Gaza doctors say Israeli shell killed Reuters cameraman

[Keltoi]

Why would the IDF intentionally target journalists? To cover up the "truth"? How would targeting journalists who have cameras pointed at them work in their favor? If journalists want to put themselves in the line of fire while a battle is going on, they should know the danger involved. Soldiers are not going to put their own lives or the lives of their comrades in danger because there are media types running around enemy positions.

 

[Gator]

My feeling is that the guys in the tank didn't know who it was. They were far away, probably on thermal imaging in Palestinian territory. They saw this guy with something on his shoulder (RPGish) standing with other guys and took them out.

There was no battle and no trench. the only shot was from the tank (though the limited amount of tape time couldn't be conclusive). Militants don't sit in trenches firing at a tank that's got the superior position waiting to get to get blown away.

The israelis are NOT out to eliminate the palestinian people or kill indiscriminatly. The IDF feel they are striking back at valid targets and given the cowardly actions of Hamas militants firing from positions close to civilians, they seem to be justified and there's a lot of innocent people killed. As far as the tank crew was concerned it could have been a militant with an RPG.

But then again it could have been 12 year olds playing soccer and one kid picks up a branch to get it off the field and they are wiped out. The threshold to really identify your target appears to be pretty low sometimes.

 

[Muezzin]

Muez, I was a soldier. I know the risks of assaulting a trenchline.
If you are receiving gunfire from a position, you do not "Fight fair and with honour" by drawing sabers and charging at them. You just take them out with a airbust.

I was Artillery myself, so I know the amount of target recognition and clearence to fire needed. The Israeli army has similar ROE, (wether it sticks to em , i dont know).
Looking at that vidio from a proffesional's veiwpoint, I see a military position, well dug in, a tank on the hill opposite and a cameraman in the open directly behind.
Any attempt to put this particular incident as an example of Jewish callous- slaughter fails on every level possible.
If Flechette rounds should be banned then so should high explosive, and then, because people might get hurt, so should rifles, then can we get rid of rocks please because they might get thrown. It dosn't work. War is a horrible deverstating foul thing. Trying to sanitise it by equiping everyone with swords wont work. It never did.

Um, I'm not suggesting replacing modern equipment with swords (unless of course they're lightsabers). I'm simply talking about proportionality. I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Unless they're something like 'may the Force be with you' or 'I'm Batman'. But strawmen? Nah. I always preferred the Tin Man myself.

But anyway, you see one guy, and think it's proportionate to shoot a flechette at him?

Perhaps some rogue Israeli troops have indeed delibertly killed palastinian civilians. I have never met them to get a measure of what they are like. I however ask why, if genocide is their game, why is there a single palastinian still alive?

Kindly tell me where I suggested they are genocidal. All I have said is that this was disproportionate.

In this instance , no its not a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's a poor foolish reporter standing in the line of fire between a Tank and a trenchline, thinking that a body armour protects against flechettes.

From your soldier's point of view, yes. From us meek civilians' point of view, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[Keltoi]

Using a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" is sort of the point in military terms.

 

[Muezzin]

So maybe the military should be a little bit more careful as to which nuts they're targetting.

Note I said 'which' not 'whose'.

 

[barney]

Um, I'm not suggesting replacing modern equipment with swords (unless of course they're lightsabers). I'm simply talking about proportionality. I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Unless they're something like 'may the Force be with you' or 'I'm Batman'. But strawmen? Nah. I always preferred the Tin Man myself.

But anyway, you see one guy, and think it's proportionate to shoot a flechette at him?


Kindly tell me where I suggested they are genocidal. All I have said is that this was disproportionate.


From your soldier's point of view, yes. From us meek civilians' point of view, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

OMG! That will teach me to type whilst hammered.
Sorry muzz. My bad.
I meant Gator. having said that I pretty much agree in some aspects with gators last post.

Sincere apologies for the typo. Let this be a warning to evryone on the bad effects of carlsberg.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.

 

[Keltoi]

Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.

The term "right to exist" is directly related to Hamas, because in their charter it states their goal is the destruction of Israel. From the standpoint of Israel, it doesn't really matter if the intention is to "exterminate" the Israeli people or to "change the regime and system of governance"...I'm afraid the differences here aren't that intricate. Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, a terrorist organization that continues to fire rockets into Israeli territory on a daily basis. The "right to exist" goes hand in hand with Hamas ceasing terrorist operations and the firing of rockets.

