God's means of communication

[M.I.A.]

Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?

i remember what happened yesterday but i do not know what will happen tomorrow.
i believe up until your dying breath there is hope, a persons entire viewpoint can change in the blink of an eye if allah so wills.

morality is subjective, some people save the cat in the tree and end up chopping down the whole forrest.

allah swt knows best and the truth of all that we did in this life is with god alone.

 

[aadil77]

If God is all powerful then he did not have to make the message so cryptic and resort to ancient tomes and human messengers.He didn't have to resort to human language at all, and could haev simply made us all know what he wishes us to know. We would then have the free will to make the informed decision to either follow him or rebel against him.

Again, if we all had knowledge of the truth from the start - most of us would probably believe in it, making no room for personal choice.

That he did not do this shows that he intended the religious confusion and tension that we have in the world, Atheists against Theist, Christian against Muslim, Suni against Shia, etc. My question is why.

Islamic belief is pretty clear and stands out well from all other religions, I don't see what 'religious confusion' you're talking about. You just need to do your research, look past all the crap that you hear and come to a honest decision.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Again, if we all had knowledge of the truth from the start - most of us would probably believe in it, making no room for personal choice.

But personal choice in what? Personal choice to believe something you don't? Or personal choice to obey and follow God presuming that you already believe he exists and know what he demands of you?

Islamic belief is pretty clear and stands out well from all other religions

What religion does not claim the same? I know that you honestly believe Islam is different and special, but that is how everybody else feels about their religions too.

You just need to do your research, look past all the crap that you hear and come to a honest decision.

I have and I have reached a very different conclusion than you have. So has Grace Seeker, and he's reached yet another conclusion. So has Trumble, and he has reached yet another. Then there are Hindus, Jews, etc. All are seeking earnestly and looking past what they believe to be crap they hear and all come to honest conclusions. Yet everybody's conclusion, even within a given religion, seems to be a little bit different than everybody elses. That is the confusion.

 

[aadil77]

I have and I have reached a very different conclusion than you have. So has Grace Seeker, and he's reached yet another conclusion. So has Trumble, and he has reached yet another. Then there are Hindus, Jews, etc. All are seeking earnestly and looking past what they believe to be crap they hear and all come to honest conclusions. Yet everybody's conclusion, even within a given religion, seems to be a little bit different than everybody elses. That is the confusion.

You do know that not everyone is meant to be muslim, that there are will always be believers and disbelievers? This is why heaven and hell were created - there will be inhabitants in both places.

You say you and others have come to an honest conclusion, but why then are you here asking such questions, if you are set in your beliefs then you shouldn't really have the need to dwell on issues like this. I can't judge and say how genuine/sincere/honest you and others are, only god knows that - so we can't say for certain that everyone has come to honest conclusions. I believe only following the truth can bring true inner contempt and satisfaction, without any intention to boast - this is what I feel this inside me, can you say the same? (you don't have to answer this question)

 

[Pygoscelis]

You do know that not everyone is meant to be muslim, that there are will always be believers and disbelievers? This is why heaven and hell were created - there will be inhabitants in both places.

It is your view that Allah creates some of us intending us to go to hell? He doesn't want everybody to be saved?

 

[Ramadhan]

He doesn't want everybody to be saved?

Have you ever thought that maybe Allah wanted you to be saved by sending you to Islamic board and learn about His message and then submit to him?
At the end, you have a freewill to submit and reject Him. It is up to you.
Had we all been forced to submit to Him, He would have created robots or cyborgs instead of human.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Have you ever thought that maybe Allah wanted you to be saved by sending you to Islamic board and learn about His message and then submit to him?

No more that such a thing has occurred to me when I visit the Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Scientologist boards.

At the end, you have a freewill to submit and reject Him.

Not really. I don't have that choice to make any more than you have the choice to make to submit to or reject Odin or Zeus. You have to believe such beings exist before you can make such decisions.

