Frustrations in getting married

[Who Am I?]

After reading all of that, all I can say is, it looks like I'm going to be single for a while.

And you know what? I'm becoming OK with that...

 

[noorseeker]

:heated::heated::heated: aaaaaaahhhhh i need a wife

Oh sorry guys didnt see you there ;D , i meant i need a life ;D

 

[Riana17]

I'm loving your new smileys, where'd you get them from?

Salam Alaikkum

Sorry Sis, I dont have specific sites, but I would be happy to tell you how, I'm just googling them - pls go to google.com then images,e.g. look for 'smiley happy face', then lots would come out inshallah, in the left area you can look for ICON, size would be fit in forums like this, not too big

On the other hand, Brother's Ardianto reply is always ISLAMIC, thanks for sharing with us. Very useful for open minded people. I am glad you know how to live for future.
I am a shy person hence I didn't like any party, I am not comfortable with people making time for me, but I would be honest that it was quiet a dream for me when I was not a Muslim, now life is easier, no big dreams anymore.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

But what about those of us who are super sexy but still can't find a wife? ^o)

I don't know man..I'm in the same situation..Ill let you know when I find a solution to this.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

The golden rule - just in case we've forgotten and to put everything into perspective:

{Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity...}24:26

Most of what people say, sounds easy but putting it into practise is much more complex.

He states people need to work harder, guess what, many men already do overtime, they tons of it, who's to say the people on here, usually only on for a few minutes each day, don't work like maniacs right now? It's at a stage no matter how hard the man works, in fact the harder he works, the more he earns he'll end up more likely spending more on the wedding.

True..but I guess I was speaking more generally? Like a lot of people fantasize about marriage and how awesome it is whereas in real life they're not taking proactive steps towards it.

You say women are expensive and emotionally expensive, that is correct they are, the question is, should they be? On average my uncle's outfits cost £15-£30, perhaps an expensive shirt might cost £25, but that's for special occasions, the average suit my aunty wears costs £150 if the husbands don't spend that much on their wives, they are considered stingy/miserly. Women seriously and moreso their families, seriously seriously need to be like this, a wedding should cost around £2000 not £20000, all that money, especially in these difficult times, would help them buy a house much sooner. I hate weddings, I absolutely hate them because I think of the poor guys, the men who have been emotionally forced into spending this outrageous amount on the wedding.

I don't think the question is of whether something should or should not be - because that steps us into ideals and takes us away from reality. Reality is women are expensive, sometimes in more ways than one. She might be a simple girl, but she might require a lot of emotional investment. Or she might be financially expensive but distant emotionally. Either way, I was speaking generally.

Also from a religious perspective based on what I've understood is that a man should be able to provide for her at the very least the same level her father was providing for her. So choose your ladies wisely folks.

I totally get feeling bad for the poor guys who've been forced into that but I think its wrong to hate weddings for it. Weddings are awesome events (you can find your wife in one too!) so long as it's done in moderation.

I don't know a single man, you guys can dispute this if you like, I don't know a single man who cares about whether his wedding is fancy or not, whether it's the most extravagant the town has seen. But the ladies, that have to have it extravagant, no matter how extravagant it will never be extravagant enough. Due to the cost of my wedding, I will not be able to buy a house for a least another 3 years, had it been a simple wedding, I could have perhaps bought on within the next 4 months, at least put the deposit down for one.

I get your frustration, it's sad that it has to be that way. I completely agree, no dude really gives a pakora whether his wedding is fancy or not. He just wants it to end lol.

Women are expensive, weddings are even more expensive and they should not be.

Weddings should not be - I agree. Women - it's hard to define an entity that has grown up in certain circumstances with certain values and norms by something that is relative. What is expensive to me might not be expensive to someone who is of her financial class.

As for men and their wants. It's extremely shallow when you hear men and their mothers always asking for a "slim, fair and beautiful" girl before asking for the ones with good character. How shallow of these men to look for that. Whilst it's important to marry someone you're attracted to, you don't have to marry a supermodel, especially if you look unattractive yourself. Let's be honest, about 10-15% of the world population can be classed as physically very attractive right? So does that mean the other 80+% don't have the right to marry or they should be at the back of the queue. I have cut ties with guys who has spoken of women in such ways and I pray I don't ever think like that, even if I am blessed with children of my own.

