Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

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snakelegs said:
just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.
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I find the concept perfectly comprehensible; three aspects of the same thing.

That does not mean it represents any actuality, and of course I don't believe it does, but nonetheless it is absurd to claim it is 'illogical' or 'incomprehensible to Christians'. It is neither... however inconvenient that may be.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with 'the Gospel of Timothy', whatever that is supposed to be.
 
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believer said:
not really... in fact, it is also incomprehensible to christians...

As a child... I would say in the name of the Father, and of the saon and of the Holy Spirit... then as I grew up, the Bishops change the term into the Holy Ghost - no one uses the term Holy Spirit anymore in the contemporary Catholic Community... I don't know the reason....

whenever comfronted by a problem... I am normally confused who to ask for help?... I sometimes feel ashamed asking the Father directly because I am afraid I would insult Jesus if I bypass Him... so I just cannot find any means how to have a personal level of communications with the Father Almighty... because - I have to pass by Jesus... and then, here's the Holy Spirit... I definitely am clueless about the Holy Spirit... or the Holy Ghost for that matter. I am aware there are fruits of the spirit... and that one of them is not to be jealous... because true love is never jealous - this is of course coming from the mouth of human writers who made the present day bible.... Paul included. How can I not be jealous and God is jealous.... If we are all from God?... then Jealousy is only but a natural reaction with a justifiable basis.

you found it incomprehensible, which is why you left christianity, but obviously this does not present a problem for christians.
i also think your perception of jealousy or competition comes from your own projection and is not inherent.

suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

i have heard it said that monotheism was designed for the same purpose.

Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.

i have heard the same type of thing from people who have become christians.

In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!

i think you are very wrong here. a secular "christian" might think it is ok to live this way, but i do not think that a religious christian would condone this kind of life style. a practicing christian is no hedonist.
(btw, i was raised in no religion and have never belonged to one.)
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peace
 
Trumble said:
I find the concept perfectly comprehensible; three aspects of the same thing.

That does not mean it represents any actuality, and of course I don't believe it does, but nonetheless it is absurd to claim it is 'illogical' or 'incomprehensible to Christians'. It is neither... however inconvenient that may be.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with 'the Gospel of Timothy', whatever that is supposed to be.
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ok. you have proven me wrong.
non-christians find the trinity incomprehensible.....except trumble! ;D
 
snakelegs said:
peace
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you found it incomprehensible, which is why you left christianity, but obviously this does not present a problem for christians.
i also think your perception of jealousy or competition comes from your own projection and is not inherent.


On the contrary - I do comprehend it... but I cannot fully accept it since this is not explained by God in the holy books and it is also not coming from God... in fact - God disproves this trinity concept and it is written in the Qur'an. why would I hold on to a lesser truth if I already found a bigger truth?


suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

i have heard it said that monotheism was designed for the same purpose.

I beg to disagree... as a matter of fact, Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can. If you will check history, Muslim politicians enter politics as a last resort in order to achieve a common good. Check for instance the last coup of Thailand... after establishing a new government, the temporary president who is a Muslim gave the seat to another who is not a Muslim. Muslims are not really comfortable occupying political positions.

Coorection: Monotheism isn't "design for that purpose" .... Monotheism is not designed by man... this is an order from a divine super power. unlike Trinity - man innovated and invented it to serve that purpose.... so again - you are wrong here.


Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.
i have heard the same type of thing from people who have become christians.

I would really like to read or hear the testimonies of a former Muslim who became Christian... PLEASE... show me a link because this is actually unheard of for me. i.e., hearsay.


In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!


i think you are very wrong here. a secular "christian" might think it is ok to live this way, but i do not think that a religious christian would condone this kind of life style. a practicing christian is no hedonist.
(btw, i was raised in no religion and have never belonged to one.)