It is up to you.
Had we all been forced to submit to Him, He would have created robots or cyborgs instead of human.

But not had we all been forced to know he exists. Then we would all truly have the choice you mention above.

 

[جوري]

Jewish, or Scientologist boards.

I'd have to say that statement is very untruthful..firstly Jews don't accept converts and are closed to themselves and Scientology well I guess with them you can catch a tax break.. there are no 'souls' to be saved you return back to the battery that charged you up.. I however never felt your purpose here was for any other reason than overt trolling..

all the best

 

[Pygoscelis]

I however never felt your purpose here was for any other reason than overt trolling..
all the best

Pot meet kettle.

 

[جوري]

Pot meet kettle.

Not at all-- I have no cause to troll on an Islamic forum while asserting the same puerile points of 'spaghetti and tea pots' for almost half a decade.. it is really sad for your own person that you have gained nothing at all from your very protracted stay here!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

I agree with Vale lily - You've been here for a very long time - Yet you keep coming back even though your preety dead set on a particular viewpoint. You've clearly made your mind up - thats very little to actually talk about on the topic with a person who already knows the conclusion.

 

[IAmZamzam]

And you still haven't told me what your goal is or whether you're forming an argument or an inquiry.

 

[aamirsaab]

The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?

I think God chose to relay His message through human examples so we could understand it better. Not to sound like a troll., but I am not fluent in the diction of Giraffe or Chicken. In fact, I'm not sure anyone in the world is.

If we all simply knew he existed and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't reject or rebel against something that doesn't exist).

If we all simply knew a lot of things life would be a whole lot easier, I'm sure you will agree However I think the purpose of the so called religion puzzle is actually part and parcel of the test. We're supposed to be strive to be good people as well as having a belief in Allah. Doing one makes the other much easier and I think this is what is being left out with your analysis. That's why the puzzle doesn't make sense to yourself and many other athiests.

Another way of looking at it is to look at the journey and not the destination.

 

[IAmZamzam]

God is concerned with our intentions, our efforts, not our intellectual accuracy. The scriptures have said this time and again. It's not about solving some danged puzzle. It's about our choices.

 

[Insaanah]

Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language (can a divine message even be put into human words?). Surely he didn't need to rely on human messengers or "prophets". An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that.

If God made you know what He wanted you to know (in the way that you are implying), I wonder what the chances are that you would have said, "But God, I need a human example to show me how to apply this, I need a book with it written down that I can read at my own leisure."

What you're saying here actually isn't anything new. Even the non-Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said things along similar lines:

"Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels? ..." (Qur'an 2:210)

Then there would be no choice. You would be compelled to accept by what you saw or heard.

An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know

Allah won't make you know anything. He has given you His signs, His book, the example of His prophet (peace be upon him), and your faculties to use.

But not had we all been forced to know he exists. Then we would all truly have the choice you mention above.

No. If you were made to know by direct communication from God speaking to you, everyone would submit, because God had spoken to them and told them what to do. In actual fact, that would be no choice.

The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?

God's communication is not the cause of tension in the world. People have free will. There will always be bad people and good. And each are free, in this world, to do as they please. People often say, well, if there was a God, why is there so much evil in the world? It is like they want intervention from God to stop it, or for Him to prevent it, and feel that somehow this not happening means there either isn't a God or that He is not powerful because He didn't stop it. Even if the examiner in a formal exam can see that the answers you are writing are wrong, he/she doesn't intervene to tell you that. You have your allotted time, at the end of which you pass or fail.

If we all simply knew he existed

If there was a pile of wood lying in an area, and the next day you came back and it had turned into a table, would you come to the conclusion that the pieces of wood had cut themselves up into pieces of the right size, arranged themselves in the right order, and fixed themselves together to become a table, without a maker? Maybe you would, but I doubt it.