I think you dislike their 'wants' (for a lack of better word) because of certain cultural constructs that define you and that's fine. I don't think it's shallow when a dude has preference towards a certain type of girl with certain features - that's his prerogative. It's shallow when he i)bases his entire decision on it, and ii) doesn't consider other factors.

I also think that the statistical argument you're making is not of relevance primarily because beauty and attraction are relative. You can't technically say, '10% are hot, the rest are not' - because you're using certain standards to measure beauty whereas others might not use those same standards of measurement.

Regarding the confidence thing, I think it's wonderful that many brothers lack confidence, it's a sign of their reserved and perhaps shy nature. Surely the girls should be looking for the shy boys, the ones less likely to have been mucking around with girls prior to marriage? So that she and him can grow in confidence together in married life?

You misunderstand me. Hayaa is not a lack of confidence, it is the height of confidence. The opposite of being timid. Confidence means a man that is comfortable in who he is, who know's what he wants, who can be a leader and step up and make proper decisions. Someone who is fair and yet doesn't take trash from other people. A man that makes a girl feel protected. A man can be shy but he can also be a leader. The Messenger (saw) had the most hayaa of anyone yet he was the leader and the perfect example of a confident man.

A person can gain that quality in many ways. Taking a speech class. Talking to people outside and making light conversation. Looking into people's eyes when they talk to them.

I went to a wedding once with my uncle, and the bride and the groom were family friends, the man was 36 and the bride was 34, both of them getting married for the first time. He said to me, how much better would it have been if this man married this same girl in their early 20s when they were young and beautiful, now they are both old with half their lives wasted. I have to echo the thoughts, if you're going to leave your first wedding so late, what is the point really?

Completely agree.

I think you've interpreted Muraad's idea of 'confidence' a little differently than he would have intended.

In my opinion, there's a difference between arrogant, ego-based confidence and the kind of confidence that comes about from a deep rooted conviction in something. The former is the attribute of a misguided individual whereas the latter is the idea of a person stepping up and quite literally, just 'being a man' when the need arises.

Note, however, that being confident based on conviction is not mutually exclusive with being humble and reserved/shy. Much depends on the context. There's a time to be shy and modest and there's a time to be confident.

What he said!!

I agree with alpha dude, a man without self confidence, hmmm, even if he's quite good looking, he doesn't make a popular female choice, but a confident man, no matter how plain looking, catches quite a few girls' fancies. But confidence is also something that one can work on, I've known people who used to be overtly shy at young age and have groomed themselves to be quite pleasantly confident, sans the arrogance and impoliteness. It definitely is an acquirable and admirable trait, for
both men and women.

As far as the arrogant confidence is concerned, it comes from either a sheer lack of some good parenting, or excess of it. It also comes from a deep sense of inferiority complex, and the arrogant person usually tries to overcome it by sounding super cool, sarcastic, uncaring and impolite. Such people rarely have lasting or meaningful relationships, they only worship their self, and are only concerned about their self/their feelings and their moods.

A BAD choice for marriage, such people, so all girlies out there, beware , since women really tend to get attracted to this type and realize only when its too late

+1!

Brother Ardianto, you have slots 2, 3 and 4 empty? ;D;D;D;D

For a second I thought a sister wrote this post! Talk about awkward!

I know this ain't directed to me but I am not ugly , I'm very good looking masAllah :statisfie ( how modest ;D)
But looks don't play the slightest part where I gather my confidence from, I have this friend who is quite pretty and she is always alwayyyyss in a looksworry :, Result: she spends an awful lot of time on her appearance and dressing, and has very few manners or any skills besides looking good, looks down upon people who don't wear expensive stuff and etc.

What use is the appreciation of your looks if it isn't even helping you as a person, and makes you believe in the delusional extent of the affect of your beauty on others, such an azmayesh( test) to even have good looks.

I agree! (Not with the first statement obviously because I've never seen you, but what you wrote after)

I agree with the part where you said looks isn't where confidence comes from.

My good looking friend told me "my wife is absolutely not beautiful".

That's true, his wife is not beautiful. But I know why he married the girl who now becomes his wife (and still love her until now). Because she is an attractive woman.