Can you tell the difference between a secular and a religious Christian?... in christianity - religiousity means - going to church every sunday and never missing it. I think you have confused yourself with the secular order and the religious order or the monastic order... As you see, secular order christians or priests for that matter are presupposedly religious since they never miss a mass specially not the sunday Masses. I have lived in the seminary for 2 years and I am still part of the X-Seminarian league of the seminary I came from. I see nothing wrong with christians as a people... and by the way, it was normal and it is no secret for priests to be drinking as well (during off duty hours)... as long as they can perform and officiate mass without any problem - even under the influence of licquor.... Perhaps it also depends on location... where they are. At any rate. This lifestyle is non-existent in a Muslim world. And they don't even have to be an Imam or a Scholar in order to be religious... since Muslims need to pray ceaselessly... aside from 5 times a day, in almost every move they make - there is an equivalent prayer.

another thing... pre marital relationship is also non-existent because Muslims consider this to be Harram... (the Qur'an really did great in placing a criteria for mankind... the concept of Halal and Harraam is good to make Man stay in the right path..). Therefore, No Illegal Sex, No Drugs, No Wine, No Women/ Girlfriends, No Sin! - these elements make the Muslims far from the influence of Satan.... I don't see this in the Religious Christian world.

In the Christian world... a pious Christian also lives this way... but he is surronded by Music, Images, Pictures, Ideas and Concepts which are not sterilized by the Harraam and Halal concepts. therefore, he is still unaware of many things that are actually harmful for his spirit. At any rate, God will be the judge of each one..because only Allah knows what is concealed within the hearts of men.
 
Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can.
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politics is day to day living, no wonder we are in such a mess when we don't even uderstand the very basics of life

It really annoys me when I am having to pick on Muslims instead of kuffaar on the site, some times I end up saying nothing to either for fear of accusation and or hate messages

<< check out this thread
 
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Salam Aleykum Sister,

Both ex Christians here right? :)

believer said:
When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

believer said:
If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.
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Sister, God himself has told us what is for us, we can argue God can use anyone or anything, and I agree, but the fact that God has told us the Qur'an and Sunnah are our guidance shows us that we don't need anything else.

Just as we need to find credence for the sayings of MUhammad we should then find credence for the sayings of Eesa? If not then why not?

As a side note, the Injeel was given to the Children of Isreal, not us, it's not for us and we don't need it, even if we had it. I know we love Eesa, and for us ex-Christians we feel we have a more closer reletionship to him, but we have to accept that he was not sent to us, and is not our immidiate prophet.

believer said:
The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.
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Sis I was a Christian too, and I spent most of my life reading the Bible for guidance. I also agree that we should not be harsh and dislike every non muslim, because from my personal experience it would have been hard for me to listen to a person who spoke down at me.

But this is a seperate issue from whether we can take the words in the Bible and try see truth in them. I would not take a hadith with no chain of narrators and try to pick the truth in it and then attribute it to Muhammad, and out of respect to Jesus or Moses or David or Solomon I refuse to attribute anything to them, incase I am wrong.

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...
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I think the above, dear sister, is missing the point exactly. For us to know if we are following the right way we need to check who said what. Scholars of Islam have mentioned endlessly, that the isnaad is an amazing part of the religion, without it people would have said what they want when they want, but with the help of Allah and the isnaad we can distinguish truth from falsehood and so check if we are following the right way.
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NoName55 said:
politics is day to day living, no wonder we are in such a mess when we don't even uderstand the very basics of life

It really annoys me when I am having to pick on Muslims instead of kuffaar on the site, some times I end up saying nothing to either for fear of accusation and or hate messages

<< check out this thread
Click to expand...

Salaam.... "believer shall not fear nor grief..." if you believe you are right - just feel free.
 
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Al Habeshi said:
Salam Aleykum Sister,


Salaaamualaikum.

I believe you are a speed reader... please check under my avatar brother.

Both ex Christians here right? :)

Correct

believer said:
When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.


Sister, God himself has told us what is for us, we can argue God can use anyone or anything, and I agree, but the fact that God has told us the Qur'an and Sunnah are our guidance shows us that we don't need anything else.

Just as we need to find credence for the sayings of MUhammad we should then find credence for the sayings of Eesa? If not then why not?

As a side note, the Injeel was given to the Children of Isreal, not us, it's not for us and we don't need it, even if we had it. I know we love Eesa, and for us ex-Christians we feel we have a more closer reletionship to him, but we have to accept that he was not sent to us, and is not our immidiate prophet.