Again the universe is full of signs of His existence, for you to contemplate and see. You personally may feel that the signs don't lead you to believe that there is an All-Powerful Creator, and that the universe came into being and arranged itself, but that is a conclusion that you have come to yourself, as you are free to do so, for God won't make you believe anything. Presumably, in your mind, you can justify your stance.

Through His creation, His books, His prophets, He has told you He exists, but if your faculties bring you to a different conclusion, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He has done a lousy job, and you cannot blame God for a conclusion you have come to using your free will. Nobody is made to or forced to believe anything.

and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't reject or rebel against something that doesn't exist).

You mean, that you believe doesn't exist. Or have you already made up your mind as a foregone conclusion that He doesn't? For you to know that something doesn't exist, you have to know what it is that you are saying doesn't exist. So, for you to say that God doesn't exist, you have to know what God is. What is God to you, and which sources are you deriving your idea of what God is, from?

To you, is God composed of three persons, one of whom is a son that he begot?
Or, are there multiple gods?
Are there two gods, one almighty and one not almighty?
Or, is there:
• One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.

The following is a short basic description of God, though there are more details in the Qur'an:

Say: "He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him." (Qur'an, 112)

This comparison to other subjects, that we learn from human teachers, leaves out the power that God would have to simply make us know what he wants. If God is all powerful, he is not limited in what information or how much information he can instantly put in our heads

Again, you are asserting your own belief that if God didn't do what you wanted Him to do, or do it how you personally wanted Him to do it, therefore He lacks power. This is faulty logic, and this point has been addressed above.

If you are sincerely desiring the truth, then I hope you will have an open mind and heart and will contemplate and consider seriously what is said.

Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

We're supposed to be strive to be good people as well as having a belief in Allah. Doing one makes the other much easier and I think this is what is being left out with your analysis. That's why the puzzle doesn't make sense to yourself and many other athiests.

Another way of looking at it is to look at the journey and not the destination.

That is a very good point aamisraab. Perhaps God wishse us to have the experience of seeking and perhaps the seeking is valuable in some way.

This prompts me to ask you what you think Allah should/does do with those who seek honestly but come to the wrong answers? Do you think that Allah makes us know the truth just after we die and then judges if we will follow him at that point (presuming we have lived a good and just life)? Or do you believe that he will punish people for not worshiping him even though they did not believe in him (or believed in other gods)?

 

[IAmZamzam]

There is an ahadith in which in the hereafter Allah asks several committers of ostensibly good acts, including a martyr, what they did, and they respond with their actions. Allah replies, "So you did; so it was ordained," and thrusts them all face first into hell. If this hadith is accurate, then the inverse of what it indicates must be as well.

Why does the subject always end up veering into whether atheists can go to heaven with you, Pygoscelis?

 

[Pygoscelis]

If God made you know what He wanted you to know (in the way that you are implying), I wonder what the chances are that you would have said, "But God, I need a human example to show me how to apply this, I need a book with it written down that I can read at my own leisure."

There would be no such need because God would make there be no such need. If God is all powerful then he can do that.

No. If you were made to know by direct communication from God speaking to you, everyone would submit, because God had spoken to them and told them what to do. In actual fact, that would be no choice.

Only if God forced us to submit. Knowing somebody commands something does not force you to obey. Just becaase we all knew Allah exists and what he wants doesn't mean we'd do it. There are plenty of muslims who (think they) know what Allah wants but still fail to do it, are there not?

I expect that there would be plenty more who even if they knew God exists, they actually WOULD turn against him. One could then truthfully call those people infidels (disobedient) instead of just disbelievers. You can't obey an authority that you don't beleive to exist.

An atheist is incapable of blasphemy, because blasphemy requires intent. Do you disagree?

God's communication is not the cause of tension in the world.

Certainly not the only cause. But can you really deny that religious tension and strife exists between those who beleive God wants A and those who believe God wants B? There are atheists vs theists, muslims vs christians, sunni vs shia, catholics vs protestants, each of them fighting for what they believe to be the truth. This religious tension could very easily have been avoided by a God having us all know who he really is and what he really wants. People would still be free to act how they will on that information.

