Gay Couples are to be Allowed to Marry in Churches.

[GuestFellow]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

For those unfamiliar with American slang, a few definitions:

Fag - short for faggot - is a pejorative term and common homophobic slur used chiefly in North America against homosexual males. Its pejorative use has spread from the United States to varying extents elsewhere in the English-speaking world through mass culture, including movies, music, and the Internet.

Dyke - slang terminology referring to a lesbian or lesbianism. It originated as a derogatory label for a masculine or butch woman, and this usage still exists. However, some attempt to use it in a manner they see as positive, or simply as a neutral synonym for lesbian.To some extent the word has been reappropriated.

But these terms are offensive...

North America an offensive term for a gay man (slang)

An offensive term for a lesbian (slang)

^ Definitions from Microsoft Dictionary, there were other definitions but not relevant to the topic.

What do we actually achieve from using these terms?

 

[جوري]

I disagree there. There are Muslims that commit serious sins such as rape and murder. These Muslims, however, are still Muslim but not very good ones.

You're entitled to disagree, however homosexuality isn't recognized in Islam as such you can't be both homosexual and a practicing Muslim.. you'd be a fasiq/fasid.. there is always room for repentance but until repentance is sincere and accepted by Allah swt you're pretty much living on the outside of what Islamic tenets. Again, one can't be a practicing homosexual and a practicing Muslim.
It is like being an honest and a cheat at the same time.. how can you be two contradictions at once?

and Allah swt knows best

 

[Tyrion]

You're entitled to disagree, however homosexuality isn't recognized in Islam as such you can't be both homosexual and a practicing Muslim.. you'd be a fasiq/fasid.. there is always room for repentance but until repentance is sincere and accepted by Allah swt you're pretty much living on the outside of what Islamic tenets. Again, one can't be a practicing homosexual and a practicing Muslim.
It is like being an honest and a cheat at the same time.. how can you be two contradictions at once?

and Allah swt knows best

But wouldn't that take all sinners (like you and me) out of the fold of Islam? Or are you saying that they'd still (technically) be Muslims, just really bad non practicing ones? I'm a bit confused as to what you're really saying, since earlier you said homosexuals can't be Muslims (at all), and now you're saying they can't be practicing Muslims...

Did you by any chance take a look at the video I posted? It's fairly short, and I'd be interested to see your response to it.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

What do we actually achieve from using these terms?

What we achieve is a sense of distaste and disapproval that is lost in the use of non-offensive terms like 'gay'. This is meant to counteract the sense of acceptance and approval I detected in the post that I had replied to. The intention is to not use watered down terms for what is sinful much like using 'committing adultery' instead of 'having an affair' or to call someone an 'adulterer' instead of a 'cheater'.

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

You're entitled to disagree, however homosexuality isn't recognized in Islam as such you can't be both homosexual and a practicing Muslim.. you'd be a fasiq/fasid.. there is always room for repentance but until repentance is sincere and accepted by Allah swt you're pretty much living on the outside of what Islamic tenets. Again, one can't be a practicing homosexual and a practicing Muslim.
It is like being an honest and a cheat at the same time.. how can you be two contradictions at once?

and Allah swt knows best

I agree, you cannot be a practicing Muslim if your practicing homosexuality. I understand what you meant now.

 

[MustafaMc]

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah observed: The fornicator who fornicates is not a believer so long as he commits it and no thief who steals is a believer as long as he commits theft, and no drunkard who drinks wine is a believer as long as he drinks it.

Is there any question but that a person in a homosexual relationship is also a fornicator and that he commits a sexual act that is forbidden even between a man and his wife? As has been said by others it is an oxymoron for one to be a "Gay Muslim".

An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms.

 

[Tyrion]

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah observed: The fornicator who fornicates is not a believer so long as he commits it and no thief who steals is a believer as long as he commits theft, and no drunkard who drinks wine is a believer as long as he drinks it.

Is there any question but that a person in a homosexual relationship is also a fornicator and that he commits a sexual act that is forbidden even between a man and his wife? As has been said by others it is an oxymoron for one to be a "Gay Muslim".