Confused ?. Let me explain. Beauty is not same as attraction. Every beautiful person is attractive person. But not every attractive person is beautiful person. Like my friend's wife, she is absolutely not beautiful. But she has nice character and personality. She could make people feel comfortable talking with her, and she is always treat people nicely. It's make her becomes attractive woman. I know her since long time ago before she married. And honestly, in the past I attracted to her too , but my friend had comes earlier.

True! I also find that many people confuse beauty with youth. Meaning they like a young girl and because she's pretty that she'll stay like that for a long time.

For mature men, the woman's main attraction is character & personality, not beauty.

True, but I really think that he'll only even try to get to know her character and personality if he's at the very least slightly attracted to her.

I firmly believe a man should find a woman he's attracted to physically first and then inquire about character, piety and personality and make decision based on the latter qualities - because men are visual creatures and he needs a lady at home that'll help him lower his gaze. One of the main reasons of marriage is intimacy and as far as I know, no dude will ever get intimate with a lady he's not attracted to. This is indicative from the Hadeeth where the Prophet (saw) commanded young men to marry because it helps in lowering the gaze - he tied marriage (cause) with lowering the gaze (effect). So, putting aside the ideal that 'if she/he is amazing in personality, deen, character, I won't care about looks ' is false. Especially for men. Most dudes have spent 20+ years seeing women they find beautiful around them and if they place a certain amount of emphasis on looks - I don't think that's being shallow, it's only shallow when that becomes the deciding factor.

 

[ardianto]

Now, time to work on my confidence so I can get married

But bro, if what you do in looking for a wife is choose and reject only by photo, you will never get married.

You need to meet. And you can find the attractive side of that girl, and that girl can find your attractive side.

aaaaaaahhhhh i need a wife

Oh sorry guys didnt see you there , i meant i need a life

Don't be ashamed. Want to get married is a good thing, not shameful thing.

If you want to looking for a wife but you don't know how, what you must do is tell people around you. Maybe they will laugh, but only for a moment and then they will really help you. Many people got married through this way.

And for shy guys, it's better if they can get 'active matchmaker' to help them. Different than 'passive matchmaker' who only search an information and gives that guy the girl photo. The 'active matchmaker' will gives input to the shy guy about how that girl is, what that shy guy must do. Even after they meet and the shy guy doesn't know how to start talking, the 'active matchmaker' will start it for him.

 

[ardianto]

True, but I really think that he'll only even try to get to know her character and personality if he's at the very least slightly attracted to her.

I firmly believe a man should find a woman he's attracted to physically first and then inquire about character, piety and personality and make decision based on the latter qualities - because men are visual creatures and he needs a lady at home that'll help him lower his gaze. One of the main reasons of marriage is intimacy and as far as I know, no dude will ever get intimate with a lady he's not attracted to. This is indicative from the Hadeeth where the Prophet (saw) commanded young men to marry because it helps in lowering the gaze - he tied marriage (cause) with lowering the gaze (effect). So, putting aside the ideal that 'if she/he is amazing in personality, deen, character, I won't care about looks ' is false. Especially for men. Most dudes have spent 20+ years seeing women they find beautiful around them and if they place a certain amount of emphasis on looks - I don't think that's being shallow, it's only shallow when that becomes the deciding factor.

Okay, I will make a confession, and I hope no one will call me shallow.

I was a 'lucky guy' when I was young. I didn't need to looking for girls but the girls were coming to me. But I avoid all of them because I didn't attracted to them. Frankly, they were not beautiful.

But beauty was not the only factor in my decision. I dated with a very attractive girl (it was happened when I far from Islam), but I stopped it because she was materialistic.

Might be I would not propose a marriage to 'girl from the south' if she was not beautiful (later she left me). And might be (although I am always deny it) one factor that made me married my wife is because she is beautiful. And might be one factor that made them accept me (although my wife always deny it while 'the girl from the south' was admitting it) was my handsomeness.

In fact, many beautiful women married handsome guys.

However, those who physically not beautiful or handsome still can be attractive, and they still can get married. Of course they cannot expect too high. Like a sister in another thread wrote "if you are not Brad Pitt, don't expect Angelina Jolie".