Even if the examiner in a formal exam can see that the answers you are writing are wrong, he/she doesn't intervene to tell you that. You have your allotted time, at the end of which you pass or fail.

You go into a formal exam knowing who the teacher is, knowing which text book and material you were to study. You're not given a myriad of conflicting textbooks and teachers and left to wonder which material you will be graded on.

Through His creation, His books, His prophets, He has told you He exists, but if your faculties bring you to a different conclusion, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He has done a lousy job, and you cannot blame God for a conclusion you have come to using your free will. Nobody is made to or forced to believe anything.

No it doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but yes it does mean he could do a better job at communicating his message. He is not limited in his means of communication as humans are and would not be restricted to our normal means of communication, such as books and messengers. That he could have used better means of communication and chose not to is where my thoughts on this begin.

Again, you are asserting your own belief that if God didn't do what you wanted Him to do, or do it how you personally wanted Him to do it, therefore He lacks power. This is faulty logic, and this point has been addressed above.

No, you have this is exactly backwards. I am taking as a premise that he DOES have the power and that he has chosen not to use it and drawing my query from there.

 

[IAmZamzam]

So it is a query? In that case I already answered it with my first post.

 

[Insaanah]

If God is all powerful then he can do that.

He can do things that He wills and that befit His majesty. To show He is all powerful God doesn't have to do that. His power is manifest. If you are sincere, seek. Do your research and explore (you may well already have done this). Look at the concept of God in different religions. Does it make sense for Him to beget a child? Is He composed of three persons? Are there lots of him? Is there a major god and minor god? Or, is there just One eternal, immortal, indivisible God? How many versions are there within a religion of the main scripture? Are they scientifically sound? Is there any unchanged book, that all followers of a religion, no matter how diverse, follow the same single book? No versions. Traceable back to the time of revelation. Not a word has changed, etc etc. If you have already done all of that, sincerely trying to find guidance, and come to the conclusion that there is no God, and have created this thread, then perhaps your journey of exploration is not over yet...

There are plenty of muslims who (think they) know what Allah wants but still fail to do it, are there not?

That only holds if God had made them know something, which is the argument you are using, but He didn't. Islam is perfect, but not every Muslim is.

You can't obey an authority that you don't beleive to exist.

An atheist is incapable of blasphemy, because blasphemy requires intent. Do you disagree?

I can't say, because if you say you don't believe God exists, I don't know what it is that you are referring to when you're saying that you don't believe that God exists.

For you to know that something doesn't exist, you have to know what it is that you are saying doesn't exist. So, for you to say that God doesn't exist, you have to know what God is. What is God to you, and which sources are you deriving your idea of what God is, from?

To you, is God composed of three persons, one of whom is a son that he begot?
Or, are there multiple gods?
Are there two gods, one almighty and one not almighty?
Or, is there:
• One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.

Certainly not the only cause.

It is not a cause.

But can you really deny that religious tension and strife exists between those who beleive God wants A and those who believe God wants B? There are atheists vs theists, muslims vs christians, sunni vs shia, catholics vs protestants, each of them fighting for what they believe to be the truth. This religious tension could very easily have been avoided by a God having us all know who he really is and what he really wants.

Throughout the world, there are far more atheists plus theists, Muslims +christians, catholics + protestant than there are against. And, as I already said, there are good and bad in every community. There is far more strife over land, politics, etc, but religion is often used as a scapegoat.

That he could have used better means of communication and chose not to is where my thoughts on this begin.

I know they do, and I addressed that in my first post and brother Yahya addressed that in his first post in the thread too. The "Why did God not do such and such, and if God had done that, I would have believed, or would had the freedom to choose" scenario...You have the freedom to choose now. Take it.

Peace.