An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms.

Did you watch the video I posted? The speaker mentions another Hadith that seems to suggest something else...

 

[جوري]

But wouldn't that take all sinners (like you and me) out of the fold of Islam? Or are you saying that they'd still (technically) be Muslims, just really bad non practicing ones? I'm a bit confused as to what you're really saying, since earlier you said homosexuals can't be Muslims (at all), and now you're saying they can't be practicing Muslims... Did you by any chance take a look at the video I posted? It's fairly short, and I'd be interested to see your response to it.

I didn't watch the video no.. and there are gradations of sins (so even if you consider them Muslims or they consider themselves Muslims, they aren't Muslims anymore than a7madis are, it is in the definition of the word (submitting ones will to God) can you still be a Muslim by the very meaning of the word if you're living outside the folds of Islam? not Muslim at all = non practicing Muslim it is just semantics since what differentiates a Muslim from a kaffr is salaat (and also by its definition means relation to God) can you have a relation with God if you're living outside of the folds of his religion?
I don't really need to watch a video for that.. I don't need to rearrange the words to make this abomination by all Abrahamic religions into something less abominable!
and I don't really care to ride on the political correctness band wagon..
if one thing you should really watch is the story of barsisa

the devil won't dress in red and come to you with something that you'll find frankly wrong.. it will try every portal including appealing to your emotionality and humanness.. little by little until it completely possesses your soul.. but as we know that , "What is lawful is clear and what is unlawful is clear, but between them are certain doubtful things which many people do not recognise. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and his honour blameless, but he who falls into doubtful things falls into what is unlawful, just as a shepherd who pastures his animals round a national reserve will soon pasture them in it. Every king has a reserve and God's reserve is the things He has declared unlawful." (Bukhari and Muslim).

 

[MustafaMc]

Did you watch the video I posted?

Yes I did. I mostly agreed with what he said in principle, but I disagree with him in his direct contradiction of the hadith that I quoted above. Yet I agree with him when he says that he does not see a place in Islam for homosexual acts or behavior as being permissible and acceptable and that we should not make a place for homosexuality any more than we should for adultery. He makes a point of accepting a believer with homosexual tendencies as making a place for someone with a ‘problem’, but that we should not accept those who want to redefine what is acceptable behavior in Islam.


From my perspective the modern tendency to handle homosexuality lightly is a general reflection on the general moral decay in society. If someone has these tendencies and occasionally "falls off the wagon" then he should keep both to himself and repent to Allah (swt). He should not broadcast his sin nor demand that he has the right to 'marry' his 'partner' and practice this deviant lifestyle openly.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

I think the overriding issue for me in this thread is that - whatever our views on homosexuality may be - the gay community is here to stay! The times when gay people were afraid to come out and be honest about their sexuality and themselves are over, and in my view that is a positive thing.

Does this mean you don't think anyone practicing homosexual acts living sinful life?

Gay people coming out in religious communities, even strict religious communities, just shows that they are gathering strength and confidence and self-respect.

This is an oxymoron.
How can they be religiously strict AND practicing homosexuals?

Unless, homosexual acts is not considered sinful.

Hence, we go back to asking you:

Do YOU think homosexual acts is sinful?

I need to get clarification because you have been very vague, because in another thread about salvation in christianity, you wrote:

but I have yet to meet a Christian who thinks that all you have to say is 'I believe' ... and then you can continue in your sinful ways as before ...

So it's either you lied or are disingenous, or you think that homosexual acts are absolutely not sinful.

So, whatever the outcome and whatever out personal stance, we as religious communities have to get our heads around this, and learn to deal with our homosexual friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way.

Does this mean you will also learn to deal with your thieving friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way?
Does this mean you will also learn to deal with your rapists friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way?
Does this mean you will also learn to deal with your paedophile friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way?
Does this mean you will also learn to deal with your serial murderer friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way?
Does this mean you will also learn to deal with your serial corruptor-dictator (like mubarak) friends/neighbours/brothers and sisters in a loving, caring and respectful way?