But I realize, beauty and handsomeness are not something that exist longer. If we stuck on these, later after our spouse grow older we will start to looking for another beautiful women. It's happened to some of my friends.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

But you gotta realize, there will be times you'll come home to a wife that's mad or sad for no reason or is crying for no reason.

To make it easier to understand, I have decided to add in a pie chart for further clarification:

 

[Who Am I?]

I used to tell girls at bars that I drink because they cry.

 

[Ramadhan]

I used to tell girls at bars that I drink because they cry.

Girls have soft spot for men they find "defect", their motherly instincts come to rescue ;D

 

[Riana17]

To make it easier to understand, I have decided to add in a pie chart for further clarification:

Salam Alaikkum

This is somehow correct, but not cry, I dont know about others but I cry once a year on average and definitely I know the reason behind and I wont ever ever cry & embarass myself in front of the others unless its too painful. I guess because I used to hard life and hence there's no room for crying alot but fight.

However the big pie is almost correct, women feels that 'strange' for no valid reason at all. We feel vulnerable & helpless sometimes even things are perfectly fine???

Allah created us like this.

alhamdollelah my husband is very good observer, he knows when i feel down & knows what to do.
He is also v.good to his sisters and mom, like last month his mom can't sleep at 2am, He said what, my mom

at 2am lool? though he felt she wants to talk & although he was very sleepy he immediately drove her at the seaside and he tried to make a conversation with her, she started to say many things and he do his business

What a man gotta do, what a man gotta do? A wise man knows the answer.

 

[ardianto]

Girls have soft spot for men they find "defect", their motherly instincts come to rescue

Seriously, some married men see this woman's instinct as weak point that they can utilize to get those women.

At first, those married men will approach those women as friends. And when they start to close, gradually, those married men will start to tell stories about unhappines in their marriage life because those wives treat them badly. Of course those stories actually not true.


@ sisters.
Be careful if a married man start to tell you about his 'unhappy marriage life'.

 

[Who Am I?]

Girls have soft spot for men they find "defect", their motherly instincts come to rescue ;D

As always, I prove to be the exception to this rule. I have serious issues and have had them for years, and no woman would come near me. So I have to disagree with you here.

Now I don't drink and they still cry.

 

[SFatima]

As always, I prove to be the exception to this rule.

( not saying it to you) In my limited observation, I think that smart/hurtful sarcasm also keeps women away...:shade: (but yes women do find friendly, light Humor very charming in men) I have noticed, that some men who are quite finicky, and extremely observant of other's flaws , and drop a few comments here or there about their women's flaws, are sure to get their women disappear fast .. Women do not take criticism from a man, so well , and that too initially, obviously in relationships once the understanding has developed, you know each other well to say/ do things which may not offend the other person, but sarcasm, doesn't go down well :mmokay: . This is one of the reasons that comes to the mind, as a very common observation....But with you reasons could be different since I don't know you, I was only sharing my very limited observation about this part of the world...

I do agree with the opinion, that some women do have the tendency to feel all motherly for men who've had it rough in life and have some kind of a problem, but if such men are not sweet/considerate to these women, even they will run away...:hiding:

 

[SFatima]

The golden rule -

Is also this hadith,(words similar) " A woman is married for 4 things, beauty, wealth & status, Family background and her deen".

It was later explained in another hadith when a sahabi asked " what if I marry a woman for her beauty?" the Prophet saw replied, " khaak alood hon ( soil in the hands) of whom, who marries a woman only for her beauty" If you marry her for her deen, Allah swt will bless your hearts with mutual love and bless your union; increase you in wealth and status and etc, but if you marry her specifically for any of her material attributes, you shall not find complete satisfaction in her." I am stating only the mafhum ( meaning of that hadith, that I read somewhere, sorry cannot give its number here)

So choose your ladies wisely folks.

And I hope wisely means, do not look for beauty features of hollywood /bollywood plastic botoxed/surgically nip tucked beauties. Men usually take their beauty cues from there and apply to it the common next door girls.

I totally get feeling bad for the poor guys who've been forced into that but I think its wrong to hate weddings for it. Weddings are awesome events (you can find your wife in one too!) so long as it's done in moderation.

hmm that sounds like a rather pakistani/indian statement .."weddings are fantastic events, they give one the opportunity to ogle at females of all kinds, who're done in layers of makeup and jewellery, in a mixed Un-islamic gathering, " could be right for some, but the best places to find good girls and boys, where you also get to know some part of their nature, are religious gatherings, and or some kind of a social work event. If, offcorse the inclination to religion does matter to one.