God sent prophets among men... in every nation... The Messiah Eassah AS was sent not as a prophet for us... ok, I may agree.... but he is not just a prophet...., therefore, what is his significance to humanity if not? ... I have seen some real Christians who have had a higher degree of iman and deen than most of the Muslims I know, the caring they share for humanity - I haven't seen here in Saudi... moreover, discrimination among Muslims is also apparent. If you fall in line for Salah... an Arab will not close the gap between his feet to an Indian, Nepaly, Bangladeshi or Filipino... Shiek Salah says these gaps are sign that we are letting the devil occupy this line... and we are comitting the sin of discrimination. apparently, it is rampant everywhere... all we have to do is really examine ourselves...

the reason is... good manners are being taught much in the Bible... and you get these from the parables... and the beatitudes.

The Qur'an is a criterion... and the sunnah is the ways of the prophet... The Qur'an serves as a final warning for wrong doers. In pre-islamic Arabia - people practiced the paganistic ritual of killing their unwanted daughters... tribes quarrel over the smallest and most shallow reasons... it is but fitting for the Qur'an to be sent here. If it can curb the wrongdoings of a really worse society... then it must be good elsewhere.

Astagfirhullah if I am wrong... but I wish not to sound defending the Bible... if you believe we should totally ginore it... then I will not contest it.

However, the Qura'n mentions about talking in good manner with the people of the book? ... how will they relate with us if we don't know what they know because we are simply ignoring it?

For the Arab - it is quite easy to relate with the sunnah... but for a non-Arab - this is entirely alien to them.
and I believe you need to support this further... Moreover, we don't have any distinctions among the prophets - they are all slaves of Allah... and we must look at the sunnah (as in - Ways of the Prophet)... there is a danger of committing a form of shirk by becoming a fan of any particular prophet. Don't misinterpret me.


Sis I was a Christian too, and I spent most of my life reading the Bible for guidance. I also agree that we should not be harsh and dislike every non muslim, because from my personal experience it would have been hard for me to listen to a person who spoke down at me.

But this is a seperate issue from whether we can take the words in the Bible and try see truth in them.

The issue is about the clue of the coming of Islam in the Gospel according to Timothy." since the issue in the world is that - Islam is the only religion that preaches the Tawheed... Islamic Monotheism... all the rest isn't. The Main enemy is shirk... it is easy to fall into shirk. The Remebrance of Allah alone is actually a 100% requirement by Allah... no partners. and Muhammad and Eessah and all the other Prophets are HIS slaves and servants... and we as believers are HIS slaves and servants... therefore - there is no distinctions among the prophets - Am I right?

I would not take a hadith with no chain of narrators and try to pick the truth in it and then attribute it to Muhammad, and out of respect to Jesus or Moses or David or Solomon I refuse to attribute anything to them, incase I am wrong.

thats a different case... no comparison.

I think the above, dear sister, is missing the point exactly. For us to know if we are following the right way we need to check who said what.

Agreed... do you know Bukhari personally?... is he one of the Sahabbahs? ... and about the Sahabbahs... what make them different from a modern day revert?... as a matter of fact - the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not allow the writing of the hadiths during his time... there is a reason for this. I believe I know the reason...

since Man is created weak... he has a tendency to idolize another human being... all he need to do is read a book about him... or watch a movie about him... the more story tellers there are... the more idolized the subject is. and for this reason... the Prophet Rasullullah recomended reading and reciting of the Quran. The ways of the prophet was intended to be passed by word of mouth. However, due to some reason, the writing of hadiths came to place.

The Qur'an also gives a glimpse in the life of the Prophet Muhammad SAW... it is also a clear book. and is also self explanatory... the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT... for me who have read OT and NT my whole life definitely do not find anything unclear with this... in fact, the Qur'an merely illuminated what was false and what is truth in the adulterated Bibles. plain and simple.


Scholars of Islam have mentioned endlessly, that the isnaad is an amazing part of the religion, without it people would have said what they want when they want, but with the help of Allah and the isnaad we can distinguish truth from falsehood and so check if we are following the right way.
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The Christian term for Isnaad I believe is the Gift of Discernment. when a person is given this gift... it is easy for him to see truth from falsehood right away... in other words can also be connected with divine guidance. If one holds the truth in his heart and refuses to say it because of fear of anything... then he is as guilty as those hands that altered the Bibles...

I believe it is not merely saying what we want.

