google search fails you here as it fails you everywhere. It requires understanding and connection of events and some fundamental knowledge of history & politics and sometimes even science which is an area completely over your head!

The US does not call the current regime a democracy, and they have repeatedly called for a path to restore democratic rule. (Not that it seems very possible right now.)

They don't have to, sissy is working on having tenure in his position should he run for presidency and lose. All he has to do is take off his uniform, and they've already worked to abolish the MB the most organized and best educated and oldest party with connection to the people so that all that will be left for the people to 'choose' from is the one remaining 'democratic' choice, much like the democratic choice that existed with mubarak!

Even if the US government had a far better understanding of Egyptian public opinion than you - and somehow miraculously foresaw the complex chain of events, and the changing sentiment of the crowds, from the fall of Mubarack through to today's regime - it still makes no sense as a policy. It's one dictator replaced by another. Even if we pretend that you're right, and they are/were both controlled by the US in some magical way, it makes no sense.

You've difficulty understanding many simple things so we can't graduate you to more complex situations, I am not surprised as to why this makes no sense to you. The U.S has no interest in having Egypt do what its president set out to do:
plant own food, make own weapons and define the enemy!

Whereas, if democracy had been allowed to take its course and remove Morsi in the normal way a few years from now, the benefit to US policy would have been incalculable. A real game changer.

They can't wait a few years with someone planting in Sudan, working with Brazil and North korea and his project for the Suez Canal, all while mediating the events in an Israeli led war against Gaza and that is with all the concocted problems he was facing including an economy that is 10% of what his thief predecessor worked with and the fact that a 60+ regime was so entrenched in all the major institutions that simply removing the figure heads isn't enough of a cleansing process!

best,

 

[Independent]

In fact there were mercenaries & black water in Egypt

Yes, about 3 million of them, i saw them on tv rioting

If you can't read Arabic I can't help you there

Then put it in the Arabic forum.

They don't have to, sissy is working on having tenure in his position should he run for presidency and lose. All he has to do is take off his uniform, and they've already worked to abolish the MB so that when the people 'choose' there's only one 'democratic' choice, much like the democratic choice that existed with mubarak!

You're getting closer here - the real casualty of this coup is democracy itself. Sissy can't credibly restore democracy without MB, and MB won't join in any election under Sissy's rules. So it won't happen. Democracy is dead for a generation, in the meantime it's just a question of who has more guns.

The U.S has no interest in having Egypt do what its president set out to do:
plant own food, make own weapons and define the enemy!

This is your favourite fantasy. A kind of naive nationalism reminiscent of Sadat and wholly unachievable today.

Overall, your views are trainwrecked by your fantasies about US motives. You just make up a whole story on what you think they might 'want' to do, and when events turn out differently, you simply change the story. I can't think of anything you've successfully predicted.

From a US perspective, the situation with Sisi is clearly worse than it was under Mubarack and not something that any policymaker could possibly seek. A stable regime has been replaced by an unstable one. The already weakened economy is now even worse - which makes further revolution highly likely.

More seriously for US strategic influence, the Sisi regime and the Saudis blame the US for not supporting them. Yet at the same time, MB sympathisers blame the US for helping them too much. It's easy to see why they're trying hard not to move too quickly in any direction, till they see how things pan out.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Whereas...

Why exactly are you trying to debate جوري ???

She can not even acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that the Shia are a majority of Iraq's population.

 

[Independent]

Why exactly are you trying to debate جوري ???

She can not even acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that the Shia are a majority of Iraq's population.

Ah. but you see, I know she secretly agrees with me.

 

[جوري]

Why exactly are you trying to debate جوري ???

She can not even acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that the Shia are a majority of Iraq's population.

I can't verify that? truly you're a hoot..
I'd think you'd be embarrassed to point out your ignorance so openly again in lieu of hoping it would simply dissipate into some crevice of the web..
<span style="font-family: Courier New"><font color="DarkSlateGray"><font size="3">

if you're not happy with the results try to set up your own survey and get back to us with something other than search results that agree with your agenda, as I can easily produce evidence to the contrary!