It doesn't matter if Abbas and company sign off on a peace deal if Hamas refuses to recognize it and continue their attacks. Therefore requiring Hamas to recognize Israeli's right to exist is exactly the point.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.

Very good question. Israel hasn't "tried to get peace."
For example, Hamas observed a truce for year and a half, Israel refused to accept it and continued to carry out assassinations, bombings and illegally cutoff funds.

It simply isn't accurate to claim that Israel "values humans and lives of others." Israel continues to commit atrocities. Israel continues its takeover, annexation and cantonization programs. Israel did NOT try "to give the Palestinians there a good life." Israel turned Gaza into "one big Prison." See B’Tselem's report about the continued strangulation of the Gaza.

"Although Israel withdrew from Gaza more than a year ago, its control over the lives of Palestinians there is in some ways even tighter than before, a new report by an Israeli human rights organisation says"
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/gaza-strangled.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6270331.stm
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Gaza_Status.asp

Whoever is telling you that "Israel always tried to get peace" is lying to you. They are not being honest about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. The 9th commandment says, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

 

[Keltoi]

There are plenty of atrocities to go around from both sides. Palestinians playing the innocent victims of Israeli aggression isn't going to fly. You can thank Hamas for that.

 

[SATalha]

I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?

 

[Keltoi]

I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?

It has nothing to do with "Zionism", it is about the possibility of a peace deal. A peace deal will not and cannot occur without assurances from Hamas than their attacks will cease and that they will openly recognize the state of Israel. If not, who exactly is Israel supposed to make peace with?

 

[SATalha]

Oh its got everything to do with Zionism, since the birth of it! The rhetoric of people like Theodor Herzl and his ideas still run deeply within the Isreali guvernment. This mentality of destroying the Palestinina people and taking over their lands. Tell me how many settlements have gone up this years? And Isreal wants peace!! what a pathetic ecxuse, they are giving the Palestinians more and more reasons to fight and fight they shall.

 

[Keltoi]

Oh its got everything to do with Zionism, since the birth of it! The rhetoric of people like Theodor Herzl and his ideas still run deeply within the Isreali guvernment. This mentality of destroying the Palestinina people and taking over their lands. Tell me how many settlements have gone up this years? And Isreal wants peace!! what a pathetic ecxuse, they are giving the Palestinians more and more reasons to fight and fight they shall.

If Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people they better get started soon...

As for settlements, why should Israel make concessions in the face of Hamas attacks? It isn't politically possible to move settlements when Hamas continues to send suicide attackers and rockets. It would seen as giving in to terrorist strategies, which Israel will not do. A peace deal is very possible, but it requires Hamas to make concessions as well.

 

[Fishman]

I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?

Insulting people doesn't help you win arguments, it just makes you feel better...

 

[SATalha]

Insulting people doesn't help you win arguments, it just makes you feel better...

yeah your right....but i dont feel better....no insults intended. It was just an opinion Akhi

 

[Fishman]

yeah your right....but i dont feel better....no insults intended. It was just an opinion Akhi

That wasn't really meant as a personal thing, I was just saying that if you insult people or lavel them in an argument, it makes you feel that you are more right than them.

 

[barney]

If Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people they better get started soon...

As for settlements, why should Israel make concessions in the face of Hamas attacks? It isn't politically possible to move settlements when Hamas continues to send suicide attackers and rockets. It would seen as giving in to terrorist strategies, which Israel will not do. A peace deal is very possible, but it requires Hamas to make concessions as well.

Unfortunatly Hamas need the Big Bad Zion just as much as the PLO and Black September ever did. So they will keep attacking, keep up the old enemy when peace is a simple matter.
They have to keep the palastinians looking the other way for their problems otherwise they would cease to exist.

 

[Keltoi]

Unfortunatly Hamas need the Big Bad Zion just as much as the PLO and Black September ever did. So they will keep attacking, keep up the old enemy when peace is a simple matter.
They have to keep the palastinians looking the other way for their problems otherwise they would cease to exist.

I agree, that was never more apparent than when Arafat was calling the shots.

 

[barney]

Its a microscopic version of lots of other Arab states. The government can be as rrepressive and dictatorial as they want. People can get shot or flogged or put in mental hospitals or prison for speaking out, but it's all fine. Why? Well because theyre a god-fearing muslim government, or pretending to be, and they condem the Zionists who have caused all the peoples suffering.

Thousands of starving Iraqi's and their infant mortality rate show how much this campaign works. Who did the Iraqi's rage against in the ninetys. The Guy who was starving them? Or the Zionist conspiricy? Clue it begins with a Z and a C.