Salaam
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believer said:
On the contrary - I do comprehend it... but I cannot fully accept it since this is not explained by God in the holy books and it is also not coming from God... in fact - God disproves this trinity concept and it is written in the Qur'an. why would I hold on to a lesser truth if I already found a bigger truth?

i neither comprehend it or accept it. i really don't concern myself with it either.


suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

ouch - that silver font is hard to read. i do not follow this theory of yours, so will make no further comment on it.

I beg to disagree... as a matter of fact, Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can. If you will check history, Muslim politicians enter politics as a last resort in order to achieve a common good. Check for instance the last coup of Thailand... after establishing a new government, the temporary president who is a Muslim gave the seat to another who is not a Muslim. Muslims are not really comfortable occupying political positions.

Coorection: Monotheism isn't "design for that purpose" .... Monotheism is not designed by man... this is an order from a divine super power. unlike Trinity - man innovated and invented it to serve that purpose.... so again - you are wrong here.

i disagree with you on the above. whenever you have a group of people, no matter how large or small, you will find politics. religion has been used by muslims against muslims, just as it has in christianity.
islam is an entire social system as well as a complete way of life on the individual level. it includes a whole system of governance - how can you say it is not political? do you think the word "policial" is negative?
personally, i am also a monotheist. my point was just that the same argument you use re: the trinity concept, has been used against monotheism.


I would really like to read or hear the testimonies of a former Muslim who became Christian... PLEASE... show me a link because this is actually unheard of for me. i.e., hearsay.

not me! ;D
i wasn't speaking of a muslim becoming a christian. just that i have heard christians say how when they became christian, it completely changed their way of life, just like you were saying about how your way of life changed when you became muslim. common sense tells me that some muslims have no doubt become christians over the course of history. (though i would guess it is more often the other way around.) i have never run in to one, but then, i don't go to christian websites, or anti-islamic websites where these types would probably hang out.


Can you tell the difference between a secular and a religious Christian?... in christianity - religiousity means - going to church every sunday and never missing it. I think you have confused yourself with the secular order and the religious order or the monastic order... As you see, secular order christians or priests for that matter are presupposedly religious since they never miss a mass specially not the sunday Masses. I have lived in the seminary for 2 years and I am still part of the X-Seminarian league of the seminary I came from. I see nothing wrong with christians as a people... and by the way, it was normal and it is no secret for priests to be drinking as well (during off duty hours)... as long as they can perform and officiate mass without any problem - even under the influence of licquor.... Perhaps it also depends on location... where they are. At any rate. This lifestyle is non-existent in a Muslim world. And they don't even have to be an Imam or a Scholar in order to be religious... since Muslims need to pray ceaselessly... aside from 5 times a day, in almost every move they make - there is an equivalent prayer.

another thing... pre marital relationship is also non-existent because Muslims consider this to be Harram... (the Qur'an really did great in placing a criteria for mankind... the concept of Halal and Harraam is good to make Man stay in the right path..). Therefore, No Illegal Sex, No Drugs, No Wine, No Women/ Girlfriends, No Sin! - these elements make the Muslims far from the influence of Satan.... I don't see this in the Religious Christian world.

In the Christian world... a pious Christian also lives this way... but he is surronded by Music, Images, Pictures, Ideas and Concepts which are not sterilized by the Harraam and Halal concepts. therefore, he is still unaware of many things that are actually harmful for his spirit. At any rate, God will be the judge of each one..because only Allah knows what is concealed within the hearts of men.


i do not know any christians very well. of course you will find hypocrites among them - every relgion has its share. but i think that to a practicing christian, his religion means a great deal more than just showing up on sundays. i mean, you could say that to some muslims religiosity means who long are the pants and how long is the beard.
but i think you would find that a christian who was really following his religion would live his life similarly to a muslim. after all, they are your relatives. they too believe that premarital sex is haram, some believe that alcohol is haram too. you seem to be saying that muslims never do immoral acts. surely you can't be serious? last i knew, muslims were human too. you could say that a muslim who is following islam does not indulge in such things, but a christian could no doubt say the same thing. christians do not have halal and haram, but they certainly have the concept of good and evil.
are you saying that a christian cannot live a decent, moral life because he is surrounded by music, images etc etc? that may be your belief, but i would disagree. you can be just as moral with music playing and pictures on the wall as without. and you can be immoral with no music, no images etc etc. these are externals. it is the heart that counts.
if everybody just practiced their religion, the world would certainly look a lot different.
i am not making a case for christianity and can not, but don't mess with me and music or i will jump up and down and get very disagreeable :raging: because i have a Big Big Thing about music - so you do not want to go there!
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peace
 
believer said:
Salaam.... "believer shall not fear nor grief..." if you believe you are right - just feel free.
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Yeah right!