I like big dog me too thing you've going here- It is just unfortunate you always assume the role of a gadfly with such success

best,

 

[جوري]

• Yes, about 3 million of them, i saw them on tv rioting

Glad you get your education from TV.. try google earth too and see how that works out for ya - you know for a second opinion and see if your brain can process two separate realities without shutting down

Then put it in the Arabic forum.

I'll put it anywhere I want- your ignorance of a language is no excuse & should if you'd an ounce of intellectual honesty hold you back from gauging a topic clearly over your head. You can purchase as many glasses as you want, if you're illiterate sporting the look won't make you literate.. same thing applies here, googling doesn't make you intelligent or even remotely knowledgeable but an unfortunate waste of everyone's time.

You're getting closer here - the real casualty of this coup is democracy itself. Sissy can't credibly restore democracy without MB, and MB won't join in any election under Sissy's rules. So it won't happen. Democracy is dead for a generation, in the meantime it's just a question of who has more guns.

democracy is a meaningless catch all term. The only thing we can viably take from it, is choosing the leader. The system itself needs to change from the debacle that it is to a proper Islamic state. The MB won't join any elections because they've thrown them in jail and brandished the party 'terrorists' with blessings from the colonial cockroach state which helped them with the rabi3a incident including the specific targeting of MB children!

This is your favourite fantasy. A kind of naive nationalism reminiscent of Sadat and wholly unachievable today.

If it were such a fantasy and unachievable then there would have been no harm keeping Mursi in his seat- I have no idea what Sadat has to do with this, Sadat and the turd that preceded are far removed from Islam or any intelligent thought reminiscent of you than anything else!

Overall, your views are trainwrecked by your fantasies about US motives. You just make up a whole story on what you think they might 'want' to do, and when events turn out differently, you simply change the story. I can't think of anything you've successfully predicted.

We call that projection- and I have called you out on it several times including your meandering of topics as new facts become apparent to you and as you lose credibility for your all too often and too obvious lack of knowledge of the subject matter not to mention frank plagiarizing as happened on the what did morsi do thread! Guess it was burning you enough to seek any opportunity to throw that back as if our short term memory is as horrible as yours!

You're very much akin to the coup generals guilty of massacres yet holding the president kidnapped of those charges. Not sure who you're trying to convince of your all too usual drivel, yourself or anyone here? As stated before I hope they amend the almanac you use to reply to unexpected scenarios and train a bit more for the money you make to post such laughable BS!

From a US perspective, the situation with Sisi is clearly worse than it was under Mubarack and not something that any policymaker could possibly seek. A stable regime has been replaced by an unstable one. The already weakened economy is now even worse - which makes further revolution highly likely.

Mubarak is an 83++ year old goat whose son had no likability and no roots in the army as he was too busy stealing, he would have been the preferred choice for the U.S- Mubarak just didn't understand that his pals could give him up that easily as stated it doesn't matter to them who is in office so long as the regime remains the same and they can just label it democracy or socialism or whatever appears good on paper, they also had a list of alternatives Omar Suliman (who ended up in a proper roast) or Anan or el Baradi (although he's definitely a long shot) they still have a few American bred American fed traitors to do their bidding:

.. too bad for them sissy turned out to be such a sissy they'll just regroup and go to the next turd and heavily arm and fund him just so long as Egypt doesn't fall into the arms of Islamists, at least not MB type Islamists because they actually have a vision for the country. They've no problems with Egypt turning like Pakistani 'Islamists' who are morons!
Egypt in chaos and Syria in destruction means that the pliers aren't around Israel's whorish neck- so it is all good for them no matter how it is sliced!

More seriously for US strategic influence, the Sisi regime and the Saudis blame the US for not supporting them. Yet at the same time, MB sympathisers blame the US for helping them too much. It's easy to see why they're trying hard not to move too quickly in any direction, till they see how things pan out.

You're a simpleton who draws satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions and yet wish to drag the entire world down to your low common denominator .. stupidity loves company I suppose so hang with yourself or your little pal 'me too' and convince yourselves of your own brand of reality!


best,

 

[جوري]

Ah. but you see, I know she secretly agrees with me.

I agree you are an enfant provocateur- yes!

 

[جوري]