Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

[Grace Seeker]

This discussion reminds me a song from my childhood:

Round and round the Mulberry Bush,
The monkey chased the weasel....
The monkey stopped to pull up his sock,
Pop! goes the weasel.


My only question is, Is the Christian the monkey and the Muslim the weasel, or vice versa?

 

[thirdwatch512]

thirdwatch I thought you became an atheist? did you have a change of heart?

I am an atheist. But I still accept a lot of Christian history as being true, such as the very well established fact that Timothy is written by Paul to Timothy (as the introduction of both 1 timothy and 2 timothy, first chapter, first verses say. The last verses of these letters also direct it toward Timothy.) anyone who reads these 2 books know that, as the first verses of both say such!!

That is why I question how someone could have "been in the seminary" yet not know something so basic as that.. I mean it is right in front of our eyes!!

Clearly, the person who claimed to be in the Seminary had not read 1 & 2 Timothy. That is all I am saying.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Has anyone been able to find this "Gospel of Timothy" that is mentioned in the opening post? If so, I missed it in reading through the thread.

The passage which originates this thread is quoted as saying

"Cast away demons using my name, heal the sick using my name, Pray to God using my name... but there will come a time that you shall not use my name anymore and you will be praying to God directly."

Believer also testifies that:

I have read the Bible many times and the only book in it that gave me a confirmation that Islam is coming is when Christ mentioned to his disciples...[and then he cites the above quoted passage].

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that there is no Gospel of Timothy in the Bible. Not only can I not find the above passage, I can't find a reading even remotely close to it in the Bible. If, as Believer has testified, that the only book that gives him confirmation that Islam is coming is the passage, then there is nothing in the Bible that gives confirmation of Islam.

Now, what you can read in what (presumably) Paul wrote (presumably) to Timothy is the following admonition, an admonition which I think would do us all well about this time:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Friends, if we are going to quote from the Bible, be sure that it is in the Bible to begin with. And if one is going to dispute the historicity of the text, don't just accept the word of the first nay-sayer that comes down the pike. There are many who will teach all sorts of things, some right, some true, but most of it half-true. They will lead you astray today from what is actually in the Bible, just as surely as Muslims think that all of Christendom has been led astray by those who wrote their own gospels rather than what many here presume must have been a different injeel delivered by Jesus.

 

[جوري]

I am an atheist. But I still accept a lot of Christian history as being true

That is very oxymoron(ic). You can't both be an atheist and accept such finite details of christian history, considering that the history you accept is biblical, and the only thing affiriming its own truth. In other words not much outside in the way of 'history books' to support that jesus even existed.

I'll accept Br. Believer's testimony on the account you are so mercurial and don't have solid convictions... this was just an obviously bromide remark on your part, because you hold Islam in contempt and can't accept that one as many before him have left christianity for Islam...

on a more personal note. It really isn't attractive to be in the half way house. Be something all along, and if you are going to make such a drastic change, then stick with it, so you don't come across so hypocritical...

I don't like Tartuffe(s) of any faction!


peace!

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is very oxymoron(ic). You can't both be an atheist and accept such finite details of christian history, considering that the history you accept is biblical, and the only thing affiriming its own truth. In other words not much outside in the way of 'history books' to support that jesus even existed.

While I don't accept Purest's view of history, I have to admit Thirdwatch, that she has a definite point. Claiming to be a Christian because you accept some of the history as true scores pretty high on the oxymoronic scale. Christianity isn't about history. It is about faith in God through Jesus Christ. If you don't buy into that, then you can be an atheists, an agnostic, you can even be Muslim or a Buddhist, but it is hard to understand how you would describe yourself as a Christian, just because you think that the books in the Bible were written by the people they have been historically identified with. In fact, I know of some Christians who would disagree with you on points such as that, but what makes them a Christian is that they do recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and accept the teachings of the scriptures with regard to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as true, even if they don't believe the Gospel accounts were actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but others who attached those names to the books.

 

[Umar001]

I think it's time to close this?

I mean, we had a bad start and it isn't looking up, the topic was going to sink from day one.

