Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

[MadeenJibreel]

Re: To Grace Seeker

Who said the Holy Spirit leaves the scene with the departure of Jesus? Perhaps another way of understanding it would be this: Think of "sent" as not where the Holy Spirit is going, but where it comes from...which is God. I think you are too hung up on the coming and going aspect, when that isn't even the point. Christ is talking to His followers, men and women, and to comfort them when His body is gone, He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them. This is what happens when you get hung up on semantics.

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

 

[Keltoi]

Re: To Grace Seeker

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

I don't know about "official", but that is what I have been taught by the pastors and ministers in my life. By "reminder", I mean that Christ taught His followers that the Holy Spirit, a blessing from God, will be with those who accept Him as Lord and Savior. That blessing is the Holy Spirit. As for the use of the word "sent", I already explained that it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit "physically" traveling anywhere. It is a blessing upon those who follow Christ. I'm not sure how I can explain this to your satisfaction...if that is even possible.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: To Grace Seeker

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

You're explanation is full of contradictions now:

- if the Holy Ghost leaves the scene with departure of Jesus, that means he's moving, going, ...
- if however, "he never leaves them", then how can he "come back" (or how can he be "sent back" to them)? where from will he "be sent back"?



Either you got it wrong or the Bible. If he's always with them, how can he be sent back to them? Anyway, if Holy Ghost is God as Christians think, and if Christians think God is omnipresent, then going back-forth makes no sense, correct?

You are thinking way to physically, as if the Holy Spirit was made out of atoms and molecules, a substance that has physical properties and thus can only occupy one given set of space at a given moment in time. Such limitation are not placed on the Holy Spirit.

A river is said to flow from the mountains to the sea. Does that mean that the river actually leaves the mountains and no longer exists there when it enters the sea? The wind blows, we feel its movement, but we don't know where it comes from or where it goes. (Paraphrasing Jesus) If you fail to understand these simply things of the physical world, how can you expect to understand the things of God?

The Spirit is sent from the Father, but that does not mean that the Spirit leaves the Father any more than that the river leaves the mountains. The Spirit was present in the beginning, because as one aspect of who God is, the Spirit is always present.

If you like, I can set aside a thread for teaching about the Spirit, and the Trinity? I've never done that here in LI simply because I don't think that is what the purpose of this forum community is. I don't think that LI wants people "teaching" Christianity. But your questions show that you are struggling with understanding even some of the rudimentary concepts of our faith, and I don't know how to address all of them at once, for every answer produces 5 more questions. That's understandable, but it might be easier just to start at the beginning. However, it would require that you approach it as a time to actually learn what we think, not as a time to be constantly trying to figure out a refutation each step of the way. There will be plenty of time for that afterward.


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BTW, how did we get a thread with my name attached to it? :embarrass
Should I take this as some sort of special honor? oh:

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Re: To Grace Seeker

You are thinking way to physically, as if the Holy Spirit was made out of atoms and molecules, a substance that has physical properties and thus can only occupy one given set of space at a given moment in time. Such limitation are not placed on the Holy Spirit.

A river is said to flow from the mountains to the sea. Does that mean that the river actually leaves the mountains and no longer exists there when it enters the sea? The wind blows, we feel its movement, but we don't know where it comes from or where it goes. (Paraphrasing Jesus) If you fail to understand these simply things of the physical world, how can you expect to understand the things of God?

The Spirit is sent from the Father, but that does not mean that the Spirit leaves the Father any more than that the river leaves the mountains. The Spirit was present in the beginning, because as one aspect of who God is, the Spirit is always present.

If you like, I can set aside a thread for teaching about the Spirit, and the Trinity? I've never done that here in LI simply because I don't think that is what the purpose of this forum community is. I don't think that LI wants people "teaching" Christianity. But your questions show that you are struggling with understanding even some of the rudimentary concepts of our faith, and I don't know how to address all of them at once, for every answer produces 5 more questions. That's understandable, but it might be easier just to start at the beginning. However, it would require that you approach it as a time to actually learn what we think, not as a time to be constantly trying to figure out a refutation each step of the way. There will be plenty of time for that afterward.