You misunderstand me. Hayaa is not a lack of confidence, it is the height of confidence. The opposite of being timid. Confidence means a man that is comfortable in who he is, who know's what he wants, who can be a leader and step up and make proper decisions. Someone who is fair and yet doesn't take trash from other people. A man that makes a girl feel protected. A man can be shy but he can also be a leader. The Messenger (saw) had the most hayaa of anyone yet he was the leader and the perfect example of a confident man.

Agree very much here.

True, but I really think that he'll only even try to get to know her character and personality if he's at the very least slightly attracted to her.

true for men. Most, infact all girls who dress up nicely, keep themselves well groomed and all, look nice to men, but then again beauty doesn't last for long, might be very important for a man who is getting married for the first time. But it is just awful to see that some of my Most beautiful friends( by all standards of holly/bolly are the most unhappiest ones, and these are those, who go an extra mile in taking care of themselves and their families. Too sad, they had to marry those men who were all like puppy dawgs before marriage and now don't have the time or the courtesy to even spare them a nice glance.

Like I said earlier, if you choose a man because he is in love with your beauty,( and is not a sensible religiously inclined person) be prepared to skulk all your life when his eyes wander; since beauty is highly relative, if you get what you want, your eyes start to want something different/even better. Like my friend's husband used to like this well known model's looks and married her( she is still quite good looking and all), and now he hates thin, well kept women and is always found admiring/ogling, eastern looking, homely, more rounded women who don't have that model attitude : and for the life of her she cant gain weight.( I have learnt a great deal from people's successes/lack of successes, from around me )

I firmly believe a man should find a woman he's attracted to physically first and then inquire about character, piety and personality and make decision based on the latter qualities - because men are visual creatures and he needs a lady at home that'll help him lower his gaze. One of the main reasons of marriage is intimacy and as far as I know, no dude will ever get intimate with a lady he's not attracted to. This is indicative from the Hadeeth where the Prophet (saw) commanded young men to marry because it helps in lowering the gaze - he tied marriage (cause) with lowering the gaze (effect). So, putting aside the ideal that 'if she/he is amazing in personality, deen, character, I won't care about looks ' is false. Especially for men. Most dudes have spent 20+ years seeing women they find beautiful around them and if they place a certain amount of emphasis on looks - I don't think that's being shallow, it's only shallow when that becomes the deciding factor.

MAybe true for some to not consider beauty that much, but not true for some as well. There are a few men in my observation who were fine looking themselves and did not require so much beauty in a woman and have really plain looking wives who have good natures and personalities, and they have MashAllah quite good relations. Such a man may appreciate looks of another nicer looking female, but granted that he isn't charmed out of his wits to pursue her just because of her beauty, I guess very few men are like that, perhaps only the strong warrior types.

But for someone who is looks conscious enough, should go for something that is very pleasing to his eyes. Also Brothers should match the looks of their sisters with their potential spouses,in the sense that if other people see/hear of this brother with an exceptionally beautiful wife, who has a normal attractive/plain looking sister, other men will pass over their sister too and get the message that beauty is, infact 'the" real deal..

We don't (usually hate our mothers and sisters for their looks, neither do we appreciate them more just because they are beautiful, they have to be nice to us for us to develop the love and respect for them, same goes for our friends, we don't choose our friends for their looks, neither do they stick around us for our looks, so yes personalities do play a bigger role than most of us initially realize. A person who works on his personality,(from the religion's point of view) also usually works on their entire persona/ image ,so they usaully are attractive people, inside and out.

I do think, however, that most men's perception of beauty is rather severely skewed, esp religious men. ( they expect hoors in this world in reward for keeping their gaze lower, that can also mean that pretty women can also expect Palaces, ferraris, expensive gowns and rare jewels in return for their acceptance of a spouse. No?) I don't think that the current situation of the Ummah favors such a trend. There is enough fitnah out there, and enough divorces, of nicer looking people, mind you. So yes, choose wisely

May All brothers and sisters find the best suitable matches soon aammeen .

 

[SFatima]

After reading all of that, all I can say is, it looks like I'm going to be single for a while.