Anyone writing about Islam in the Bible should be ready to write a detailed account as to why his/her view is the best view and how come the interpretation changed and so forth, for two reasons:

1. If you don't you'll destroy the whole point of giving dawah, noone is going to listen to a person who has not done his research.

2. You'll do more damage than good, and cause brothers/sisters who are studying in this field more grief than ease.

Eesa

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it .

We mainly use the Bible to prove that the Bible (heavily) contradicts itself and to prove that Jesus is not son of God and not God Himself (he can't be both at the same time even by using the Christian logic?).

 

[MadeenJibreel]

JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

Now I don't quite remember the Holy Spirit saying anything: do you? I wouldn't think so. But guess what: it's very clear that Muhammed (saws) did talk about Jesus. And he (saws) was always truthful, even his worst enemy had to admit that.

I somehow fail to see that the verse you posted refers to the Holy Spirit. Another thing is: wasn't the Holy Spirit already there at the time? If so, and if Jesus is really talking about him in that verse, then it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Keltoi]

Now I don't quite remember the Holy Spirit saying anything: do you? I wouldn't think so. But guess what: it's very clear that Muhammed (saws) did talk about Jesus. And he (saws) was always truthful, even his worst enemy had to admit that.

I somehow fail to see that the verse you posted refers to the Holy Spirit. Another thing is: wasn't the Holy Spirit already there at the time? If so, and if Jesus is really talking about him in that verse, then it doesn't make any sense.

The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God, so of course He or "it" speaks. Alot of people "talked" about Jesus, that doesn't make them the "Comforter" referred to by Christ before His death. You cannot take one verse in isolation of the whole. I could copy and paste verse after verse referring to the Holy Spirit in relationship to God and Christ, but I don't think it would accomplish anything.

As for the Holy Spirit already existing, of course It did. As God has always existed. In the verse you quoted, Christ is referring to the Holy Spirit that will comfort His followers and remind them of His Word. Meaning that while Christ as Man will no longer be among them, the Holy Spirit will always be there.

 

[Umar001]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it .

There's a teaching among NT scholars that the Gospels developed in stages. I have seen divisions like this:

1. Historical Preaching of Jesus
2. The Memories of those Historical Events Passed in Oral Tradition
3. The Collection and Editing of the Oral Tradition​

Something like that above.

Now, the Gospels according to some scholars, do contain some true historical teachings of Jesus, though they also contain alot of stage two things.

So what Muslims, some Muslims, might say is that the prophecy of the Paraclete is a stage one event which might have been shaped differently in stage two.

Once one studies the compilation of the Gospels, it becomes clear just how open it can be to different possibilities.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God, so of course He or "it" speaks. Alot of people "talked" about Jesus, that doesn't make them the "Comforter" referred to by Christ before His death. You cannot take one verse in isolation of the whole. I could copy and paste verse after verse referring to the Holy Spirit in relationship to God and Christ, but I don't think it would accomplish anything.

As for the Holy Spirit already existing, of course It did. As God has always existed. In the verse you quoted, Christ is referring to the Holy Spirit that will comfort His followers and remind them of His Word. Meaning that while Christ as Man will no longer be among them, the Holy Spirit will always be there.

That's not the only verse talking about "the one who comes". Remember when Jews asked Yahya, peace upon him, (John the baptist), 3 questions and the final question was "are you the Prophet?", so they were expecting that Prophet to come, and the 2nd question was "are you the Messiah?". Obviously, he was not, because Jesus was the Messiah (the anointed one, the appointed one, the one sent by God as all other messengers of God).

So who is that Prophet, who is that Comforter? For he will only speak what he hears (what Gabriel tells him to speak, Gabriel was the one responsible for bringing down the Revelation), for he will speak in the Name of God. Every Surah of the Qur'an begins with "(English translation) In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful." I didn't hear the Holy Ghost saying anything like "In the Name of God..." and I don't believe there's anything like (related to Holy Ghost) in the whole Bible.

There are other proofs (and the OT is also not referring to Jesus, but to Muhammed, peace upon them both, in that famous prophecy).