 

[Tyrion]

I didn't watch the video no.. and there are gradations of sins (so even if you consider them Muslims or they consider themselves Muslims, they aren't Muslims anymore than a7madis are, it is in the definition of the word (submitting ones will to God) can you still be a Muslim by the very meaning of the word if you're living outside the folds of Islam? not Muslim at all = non practicing Muslim it is just semantics since what differentiates a Muslim from a kaffr is salaat (and also by its definition means relation to God) can you have a relation with God if you're living outside of the folds of his religion?
I don't really need to watch a video for that.. I don't need to rearrange the words to make this abomination by all Abrahamic religions into something less abominable!
and I don't really care to ride on the political correctness band wagon..
if one thing you should really watch is the story of barsisa

the devil won't dress in red and come to you with something that you'll find frankly wrong.. it will try every portal including appealing to your emotionality and humanness.. little by little until it completely possesses your soul.. but as we know that , "What is lawful is clear and what is unlawful is clear, but between them are certain doubtful things which many people do not recognise. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and his honour blameless, but he who falls into doubtful things falls into what is unlawful, just as a shepherd who pastures his animals round a national reserve will soon pasture them in it. Every king has a reserve and God's reserve is the things He has declared unlawful." (Bukhari and Muslim).

I suppose I see what you're saying, but I still think its a tad bit too strict. It seems like from what you're saying, anyone who sins cannot be a Muslim. (if we just go by definitions...) I'm in no way saying homosexual acts are any less reprehensible in Islam, but I just think we need to be careful when we take away the title of "Muslim" from a person... We can just agree to disagree I guess.

Oh, I enjoyed the video though. Very interesting and beneficial story.

 

[Aprender]

I didn't watch the video no.. and there are gradations of sins (so even if you consider them Muslims or they consider themselves Muslims, they aren't Muslims anymore than a7madis are, it is in the definition of the word (submitting ones will to God) can you still be a Muslim by the very meaning of the word if you're living outside the folds of Islam? not Muslim at all = non practicing Muslim it is just semantics since what differentiates a Muslim from a kaffr is salaat (and also by its definition means relation to God) can you have a relation with God if you're living outside of the folds of his religion?
I don't really need to watch a video for that.. I don't need to rearrange the words to make this abomination by all Abrahamic religions into something less abominable!
and I don't really care to ride on the political correctness band wagon..
if one thing you should really watch is the story of barsisa

the devil won't dress in red and come to you with something that you'll find frankly wrong.. it will try every portal including appealing to your emotionality and humanness.. little by little until it completely possesses your soul.. but as we know that , "What is lawful is clear and what is unlawful is clear, but between them are certain doubtful things which many people do not recognise. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and his honour blameless, but he who falls into doubtful things falls into what is unlawful, just as a shepherd who pastures his animals round a national reserve will soon pasture them in it. Every king has a reserve and God's reserve is the things He has declared unlawful." (Bukhari and Muslim).

Thanks for the video. It was very enlightening

 

[Lynx]

1- Lower life expectancy than the rest of the population independent of HIV although not excluding it. (depression, substance abuse, suicide)
2- higher rate of anal fissures than the rest of the population (although I did say I'd not make this an object of comparison)
3- higher rate of anal cancer http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20000531/gay-men-should-be-checked-for-anal-cancer-experts-say
4-non-epidemic Kaposi' sarcoma independent of HIV exclusively in gay/bisexual men http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6116083
5-Polyamory in a same-sex setting Polyamory is "a well-accepted part of gay subculture", although "often viewed by some therapists as problematic";[37] somewhere between 30%[38] and 67%[39] of men in male couples report being in a sexually non-monogamous relationship. According to Coleman & Rosser (1996), "although a majority of male couples are not sexually exclusive, they are in fact emotionally monogamous."[40] Shernoff states that:

One of the biggest differences between male couples and mixed sex couples is that many, but by no means all within the gay community have an easier acceptance of sexual nonexclusivity than does heterosexual society in general [....] Research confirms that nonmonogamy in and of itself does not create a problem for male couples when it has been openly negotiated.[41] Source