a small minority of mods on this site are real "geniuses" armed with delete post, give infraction and ban buttons. and they aren't afraid to use them on us. we have lost one account already and what good would come out of getting myself removed too?

at least as things are I can, every now and again, snipe at trolls and google shayukh when one of the good mods is online

"believer shall not fear nor grief..."
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do you think that I do not know what is in The Quraan and Sunnah?
Salaam

The only time we use what passes for Holy Bible is, to quote what is wrong, and when we need to show what is Islamic, we turn to Quraan and Sunnah and nothing else

edit: I hate it when people mutilate an Ayah or hadith to fit the occassion
 
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To believer -

You claim that Timothy wrote Timothy.. Which is wrong. Timothy is Paul's letter to Timothy. It is written by Paul.

You also go on to claim that it is a Gospel.. "Timothy's Gospel."

Then you say that the Comforter is speaking of muhammad, when it clearly says that the Disciples will be alive when the Comforter comes.

Now I hate to be mean, but are you sure you were in the Seminary? Any Christian with the slightest bit of knowledge would not make some of the silliest claims, as you have made.

Or are you a teenager who is a muslim who makes claims to try and act cool, and gain attention?

Or maybe you were just a very faithless "christian" while in the seminary.

Either way, no offense but I really am questioning your level of kwnoeldge on Chrisitianity.. It seems to be very low. Perhaps you SHOULD go to a Seminary and direct your questions to a Monk, and they can answer them for you.
 
thirdwatch I thought you became an atheist? did you have a change of heart?
 
believer said:
Salaaamualaikum.

I believe you are a speed reader... please check under my avatar brother.
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Ops, sorry bro.

believer said:
God sent prophets among men... in every nation... The Messiah Eassah AS was sent not as a prophet for us... ok, I may agree.... but he is not just a prophet...., therefore, what is his significance to humanity if not? ... I have seen some real Christians who have had a higher degree of iman and deen than most of the Muslims I know, the caring they share for humanity - I haven't seen here in Saudi... moreover, discrimination among Muslims is also apparent. If you fall in line for Salah... an Arab will not close the gap between his feet to an Indian, Nepaly, Bangladeshi or Filipino... Shiek Salah says these gaps are sign that we are letting the devil occupy this line... and we are comitting the sin of discrimination. apparently, it is rampant everywhere... all we have to do is really examine ourselves...
Click to expand...

Trust me I know what you mean, I have had it happen to me, but the greatest sin is to, according to Islam, ascribe partners to God, and to lie on GOd, to say GOd has a son or daughter or wife or mother or board of trustee that He has to consult, discrimination and killing is not as bad as saying God has a son or daughter or the likes, let us not use our own standards but God's standards.

I think we agree on alot of the other things, but the bits below:

believer said:
Agreed... do you know Bukhari personally?... is he one of the Sahabbahs? ... and about the Sahabbahs... what make them different from a modern day revert?... as a matter of fact - the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not allow the writing of the hadiths during his time... there is a reason for this. I believe I know the reason...

since Man is created weak... he has a tendency to idolize another human being... all he need to do is read a book about him... or watch a movie about him... the more story tellers there are... the more idolized the subject is. and for this reason... the Prophet Rasullullah recomended reading and reciting of the Quran. The ways of the prophet was intended to be passed by word of mouth. However, due to some reason, the writing of hadiths came to place.

The Qur'an also gives a glimpse in the life of the Prophet Muhammad SAW... it is also a clear book. and is also self explanatory... the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT... for me who have read OT and NT my whole life definitely do not find anything unclear with this... in fact, the Qur'an merely illuminated what was false and what is truth in the adulterated Bibles. plain and simple.
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It's not just about bukhari, people before him had collections, we don't accept bukhari because of the name, rather because of the checking and high level which it has. Scholars have checked it over and over, what makes him different from any other revert is that he was extremely good a memorising and an extremely honest person, as well as intelligent. There are Muslims like that, and those tend to end up being scholars.