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BTW, how did we get a thread with my name attached to it? :embarrass
Should I take this as some sort of special honor? oh:

Tell me: if Spirit does not have physical form (I agree here!), then what form he has? In fact, does he even have a form? So how can you expect people to believe Jesus was God, if you don't even know this "substance"?
Next: do you claim God is everywhere? Is he occupying the space? If yes, then in what form/substance? If still yes, would you say God is in places of dirt and similar? May He forgive me, but I'm referring to something you think God is, when He is not.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Never ever mind Grace Seeker, I just caught your view on this in another thread:

You claim:
But I believe that this was spirit, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are also spirit.

So you do claim God has a similarity to something? And also that God is a spirit? A form? A substance? Is so, is this substance in me, you, everywhere? In 4-D time-space continuum or in some kinda higher world? If yes, the God does occupy "something" (according to your claims), be it 4-D world, or X-D whatever the X stands for.

True or false?

PS You're literally making God dependent on "something" whatever that something is, so you are limited God to His own creations. How's that?

PS-2 Does the Bible say that The Father (as you call him) is the spirit?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Never ever mind Grace Seeker, I just caught your view on this in another thread:

You claim:
But I believe that this was spirit, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are also spirit.

So you do claim God has a similarity to something? And also that God is a spirit? A form? A substance? Is so, is this substance in me, you, everywhere? In 4-D time-space continuum or in some kinda higher world? If yes, the God does occupy "something" (according to your claims), be it 4-D world, or X-D whatever the X stands for.

True or false?

False.

Get ready for a metaphysical construct: God does not occupy any "something". Rather, all things exist in him.

PS You're literally making God dependent on "something" whatever that something is, so you are limited God to His own creations. How's that?

See what I just said.

PS-2 Does the Bible say that The Father (as you call him) is the spirit?

No. The Father and the Spirit are one being, but two different persons. What the Bible says is: "God is spirit."

 

[MadeenJibreel]

False.

Get ready for a metaphysical construct: God does not occupy any "something". Rather, all things exist in him.

OK, so that's even worse then I imagined what you believe in: before the creation, creations were not "in" God, after the creation - creations are "in" God? Are you saying "they are part of Him"? Like "we are living in God", "everything exist in God", etc...?

See what I just said.

No. The Father and the Spirit are one being, but two different persons. What the Bible says is: "God is spirit."

So who is in charge there? The Father? The Son? The Holy Ghost? 3 different persons...do they disagree? Ever? Can you pray to only one? Say to Holy Ghost?

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK, so that's even worse then I imagined what you believe in: before the creation, creations were not "in" God, after the creation - creations are "in" God? Are you saying "they are part of Him"? Like "we are living in God", "everything exist in God", etc...?

I think I just addressed this in one of the other threads we are both in.

So who is in charge there? The Father? The Son? The Holy Ghost? 3 different persons...do they disagree? Ever? Can you pray to only one? Say to Holy Ghost?

I don't know who is "in charge". I'm not sure that the concept of being "in charge" is applicable. I do know that the Son submits to the Father and that the Father and the Son together send the Holy Spirit. But if that answer does not suffice, I'll have to give it some more study and thought to provide a complete reply.

No, I don't believe they ever disagree. Though in his eathly experience, Jesus did not possess both a human will in addition to a divine will, but we see in his life that he did surrender that human will over totally to the divine will. Likewise, Jesus did not possess the same knowledge that the Father had and lived in full dependence on the Father.

Yes, praying to any one is the same as praying to all. That is why we think it silly to object to the idea of praying to Jesus, because that is nothing more and nothing less than simply praying to the one and only God. So, Christians can and do pray in, through, by, and to the Holy Spirit. Indeed when we don't know what or how to pray, the Spirit even intercedes for us, helping us to pray.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

I don't know who is "in charge". I'm not sure that the concept of being "in charge" is applicable. I do know that the Son submits to the Father and that the Father and the Son together send the Holy Spirit. But if that answer does not suffice, I'll have to give it some more study and thought to provide a complete reply.