​

6-Pneumocystis carinii, Cryptococcus neoformans http://www.annals.org/content/96/6/700.full.pdf
7-Giardia lamblia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1045343/
8-"Children of homosexuals more apt to be homosexuals: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7907017

We could be here all day but I think the most important disappointment of all living outside of God's grace and laws.

all the best

either you don't realize that if most A's result in B's it does not prove that all A's result in B's in which case you are logically challenged

OR

you find nothing wrong with any of the homosexual relationships that have not resulted in any of the consequences you've mentioned.

Which is it?

 

[Ramadhan]

The one thing that sets apart "gay muslims" from other sinful muslims (as we all are) is that "gay muslims" (who are proud of their homosexuality and continue to engage in homosexual acts) do not believe that their acts are sinful.
(please note that I differentiated between muslims that have homosexual tendencies but chose not to submit to their lust, and homosexual muslims who do - hence the term "gay muslim")

You may get muslims who are thieves, liars, backbiters, drinkers, adulterers, but do they truly believe that their acts are not sinful?

 

[جوري]

either you don't realize that if most A's result in B's it does not prove that all A's result in B's in which case you are logically challenged

OR

you find nothing wrong with any of the homosexual relationships that have not resulted in any of the consequences you've mentioned.

Which is it?

Any consummated homosexual relationship would result in at least one thing I have mentioned or numerous that I haven't!

all the best

 

[glo]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

I don't see why we have to be accepting of someone who is openly living a sinful life. Would you feel that way about a pedophile or a rapist living next door?

Hi Mustafa

I didn't say we have to accept people's sinful lifestyles. But we have to accept that gay people exist and are part of our communities - and as faith communities we are called to find ways of living with others peacefully and in friendship.

I cannot equate homosexuals with paedophiles and rapists. The latter pose a risk to children and women, the first simply want to live a peaceful life with the partner of their choice.

I am repulsed by the idea of getting to know what 'goes on in the head' of a fag or a dyke.

I know. I can tell your strength of feeling by the wording you have chosen.

I used to be pretty strongly against homosexuality - until I read some heart-breaking accounts of the treatment gay people receive from the rest of society (especially religious groups!), how some have tried desperately to rid themselves of this 'sinful disease' and ruined their lives and those of others along the way, and how some live with the guilt and shame forever.
Some of my best friends left their husbands and entered into lesbian relationships, and I was able to observe how it changed them and affected them.
That's what I mean by learning to see life from the perspective of others. When you hear people's stories and understand their journey and their hardships, then it becomes much harder to judge them harshly and to feel hateful towards them ...

I know these are emotive topics, Mustafa.
I don't expect you or anybody else to agree with me.
I am saddened by how hateful threads about homosexuality often turn out, and I wonder why they do - given that our religions call us to be kind and caring and forgiving towards each other.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

didn't say we have to accept people's sinful lifestyles.

Hi Glo,

can you please answer my question at post #170?
thanks.

 

[Lynx]

Any consummated homosexual relationship would result in at least one thing I have mentioned or numerous that I haven't!

all the best

and none of your links prove that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

They have to choose one or the other
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And here is yet another common misconception about homosexuals; that sexual orientation is a choice. Do you really think that homosexuals CHOOSE to be attracted to the same gender? And do you think that a man who is attracted only to other men but doesn't act on it and takes a wife to try to hide it or deny it, isn't homosexual?

If you think that homosexuality is a choice then I have to ask, did you choose to be heterosexual? Were you capable of being homosexual? If so, you have latent bisexual tendencies. Not all of us do.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

From what I have heard, homosexuality has been documented in the animal kingdom

Correct

but I remember my science teacher telling the class that animals have no control over their sexual urges (not sure if it is true)

You are right to doubt such a baseless claim. How could your science teacher possibly know that? Given that its a science teacher, I'd immediately call them on that. Too often people try to claim "only humans do this" and "only humans feel that". Sometimes we have data to back it up, but more often it is just human arrogance.