The second part: by the scenario you told us, Jesus goes away, and the Holy Ghost "comforts" the people, but hold on: if Jesus is God, would he not be able to comfort the people himself? Obviously, he cannot, so somebody else must come after him.

 

[Keltoi]

That's not the only verse talking about "the one who comes". Remember when Jews asked Yahya, peace upon him, (John the baptist), 3 questions and the final question was "are you the Prophet?", so they were expecting that Prophet to come, and the 2nd question was "are you the Messiah?". Obviously, he was not, because Jesus was the Messiah (the anointed one, the appointed one, the one sent by God as all other messengers of God).

So who is that Prophet, who is that Comforter? For he will only speak what he hears (what Gabriel tells him to speak, Gabriel was the one responsible for bringing down the Revelation), for he will speak in the Name of God. Every Surah of the Qur'an begins with "(English translation) In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful." I didn't hear the Holy Ghost saying anything like "In the Name of God..." and I don't believe there's anything like (related to Holy Ghost) in the whole Bible.

There are other proofs (and the OT is also not referring to Jesus, but to Muhammed, peace upon them both, in that famous prophecy).

The second part: by the scenario you told us, Jesus goes away, and the Holy Ghost "comforts" the people, but hold on: if Jesus is God, would he not be able to comfort the people himself? Obviously, he cannot, so somebody else must come after him.

You still don't seem to fully understand what is meant by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit of God, which has always been. Christ's fleshly body is not on Earth any longer, as He returned to God. Therefor it stands to reason that it will be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, that will comfort them now.

I feel that I've actually felt the Holy Spirit working in my life, and I do indeed feel comforted by it. If you wish to see Muhammed as prophecied in the Bible and NT...well, that is your understanding and not mine. Perhaps it would be better to let it stand at that.

 

[Umar001]

Brother MadeenJibreel,

I think what you'd need to do is provide ample evidence that it is probable that the verse is speaking of Muhammad.

There are crucial points that would need to be answered if you supposed that the Prophecy is speaking about Muhammad, you should prepare answering those points and then provide the full writing.

Edit:

What I mean is this brother,

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This writing at chapter 14 claims that the Counselor is the Holy Spirit, now, you'd have to provide evidence that this Holy Spirit here is Muhammad, i.e. that the word Holy Spirit can be shown to be speaking of a Man and so forth, or that the word is not meanto be there, etc.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

You still don't seem to fully understand what is meant by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit of God, which has always been. Christ's fleshly body is not on Earth any longer, as He returned to God. Therefor it stands to reason that it will be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, that will comfort them now.

I feel that I've actually felt the Holy Spirit working in my life, and I do indeed feel comforted by it. If you wish to see Muhammed as prophecied in the Bible and NT...well, that is your understanding and not mine. Perhaps it would be better to let it stand at that.

We ppl feel many things, true, but no offense, you've got no proof that the comfort you feel is coming from the "Holy Ghost"...

 

[Trumble]

We ppl feel many things, true, but no offense, you've got no proof that the comfort you feel is coming from the "Holy Ghost"...

Nobody has ever had any "proof" of any direct religious experience, and that includes any prophet you care to name.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Brother MadeenJibreel,

I think what you'd need to do is provide ample evidence that it is probable that the verse is speaking of Muhammad.

There are crucial points that would need to be answered if you supposed that the Prophecy is speaking about Muhammad, you should prepare answering those points and then provide the full writing.

Edit:

What I mean is this brother,

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This writing at chapter 14 claims that the Counselor is the Holy Spirit, now, you'd have to provide evidence that this Holy Spirit here is Muhammad, i.e. that the word Holy Spirit can be shown to be speaking of a Man and so forth, or that the word is not meanto be there, etc.

akhi,

nobody can give you a definite proof (but do YOU really need that??), on the other hand, for some folks even if it was written Muhammad Rasulullah in their book itself, they would not believe. I'm not the one who is a pro in a Bible exegesis, and neither is anybody on this forum. I'm giving you my thinking here and a comparison that "this comforter" could be Rasulullah (saws) way before "the so-called Holy Ghost", who is a mystery in Christianity anyway (even though they think of him as part of the 3-in-1 god) and for whom they lack proof big time.