No, I don't believe they ever disagree. Though in his eathly experience, Jesus did not possess both a human will in addition to a divine will, but we see in his life that he did surrender that human will over totally to the divine will. Likewise, Jesus did not possess the same knowledge that the Father had and lived in full dependence on the Father.

I think this is very important topic. See, when Christians say "all in the trinity are equal", and yet, the Son submits to the will of the Father (as you say) somehow raises another question. Another thing is that, if the Son and the Father together send the Holy Spirit, it feels like sending an angel rather than God sending God? I mean no Christian can say, i.e. "God sends Himself" for that simply doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if Holy Ghost really is sent then it appears that he submits to the will of the Son and the Father. Earlier we concluded that the Son submits to the will of the Father, now we have both Holy Ghost submitting to the Father just the same as the Son. The Bible tells us about the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. It says that the Father's Will will be done, not Son's will nor the will of the Holy Ghost.

Now we clearly see that it's the Father in control here. Or else we would be denying the Bible. I hope you can agree with me on this.

Another thing I have a problem with is that (in)famous (alleged) saying of Jesus (when allegedly being on the cross): ...why have you forsaken me?

Surely this alludes going against the Will of the Father. It also shows that Jesus didn't have all the answers (Jesus from the Bible, which doesn't mean the historical Jesus, messenger of Allah). So be it in a human body, form and shape or any other, Jesus is simply not equal to God, but that's exactly what the Christian definition is explicit about.

Somebody here is going against the explicit verses of the Bible and I feel it ain't the Muslims.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think this is very important topic. See, when Christians say "all in the trinity are equal", and yet, the Son submits to the will of the Father (as you say) somehow raises another question. Another thing is that, if the Son and the Father together send the Holy Spirit, it feels like sending an angel rather than God sending God? I mean no Christian can say, i.e. "God sends Himself" for that simply doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if Holy Ghost really is sent then it appears that he submits to the will of the Son and the Father. Earlier we concluded that the Son submits to the will of the Father, now we have both Holy Ghost submitting to the Father just the same as the Son. The Bible tells us about the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. It says that the Father's Will will be done, not Son's will nor the will of the Holy Ghost.

Now we clearly see that it's the Father in control here. Or else we would be denying the Bible. I hope you can agree with me on this.

Another thing I have a problem with is that (in)famous (alleged) saying of Jesus (when allegedly being on the cross): ...why have you forsaken me?

Surely this alludes going against the Will of the Father. It also shows that Jesus didn't have all the answers (Jesus from the Bible, which doesn't mean the historical Jesus, messenger of Allah). So be it in a human body, form and shape or any other, Jesus is simply not equal to God, but that's exactly what the Christian definition is explicit about.

Somebody here is going against the explicit verses of the Bible and I feel it ain't the Muslims.

As I said, I wasn't prepared to answer the question about being "in charge", or what you now term as "control". There is a mutual submission going on. That's going to be foreign to Muslim ways of thinking, but that is what i see not the answer you have given that you are wanting me to affirm.

I understand that you feel that someone is going against what the Bible teaches. I won't deny that you feel that way. I won't deny that it can be confusing at time. But I also won't deny that Jesus is God just because it doesn't feel right to some human mind when that is what I understand that the in fact Bible does teach, even if you disagree with my reading of it.

Lastly, you've already indicated that the Spirit couldn't be an angel because no angel would be spoken of as living "with you and will be in you".

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16)

 

[Mateen]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it .

Muslims do not need Bible for any proof as we believe the original message has been lost and replaced by faslehood. Since Christians believe in bible this referance has been given FOR Christians and NOT for muslims.

Its just a food for thought for Christians.

For us Quran is the Furqhan, meaning the criterion to judge right and wrong.

Wassalam.