And you know what? I'm becoming OK with that...

Lol I think you are getting scared of marriage, really it can't be that horrible, better than being lonely, all that drama really gives you a lot to be active about, adds a lot more joys to your list : and also gives you somebody around to cook nice stuff for you . How good it is for men to get married , count your blessings, not fears. Marriage is sunnah, if you think great about yourself people will sense the same about you inshAllah. ( Im not married but I sure seem to have all those palaces, cupcakes, fairies and chirping birds in my dreams )

To make it easier to understand, I have decided to add in a pie chart for further clarification:

Actually the "???" is this pie chart is about men not working towards finding out why women cry, and rather just watch tv or a game :. I have never seen a woman who cries just like that. Although there could be some, but I am glad I haven't come across them, so much crying, hmmm annoying, probably they have a deeper disorder..? I have heard of such a girl though, but she had psychological issues because of child abuse, so that was a serious case, which needs a lot of support indeed.

Apart from that, religious women are fairly strong, usually , if they haven't been pampered ostentatiously enough to cry at the drop of a handkerchief. But I do feel women are emotionally sensitive, what hurts a woman may never hurt a man, but thats why women get hurt because Allah swt probably(definitely) wants men to empathize and work towards developing some sensitivity towards women that they usually lack, and women should learn some from men and adopt some immunity from emotions that the men have, and thus sit and laugh when the man impatiently asks for food : lol That might teach them how we feel

 

[kingkong]

Do men really make the fuss about the girl being beautiful or is it the families? I thought it was both families who made these statements???

 

[ardianto]

I used to tell girls at bars that I drink because they cry.

As always, I prove to be the exception to this rule. I have serious issues and have had them for years, and no woman would come near me. So I have to disagree with you here.

Now I don't drink and they still cry.

As human beings, women must also have a feeling of sadness that makes them want to cry. And as social creature women also need someone who can listen to them, someone who could be a place sharing what in their hearts, someone who could be a shoulder to cry on.

Many men know about it, and some men see it as an opportunity to get sympathy from those women. Then they come to a woman, offer sympathy and hope she will then give sympathy as well, and eventually love. But they forget, what a woman need in this moment is someone who can be a friend who does not expect anything from her.

Of course, if someone comes to the bar, offer a sympathy to a crying woman and shows a 'hopeful face' to get her, she will regard this man as an alien from Planet Zog who tries to take advantage of opportunity. And she will not give a response, of course.

Just kidding.

And woman determine who can be a friend for sharing. She will not choose a man who expect something from her, and she will not choose a stranger. But she will choose a man who can be a best friend who does not expect anything from her. What she need in a time like this is just friendship. Uniquely, then usually she will fall in love with this man.

But what brother Ramadhan said is different. that is "motherly", an instinct that every woman has although in different level. Motherly is an instinct that makes women feel they need to do something to someone who close to them.

There is a time when a woman need someone to listen to her crying, there is a time when the motherly makes a woman feel she need to rescue someone who close to her. But these times will never come simultaneously.

Relationship between me and my wife was started from friendship like this. But I do not suggest brothers who want to marry to follow my story. And actually, husband and wife can be a couple of best friend.

 

[ardianto]

Do men really make the fuss about the girl being beautiful or is it the families? I thought it was both families who made these statements???

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If those families make statement, this girl is beautiful, but in the eye of the guy who will marry, this girl is not beautiful, this girl still not beautiful and not automatically being beautiful.

But, why you ask about it ?.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

hmm that sounds like a rather pakistani/indian statement .."weddings are fantastic events, they give one the opportunity to ogle at females of all kinds, who're done in layers of makeup and jewellery, in a mixed Un-islamic gathering, " could be right for some, but the best places to find good girls and boys, where you also get to know some part of their nature, are religious gatherings, and or some kind of a social work event. If, offcorse the inclination to religion does matter to one.
Agree very much here.

Not necessarily..every single single-guy I know, religious or otherwise, if he's invited to a wedding keeps an eye out just in case he finds a girl he likes, even if the set up at the wedding is for the most part separate. It's a good place to find one. How is that wrong? It's simply an avenue for him to find a wife. If a person is seriously looking to get married, he's allowed to look as per the hadeeth of Jaabir (ra) anyway.