I'll give you proof, inshaAllah, when you bring me the original text of that verse, not english, not italian, etc. but the very original.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Nobody has ever had any "proof" of any direct religious experience, and that includes any prophet you care to name.

I had many - but they're personal so I can't share them here.

 

[Umar001]

akhi,

nobody can give you a definite proof (but do YOU really need that??), on the other hand, for some folks even if it was written Muhammad Rasulullah in their book itself, they would not believe. I'm not the one who is a pro in a Bible exegesis, and neither is anybody on this forum. I'm giving you my thinking here and a comparison that "this comfortert" could be Rasulullah (saws) way before "the so-called Holy Ghost", who is a mystery in Christianity anyway (even though they think of him as part of the 3-in-1 god) and for whom they lack proof big time.

I'll give you proof, inshaAllah, when you bring me the original text of that verse, not english, not italian, etc. but the very original.

Wa Aleykum Salam Akhi,

But akhi, when we say such and such is true we should bring evidence to a certain degree, like if a person came up to me and challenged my interpretation of a Qur'anic verse he would have to bring evidence, like someone gave me once an interpretation of a verse which said something like Fear Allah and follow me, and he said see the Prophet here is warning against Allah saying 'Fear Allah, he will lead you astray' and 'follow me I will guide you' this might sound ridiculous, so when we bring something out of the norm we bring evidence bro.

So for example, how you would tackle the Holy Spirit issue is that you could mention that this saying of Jesus was changed over a period of time to speak about the Holy Spirit in the Oral Tradition, this would be cool enough.

If I am not mistaken, I did not want to mention this as of yet, but I read a while ago from a Christian source that this addition of 'the Holy Spirit' is either missing from some manuscripts or is thought to be a natural insertion to the text. But I don't have the evidence so I cant quote it now.

But this is what I mean bro, to a Christian, you will sound like your trying to make evidence out of nothing, which can ruin dawah.

Your brother

Eesa

 

[MadeenJibreel]

Wa Aleykum Salam Akhi,

But akhi, when we say such and such is true we should bring evidence to a certain degree, like if a person came up to me and challenged my interpretation of a Qur'anic verse he would have to bring evidence, like someone gave me once an interpretation of a verse which said something like Fear Allah and follow me, and he said see the Prophet here is warning against Allah saying 'Fear Allah, he will lead you astray' and 'follow me I will guide you' this might sound ridiculous, so when we bring something out of the norm we bring evidence bro.

So for example, how you would tackle the Holy Spirit issue is that you could mention that this saying of Jesus was changed over a period of time to speak about the Holy Spirit in the Oral Tradition, this would be cool enough.

If I am not mistaken, I did not want to mention this as of yet, but I read a while ago from a Christian source that this addition of 'the Holy Spirit' is either missing from some manuscripts or is thought to be a natural insertion to the text. But I don't have the evidence so I cant quote it now.

But this is what I mean bro, to a Christian, you will sound like your trying to make evidence out of nothing, which can ruin dawah.

Your brother

Eesa

I actually did give evidence based on logical reasoning:
- the Holy Ghost never speaks, so he can't be the Comforter (not the speaking one at least)
- the Comforter will speak in the Name of God
- he will speak what he hears (not what he thinks to speak)
- he will come after Jesus departs
- etc.

But here's some stuff more detailed:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:



Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i)


Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)



Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2.
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19



"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:



It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:



Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.

1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:



"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).

4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

 

[Grace Seeker]

We mainly use the Bible to prove that the Bible (heavily) contradicts itself and to prove that Jesus is not son of God and not God Himself (he can't be both at the same time even by using the Christian logic?).

If that is what you use the Bible for, then I suggest that you stop using it. Because while you may not understand it, 2000 years of history show that it is understood "by Christian logic" to testify to the very things that you say that it disproves. To think that you are going to change 2000 years of history by your form of logic is to be so ego-centric in your view of the world that it means you obviously cannot see what others see. It is thus going to be your own spiritual myopica that is what it ultimately pointed out, not the contradictions or other things that you think are there, but truly exist only in your own mind and not in reality.