The matter of the prophet not allowing ahadith to be written by him, maybe you should read the articles on load-islam, since the prophet did allow some writings to be written of what he said and done.

Brother, you said, the Qur'an confirms the OT and NT, 'the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT' please provide the verses, I'd be interested.

believer said:
The Christian term for Isnaad I believe is the Gift of Discernment. when a person is given this gift... it is easy for him to see truth from falsehood right away... in other words can also be connected with divine guidance. If one holds the truth in his heart and refuses to say it because of fear of anything... then he is as guilty as those hands that altered the Bibles...

I believe it is not merely saying what we want.

Salaam
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I think you are mistaken, the Christian term of Gift of Discernment would be a gift of Ilm ul Ghayb or maybe a Karama (type or miracle?) Christians do have a concept of the Isnaad, if one looks at the church fathers, they did quote others to try and provide some sort of isnaad, but their methods do not stand up to scrutany. Also, if we go along with the GIft of Discernment, then one would have to decided who to listen to, since it varies from Christian to Christian.

Your Brother Eesa
 
Sooo (skipped last couple of pgs), how again does a letter to Paul, a person than muslim scholars and contemporaries blame for "corrupting" early christian understandings, can possibly predict the coming of Islam?

Seems like alot of squinting and selective reading to me :)
 
:sl:

The Qur'an does confirm the previous Revelations, not the OT and NT though, but Tawrat, Zabuur, Injeel, and Revelations given to Ibrahim (as) and other Messengers of Allahu ta'ala. It confirms that they were Revealed, not that their current contents it the correct one (of those that are still present, but which ones are those, if any?)
 
Isambard said:
Sooo (skipped last couple of pgs), how again does a letter to Paul, a person than muslim scholars and contemporaries blame for "corrupting" early christian understandings, can possibly predict the coming of Islam?

Seems like alot of squinting and selective reading to me :)
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Paul was a bounty hunter. He hunted down people who believed Jesus is a messenger of Allah. BTW, who said Paul wrote anything of the Bible? I think not even Christians agree on who the real writers of the NT are ......

Muslims never claimed (by my knowledge) that Injeel is the OT. It simply cannot be the same.
 
MadeenJibreel said:
Paul was a bounty hunter. He hunted down people who believed Jesus is a messenger of Allah. BTW, who said Paul wrote anything of the Bible? I think not even Christians agree on who the real writers of the NT are ......

Muslims never claimed (by my knowledge) that Injeel is the OT. It simply cannot be the same.
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Its pretty established which letters Paul wrote both by christian and secular scholars. They called the 'Pauline Letters'. There are also psedo-Pauline works that are written claiming to be Paul but for various reasons are generally thought to be written by different authors for different purposes. Timothy is one of them.

So then if you want to argue that Timothy proclaims Islam, then you have to ask how is it a corruption of a corruption (from a Islamic perspective) predicts Islam?

My answer would be it doesnt and folks are just fighting windmills^o)
 
Isambard said:
Its pretty established which letters Paul wrote both by christian and secular scholars. They called the 'Pauline Letters'. There are also psedo-Pauline works that are written claiming to be Paul but for various reasons are generally thought to be written by different authors for different purposes. Timothy is one of them.

So then if you want to argue that Timothy proclaims Islam, then you have to ask how is it a corruption of a corruption (from a Islamic perspective) predicts Islam?

My answer would be it doesnt and folks are just fighting windmills^o)
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The letters are not important, and I never mentioned Timothy (except in this very sentence). What is important for Muslims is a fact and undeniable truth that the Qur'an tells us that the final Messenger Muhammed (saws) of Allahu ta'ala was forecasted in the previous Revelations, i.e. Injeel (Revelation given to Jesus, peace upon him).
 
MadeenJibreel said:
The letters are not important, and I never mentioned Timothy (except in this very sentence). What is important for Muslims is a fact and undeniable truth that the Qur'an tells us that the final Messenger Muhammed (saws) of Allahu ta'ala was forecasted in the previous Revelations, i.e. Injeel (Revelation given to Jesus, peace upon him).
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Thats all well and good by the topic of this thread is How Timothy predicts Islam :P
 

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