God's Law in OT

[dagsky]

I hope that i can get some help here on issues regarding Christainity and Islam. I have many questions to ask but i'll put them all one by one!

Ok a friend of mine debate our religions and every now and again i get stuck with some of his claims and don't know how to answer them so hopefully you'll be able to guide me.

At the moment we are debating on the abolosihng of the laws in christianity, when Jesus came he said that he had not come to abolish the laws but rather to fulfill them. Now apparently they were 2 different laws, the law of God and the law of Moses. (clarification needed as i'm not sure on this)

According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?

 

[dagsky]

has no one got a resonse for me?

 

[Civilsed]

I hope that i can get some help here on issues regarding Christainity and Islam. I have many questions to ask but i'll put them all one by one!

Ok a friend of mine debate our religions and every now and again i get stuck with some of his claims and don't know how to answer them so hopefully you'll be able to guide me.

At the moment we are debating on the abolosihng of the laws in christianity, when Jesus came he said that he had not come to abolish the laws but rather to fulfill them. Now apparently they were 2 different laws, the law of God and the law of Moses. (clarification needed as i'm not sure on this)

According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?

Jesus (AS) indeed came to reaffirm the the law/religion of Allah. Moses (AS) did not have laws that differed to Allah, rather implemented Allah's law.

You are correct that Paul did away with certain aspects if the religion.

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

yes you are correct its Paul who does away with those law - Jesus pbuh himself was circumcised and didnt eat pork - he was in other words a Jew but was reforming the Jews who had become too strict.

peace

 

[Joe98]

Christians live according to the teachings of Christ in the new testament

The old testament is a bit like a history of what went before.

If you want to find fault with christanity you need to find fault with the teachings of Christ.

The teachings of Christ can be summarised in one word. "Love"

Any question you have about Christianity, apply the word "Love" and you have the answer.
-

 

[coddles76]

According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?

Christianity is All about his death more than anything else, It's what he sacrificed for the sinful human that is of importance to the christian. What law he came to uphold is not as important as the actual sacrifice. So really your discussion with your friend should be more pointed towards these points and not on what laws he came to uphold or not, Christians don't put much concentration on the other points, the essence is in his sacrificial death.
Hope this helps.

 

[wth1257]

Christians live according to the teachings of Christ in the new testament

The old testament is a bit like a history of what went before.

If you want to find fault with christanity you need to find fault with the teachings of Christ.

The teachings of Christ can be summarised in one word. "Love"

Any question you have about Christianity, apply the word "Love" and you have the answer.
-

How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?

The Old Testament is not simply history disconnected from the NT. Christ is the fufilment of the Old Covenant. That is what he means by saying he did not come to abolish the law but fufil it. Although this means that Christians are no longer bound to offer holocausts and such the OT is still part of the organic whole of God's revelation to man.


As I understand it.

 

[Follower]

Many do not understand the brillance of Paul. Without the Law men did not know that they were sinning. Increases in the law show how much more unrighteous we are. None can follow the Law completely and so by the Law we are condemned.

What is in your heart does not depend on whether you follow the law - are circumsized or not. In fact if you are circumsized and it makes you feel superior over the next man and you think you are righteous then following the Law is actually working against you.

This is the same as any of the Laws- not eating pork- if it makes you think you are better then another then it is having the negative affect on your soul.

Jesus mentions the 2 most important Laws-
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

 

[Follower]

"How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?"

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[wth1257]

"How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?"

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

How does that answer the question?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Joe98;

Thanks for your summing up of Christianity; your explanation is very close to my beliefs. Christ, love and forgiveness are at the heart of Christianity but I would expand on that just a little.

All the law and prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, and you could compare these commandments to a hook to hang your coat on. Without the hook, the coat falls on the floor, likewise when we fail to live our lives by the greatest commandments, Christianity falls on the floor for us.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wth1257;

How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ

I just trust that God exists fully and totally and he created the universe and life; I haven’t a clue how or why it all came about. In the same way I just trust that in substance the Eucharist for me becomes Christ’s body and blood, how it happens is beyond my understanding.

while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?

sorry I am not sure what you mean.

As I understand it.

So much seems beyond my understanding, I look at the great faith my Muslim brothers and sisters have, and their faith is from the same God who gave me my faith.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God.

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

The new testament is actually not all love and roses as some Christians may have you believe. The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire.

 

[wth1257]

The new testament is actually not all love and roses as some Christians may have you believe. The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire.

`

That's a nice narrative Hitchens spins out. Few who buy that line question hos such a "barbaric" and "novel" innovation could be so smoothly accecpted in the Jewish reform movement which emerged into Christianity from a religious tradition that apparently had no idea of the concept.

In related news, Hitchens is full of both himself and "it".

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.

After our death, hell will be knowing that God exists fully and totally, and then having to face up to all the bad stuff in our past life. If God is a condemning God, then we should fear God.

Fear of God is the start of wisdom, because to fear him means we start to take note of what he is saying.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire

Hell will be of our own making, and it will separate us from God, at that point we shall know that God exists fully and totally.

In the spirit of searching for a just and loving God

Eric

 

[Follower]

Are you asking "How does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?"

The spoken words by the Minister,Pastor, Priest consecrate the bread and wine.

Some believe that the wine and bread actually changes in substance, some believe that while still bread and wine the blood and body of Christ is in, with and under the bread and wine. Some believe it is merely a symbol and does not change from the bread and wine.

All believe it is food for the soul.

 

[bibleblevr]

In Judaism, the law the lord gave his people, although perfect and a wonderful gift served only to condemn them because they could not live up to it's standards. Jesus fulfilled the law because we followed it perfectly and did not sin but died to the pay the penalty for sin. the law is two parts; the statement of what not to do and by making the statement it creates a "sin" Jesus eliminated the Bite of sin and thereby nullified the law. This is a great question and has very complicated implications, It is essential to be a christian and have the Holy Spirit in you heart in order to have a hope of truly grasping all of what Jesus did.

As for the law of Moses and the law of God they are one in the same, but some laws like not eating pork were so Jews would not get sick from them. God wasn't going to tell them about microorganisms so he just said its dirty. Those type of laws changed with Paul's vision because of safer practices.

 

[Pygoscelis]

`

That's a nice narrative Hitchens spins out.

Who is Hitchens?

Few who buy that line question hos such a "barbaric" and "novel" innovation could be so smoothly accecpted in the Jewish reform movement which emerged into Christianity from a religious tradition that apparently had no idea of the concept.

Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Are you asking "How does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?"

The spoken words by the Minister,Pastor, Priest consecrate the bread and wine.

Some believe that the wine and bread actually changes in substance, some believe that while still bread and wine the blood and body of Christ is in, with and under the bread and wine. Some believe it is merely a symbol and does not change from the bread and wine.

All believe it is food for the soul.

Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.

I wonder if this proper treatment that they want only applies until you put it in your mouth.

I wonder what they think about the "body of Christ" being dissolved by someone's saliva and covered with germs from their mouth then ending up digested you know where.